Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct?
 

So which of these bibles get it right? The ones that say he or God?

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I think Prax has made this point over and over, but I will iterate it again...lol

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: He was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice the subject of verse 15 is God. Paul is talking about the house of God, the church of God. And then Paul says in verse 16 "He was manifest..."

It only flows from normal grammar that the "He" in verse 16 is referring to God

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Right!

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Paul was not writing to Timothy to explain how God became a man..but rather about the mystery of godly living and Paul demonstrates that the man Christ lived and practiced such a life for our example

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

.

Disagree:

Christ is not the subject matter nor is He mentioned; God is.

1Tim 4 contunues the thought. Its about God, and His ways..

1 Timothy 3:16 reveals God as Jesus Christ...



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Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Hoo boy. That takes a study of manuscript evidence. Basically two lines of manuscripts have come to us. The catholic ones, from which almost all modern translations are derived, and the Received text which the kjv came from.

The catholic ones are the ones referred to when we see footnotes that say such-and-such is not in the two oldest manuscripts. Those two are the codex Sinaticus and the codex Vaticanus. The Sinaiticus was found on mt Sinai in a monastery and was used for starting fires by the monks there. The Vaticanus was found on a shelf, after the Vatican had been plundering everything they could be their hands on, and no one knows where it originally came from.

Oldest is not always most accurate. Look at the oldest religious organization, the catholic church, to see that.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Context is King..chapter 3 is what we are dealing with :)

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

It is the battle between the Majority text and the Alexandrian text. Unfortunately the religous world has embraced the Alexandrian. The only current Bibles Im aware of based on the Majority (Byzantine) text are the King James, New King James, and the World English Bible. The King James itself is actually from a certain strand of the Majority text.

A few weeks ago I attempted a discussion on the Godhead with Matt Slick the owner of CARM. We could not get past the first round. He spent much time trying to discredit the Majority text and insisting it is false.

Altho Oneness doctrine does not stand or fall on the difference it certainly makes a difference.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

If that is true why do you argue what the word manifest means?

Your ansswer assumes the reading "God was manifest in flesh"...see other thread for what the word manifest means

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

From time to time I consult my Geneva 1599 Bible to see what the men of old had to say about certain scriptures. I know that old doesn't always mean accurate, but I like to get the feel of what people 500 years ago thought.

It's a little hard to read if we don't know our scriptures. The English alphabet used i's for j; u's for v's; and v's for u's.

And without controuersie, great is the mysterie of godlinesse, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, iustified in the Spirit, seene of Angels, preached vnto the Gentiles, beleeued on in the world, and receiued vp in glorie.
I Timothy 3:16 Geneva Version

Kind of reminds me of the KJV which uses the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

(Acts 12:4)KJV


And when he had caught him, he put him in prison, and deliuered him to foure quaternions of souldiers to be kept, intending after the Passeouer to bring him foorth to the people. Acts 12:4 Geneva 1599 Version


Easter is a pagan holiday always celebrated the first Sunday after the first full moon, after the Spring Equinox.

Passover sometimes coincides with pagan Easter, which would be one reason why the Catholic Church lumped Christianity's risen Christ and Jewish passover remembrance in with the pagans. Well, I digressed from the subject....

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

God is Jesus and Jesus is God. I like how most of the versions make the point of saying this. Those who deny the deity of Christ are lost and going to Hell for their denial of Jesus being the I AM. I am so sick and tired of these false Christians denying the deity of Jesus, saying He was just a man. Those who do so spit on Christ and the sacrifice He made on the Cross.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Actually those who say He was a "god man" is not truly honoring the Son,Oneness treat the Son of God as a piece of flesh for God to wear and in the end He will be disposed of because He will no longer be needed.

So Jesus was sent to die for all so that those in him could live forever except him?

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Jesus is mentioned in verse 13. 1 Tim 4 is about those who depart from the faith. The faith it refers to is the same faith made mention of in 1 Timothy 3:13... the faith which is in Christ Jesus.. Therefore we have the faith which is in Christ Jesus being talked about both before and after 1 Timothy 3:16. This doesn't mean verse 16 refers to Jesus but surely you'll agree with me that contextually it does leave us with that possibility.

