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-   -   Ministers in Adultery (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=37442)

answers 11-12-2011 08:42 PM
Ministers in Adultery
 
Restoration to a place of ministry?

What about having an affair over the Internet? Is that adultery?

After you've answered these question tell me why these particular men become so cruel and mean spirited and arrogant and pompous? Is the idea that what doesn't kill me on makes me stronger, carried over into the idea of moral failure?

Its as though they are waving in your face that their adulteress past will never stop henceforth neither will anything else.

Restoration? A license to shed more blood?

RandyWayne 11-13-2011 12:57 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Huh?

Timmy 11-13-2011 08:23 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 1113277)
Huh?
I think "answers" already has the answer. ;)

CC1 11-13-2011 08:49 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
I wasn't aware that all of them become "so cruel and mean spirited and arrogant and pompous".

I am sure some do thinking the best defense is a good offense but I know others who either are sincerely meek or fake it as they think it is the best chance of them keeping their ministry intact.

My pet peeve is that virtually none of these guys confess on their own. They only become repentant when they are found out and they risk losing the only thing most of them know how to do for a living, their ministry.

My second pet peeve is that most of them either don't step down at all or step down for a very short period of time for "restoration". Do I believe in restoration? Absolutely but it should be at first for their souls salvation and not to keep them in a pulpit. It should be a very long time, if ever, before they resume ministry in my opinion. I think I would tend to believe and trust one who came forward on their own and confessed their sin but I probably will never know because I don't know of any who have done that.

Hoovie 11-13-2011 09:01 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Yeppers. CC1 yer right on this.


About the "Affair on the Internet" question though - that is very subjective.

answers 11-13-2011 09:10 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
CC1, I believe you bring up a very valid point. I know of only one minister that I can think of ever confessing his failure prior to being caught. He remained a humble man and even more so after the fact.

answers 11-13-2011 09:13 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie (Post 1113309)
Yeppers. CC1 yer right on this.


About the "Affair on the Internet" question though - that is very subjective.
I'm very curious to hear you elaborate more on the subjective aspect of an Internet affair.

I believe that most often an affair is emotional before it is sexual but before I elaborate and for the sake of constructive dialogue I am very open to your thoughts regarding the matter.

Sherri 11-13-2011 09:38 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1113308)
I wasn't aware that all of them become "so cruel and mean spirited and arrogant and pompous".

I am sure some do thinking the best defense is a good offense but I know others who either are sincerely meek or fake it as they think it is the best chance of them keeping their ministry intact.

My pet peeve is that virtually none of these guys confess on their own. They only become repentant when they are found out and they risk losing the only thing most of them know how to do for a living, their ministry.

My second pet peeve is that most of them either don't step down at all or step down for a very short period of time for "restoration". Do I believe in restoration? Absolutely but it should be at first for their souls salvation and not to keep them in a pulpit. It should be a very long time, if ever, before they resume ministry in my opinion. I think I would tend to believe and trust one who came forward on their own and confessed their sin but I probably will never know because I don't know of any who have done that.
I only know one man who came forward and confessed before being caught. I have utmost respect for him for his courage and conviction.

Anyone who gets caught up in adultery should have to sit down for a long while and be taught and mentored, and closely monitored by an accountability partner. It infuriates me when preachers get caught in an affair and they are right back in the pulpit, because it's the only way they know to make any money!

AreYouReady? 11-13-2011 09:58 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Considering that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29) there should be a policy in place for restoration because although adultery is a very serious sin against our Holy God and the Spouse, it is not an unpardonable sin.

Cutting them off entirely from the ministry is a stumbling block for the offender to be restored to God. But if the church admonishes the offender and does everything it can to restore him to God and he continues his adultery, then the sin is solely on his shoulders and not on the church.

Hoovie 11-13-2011 12:28 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113311)
I'm very curious to hear you elaborate more on the subjective aspect of an Internet affair.

I believe that most often an affair is emotional before it is sexual but before I elaborate and for the sake of constructive dialogue I am very open to your thoughts regarding the matter.
Don't have much in the way established thoughts... Just that someone who viewed Porn is simply not the same as committing adultery - at least not in the way of justification for divorce.

Timmy 11-13-2011 12:37 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie (Post 1113326)
Don't have much in the way established thoughts... Just that someone who viewed Porn is simply not the same as committing adultery - at least not in the way of justification for divorce.
Are you sure? Jesus said unfaithfulness justifies divorce, and he said someone who has lusted in his heart has committed adultery (in his heart). Is "heart adultery" a sin? Is "real" adultery a worse sin?

Pastor Keith 11-13-2011 12:45 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1113308)
I wasn't aware that all of them become "so cruel and mean spirited and arrogant and pompous".

I am sure some do thinking the best defense is a good offense but I know others who either are sincerely meek or fake it as they think it is the best chance of them keeping their ministry intact.

My pet peeve is that virtually none of these guys confess on their own. They only become repentant when they are found out and they risk losing the only thing most of them know how to do for a living, their ministry.

My second pet peeve is that most of them either don't step down at all or step down for a very short period of time for "restoration". Do I believe in restoration? Absolutely but it should be at first for their souls salvation and not to keep them in a pulpit. It should be a very long time, if ever, before they resume ministry in my opinion. I think I would tend to believe and trust one who came forward on their own and confessed their sin but I probably will never know because I don't know of any who have done that.
The reason they don't confess is they will lose everything. Because there is not restoration, you won't come clean.

Hoovie 11-13-2011 01:32 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Timmy, Jesus was making the point that God sees and knows all things.