Couple this with the fact that we don't have any evidence of the church Fathers quoting this verse to establish the deity of Christ and the evidence begins to have some weight on the side that the verse is about Jesus and not God.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I'm not interested in nailing down that the reading I proposed is the correct reading. I'm only interested in having yall agree that either reading is possible. Why do I want that? Because it's the truth and because it shows that some bibles contain an error: either those bibles with he are in error or those bibles with God are in error. This shows that its possible for the scriptures to contain errors. Since it is possible for them to contain errors then we cannot claim that any bible we have is without error. That means we cannot claim any bible we have is infallible. Sure we can claim the originals were infallible but what good does an infallible book that we don't possess do us?

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Amen and amen.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I'll check when Gabriel delivers my Dead Scroll this morning.:thumbsup

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Come on I say "he", "Jehova", "Dios", "El", when referring to God often. there is no error it is just a different word for referring to God.

The Bible does plenty of Good, so the question is really moot.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Yes, there are versions that are blatantly false, NIV/TNIV are two of these. That is because they did wanted the original documents to say something that they did not say, and they changed it. Outside of around 100-200 places where there are disagreements, all of the old documents are in agreement. Further, more than 90% of those situations are no longer than one word. In addition, there are only three places that are adversly affected by this, Mat 6:13, John 5:4, and 1 John 5:7. No Biblical doctrine is undone by this.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Hi !The two "oldest" texts says :
1)WHO (not he!) was manifested in flesh.
2)WHICH WAS MANIFESTED IN FLESH
this originaly word by word translated (i am greek)
and the Majority Text says:
3)GOD MANIFESTED IN FLESH
in greek text many times writes shrter words for example jesus is writen originali :ΙΗΣΟΥΣ but in the text it is writen :ΙΣ
this means for the word :
HE=ΑΥΤΟΣ and we must then have ΑΣ but we dont have text like this
WHO=ΟΥΤΟΣ and we correct have ΟΣ ,but this is gramatical wrong .
WICH=ΟΥΤΟ and is grammaticaly correct ..if he is speaking anout the mistery wich manifested.
GOD=ΘΕΟΣ and we have ΘΣ thats why some texts has ΟΣ without the - int middle of O.
also there are references from 1-2-3 century apostolic fathers.
*sorry for my english!:):heeheehee

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

This implies use of a logical fallacy. The promotion of the "two oldest" implies they're the most accurate, since they're closer to the date the texts were first written. Just because something is older does not mean it's more accurate. Consider denominations and ask yourself if Catholicism is most accurate because its oldest.

These two oldest are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus. The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican after Catholics plundered the world, and it's not known where the codex was even found. The Sinaiticus was found in a monastery on Mt Sinai used for starting fires!

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I am 100% with you man! (read the entire post) i also prefair the Majority text ! i think this is the original.
Vaticanus and Sinaiticus also disagree and contradicte one the other in many many places but today translators says "the older the better" :thumbsup

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

No where does the word godliness refers to the God head. Both trinity and oneness people try to make Jesus a God using 1Ti 3:16

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Q
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness ,

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Godliness is the issue but it still proves Jesus is God. It is actually showing even God in the flesh had to live a godly life by reliance on the Spirit and not the flesh, since this is a lesson to us on how this grand mystery of being godly really works. If God in flesh had to rely on Spirit to be justified, how much more do we?

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Amen. I think that very thought often.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

1Ti 3:16 καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

The word translated "godliness" is eusebias.

Barnes: Of godliness - The word “godliness” means, properly, piety, reverence, or religiousness. It is used here, however, for the gospel scheme, to wit, that which the apostle proceeds to state. This “mystery,” which had “been hidden from ages and from generations, and which was now manifest” Col_1:26, was the great doctrine on which depended “religion” everywhere, or was that which constituted the Christian scheme.

Roberson: The mystery of godliness (to tēs eusebeias mustērion). See 1Ti_3:9 “the mystery of the faith,” and 1Ti_2:2 for eusebeia. Here the phrase explains “a pillar and stay of the truth” (1Ti_3:15). See in particular 1Co_1:27. “The revealed secret of true religion, the mystery of Christianity, the Person of Christ” (Lock).

Vincent: The mystery of godliness (τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον)
(a) The connection of thought is with the truth (1Ti_3:15), and the words mystery of godliness are a paraphrase of that word. The church is the pillar and stay of the truth, and the truth constitutes the mystery of godliness. (b) The contents of this truth or mystery is Christ, revealed in the gospel as the Savior from ungodliness, the norm and inspiration of godliness, the divine life in man, causing him to live unto God as Christ did and does (Rom_6:10). See 1Ti_1:15; 1Ti_2:5; Col_1:26, Col_1:27. According to the Fourth Gospel, Christ is himself the truth (Joh_14:6). The mystery of godliness is the substance of piety = mystery of the faith (1Ti_3:9). (c) The truth is called a mystery because it was, historically, hidden, until revealed in the person and work of Christ; also because it is concealed from human wisdom, and apprehended only by faith in the revelation of God through Christ. (d) The genitive, of godliness, is possessive. The mystery of godliness is the truth which pertains or belongs to godliness. It is not the property of worldly wisdom. Great (μέγα) means important, weighty, as Eph_5:32.

end of quotes.

So then, the 'mystery of godliness' is a term that means 'the hidden secret of the true religion', or the hidden secret of piety. This is born out by the Reina Valera translation, "Y sin cotradicción, grande es el misterio de la piedad:" where eusebius is translated as piedad, or piety.

Strong's: From G2152; piety; specifically the gospel scheme: - godliness, holiness.

The Latin Vulgate is thus: et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum.

So again, the word "godliness" does NOT mean 'right and moral living' in the sense of ethics, but rather means the right and proper relationship between man and God, and thus is synonymous with 'true religion'.

So the apostle is saying that there is no controversy or argument about the fact that the 'mystery' or core doctrine of the true faith is 'God was manifest in the flesh...' etc.

This not only establishes the deity of Christ, but refutes trinitarianism, which claims the trinity is the core doctrine or mystery of the true faith, and any other -ism which denies the deity of Christ. Without the deity of Christ, there is no eusebius, or true religion or worship of God.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I am tired, and I cannot write Greek on my computer, but I will take a swing at it.

In early Greek manuscripts of the NT, some manuscripts read "he" and other manuscripts read "God". They are evenly split between the manuscripts.

For what it is worth, the earliest manuscripts read "he" and not "God". If I recall, the variation entered the textual tradition around the 5th or 6th century.

It is not a theological issue. It is a textual criticism issue.

The history of this textual problem is covered in the Textual Commentary of the NT, by Metzger.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

The issue for me is rather simple.

"He" is spelled almost exactly the same as "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16. The difference is seen in comparing an omicron with a theta.

Soem scribe mistook "os" for "ths" and pesto, the tradition for a different textual variant is formed.

It is a lot easier to show on a piece of paper. These computers have their limitations :)

It is a simple spelling error.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Never heard anyone argue godliness means godhead

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Metzger also uses this spelling example as a case study. Either way, it s a simple transmission error. One sleepy scribe made a mistake and others copied it when they copied his copy.

Easy stuff.

me neither.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

That's fine with me. Most textual issues are quite complex. This one, is easy.

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

I'm not sure what all the debating is for.......we all KNOW the KJV is RIGHT!!!! It was good for Peter James, John and Paul....so it's good nuff for me!:laffatu

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Here is a link to the NET Bible:

https://net.bible.org/#!bible/1+Timothy+3

See footnote 24 on the right side of the page, as it pertains to 1 Timothy 3:16.

It argues favorably and convincingly for "He".

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

There are many references from apostolic "fathers " that says GOD not HE .
ΟΣ is not HE ,is WHOM and this is not grammatical correct to put there!

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

if you want is not necessarily to learn greek (for me is easyer than english:)
You can read the Majority Text here:
http://www.majoritytext.com/
this is a very good translation directly from the Original greek Text to English.
for example looke this passage:

Μ.Τ 11 And I am no longer in the world, yet these are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name which You have given to Me, that they may be one just as We are

KJV
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we

Do you see the different "those whom" and "your name wich "?

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

Re: Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct
 

:thumbsup