For example we would judge all porn viewing as "sinful" but God actually knows not only if someone views porn but also whether they committed adultery in their heart. We don't have that ability.

answers 11-13-2011 01:41 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie (Post 1113326)
Don't have much in the way established thoughts... Just that someone who viewed Porn is simply not the same as committing adultery - at least not in the way of justification for divorce.
What about engaging in sexual acts with another person via the Internet? Cyber sex, the exchange of illicit photos and so forth?

answers 11-13-2011 01:43 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Ftr viewing pornagraphy can be just as destructive as the act of adultery.

aegsm76 11-13-2011 02:17 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1113308)
I wasn't aware that all of them become "so cruel and mean spirited and arrogant and pompous".

I am sure some do thinking the best defense is a good offense but I know others who either are sincerely meek or fake it as they think it is the best chance of them keeping their ministry intact.

My pet peeve is that virtually none of these guys confess on their own. They only become repentant when they are found out and they risk losing the only thing most of them know how to do for a living, their ministry.

My second pet peeve is that most of them either don't step down at all or step down for a very short period of time for "restoration". Do I believe in restoration? Absolutely but it should be at first for their souls salvation and not to keep them in a pulpit. It should be a very long time, if ever, before they resume ministry in my opinion. I think I would tend to believe and trust one who came forward on their own and confessed their sin but I probably will never know because I don't know of any who have done that.
Great post!!!

aegsm76 11-13-2011 02:18 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113337)
Ftr viewing pornagraphy can be just as destructive as the act of adultery.
I would find it much easier to forgive my spouse for viewing porn, than for an act of adultery.
I agree that it can be just as destructive.

Amanah 11-13-2011 03:44 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1113327)
Are you sure? Jesus said unfaithfulness justifies divorce, and he said someone who has lusted in his heart has committed adultery (in his heart). Is "heart adultery" a sin? Is "real" adultery a worse sin?
This topic reminds me of an unfortunate incident that happened to an Ultracon female friend of mine. My friend is a very, very sweet and an awesome Christian woman, a good wife and Mother. She lives holiness standards gladly, dressing modesty, ect. Her loser OP husband was fired from his job for looking at porn at work.

I can't imagine how she must have felt, knowing that she is living a standard, and that is not enough for him, he has to look at porn on the internet. If she wasn't such an awesome Christian woman, she could say the heck with the standards, how about if I go out and buy something sexy to wear and lets go out to eat and let you feel the pay backs while other men look at me.

But of course she is a sweet Christian woman and those thoughts would never cross her mind.

Hoovie 11-13-2011 05:16 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113336)
What about engaging in sexual acts with another person via the Internet? Cyber sex, the exchange of illicit photos and so forth?
Those are all gross sin - as is lying, deception, pride, hatred and malice.

CC1 11-13-2011 05:18 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Keith (Post 1113328)
The reason they don't confess is they will lose everything. Because there is not restoration, you won't come clean.
Now you know good and well that in the UPC there has been "restoration" for several decades. You just have had to have the right last name and the right father!:happydance (without even trying hard 3 names come to my mind right off the bat of top Pentecostal ministers of the 20th century who I admired greatly but had sons so fell into sexual sin and were "restored")

I would argue there is restoration but these guys don't confess because they don't want to lose stature in their religious culture nor their income.

Timmy 11-13-2011 06:14 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie (Post 1113334)
Timmy, Jesus was making the point that God sees and knows all things.

For example we would judge all porn viewing as "sinful" but God actually knows not only if someone views porn but also whether they committed adultery in their heart. We don't have that ability.
OK, so we won't know if we're guilty of that sin or not. Interesting.

RandyWayne 11-13-2011 06:58 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113337)
Ftr viewing pornagraphy can be just as destructive as the act of adultery.
Destructive, yes. "Just as", not even close (in MOST cases).

RandyWayne 11-13-2011 07:03 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1113340)
I would find it much easier to forgive my spouse for viewing porn, than for an act of adultery.
I agree that it can be just as destructive.
In my extended family of laws, inlaws, outlaws, and family friends there have been several cases over the past decades where the wife discovers the husbands "stash" or him viewing it. In almost all cases they laugh when they talk about it (I am sure it wasn't funny at the time). I cannot think of one instance where someone laughed about catching their spouse in an affair. In fact I can only think of one distant family friend who's marriage actually survived it.

answers 11-13-2011 07:10 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113336)
What about engaging in sexual acts with another person via the Internet? Cyber sex, the exchange of illicit photos and so forth?
Does this count as adultery? Your spouse having an online relationship? Do they have to have sex for it to be adultery?

Holding hands is ok?

Kissing is more forgivable?

When is it adultery?

Amanah 11-14-2011 04:22 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by answers (Post 1113375)
Does this count as adultery? Your spouse having an online relationship? Do they have to have sex for it to be adultery?

Holding hands is ok?

Kissing is more forgivable?

When is it adultery?
Good question, I think an online sexual relationship would be adultery.

And, If i saw pics of my husband holding hands with someone in Rome, while on a "business" trip, I wouldn't assume he was innocent.

Timmy 11-14-2011 08:51 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1113402)
Good question, I think an online sexual relationship would be adultery.

And, If i saw pics of my husband holding hands with someone in Rome, while on a "business" trip, I wouldn't assume he was innocent.
Atlanta Bishop would. ;)

Amanah 11-14-2011 08:52 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1113444)
Atlanta Bishop would. ;)
AB is a better, more trusting person then me, that's why I love him!

Timmy 11-14-2011 08:58 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1113445)
AB is a better, more trusting person then me, that's why I love him!
You could put it that way, I suppose. :toofunny

AreYouReady? 11-14-2011 10:30 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Maybe we should address the question as to "why?" a spouse would commit adultery?

What is it in the couple's life that is lacking? Somewhere the word "commitment" has gone by the wayside. Perhaps communication has eroded? Why can't a husband and wife intelligently discuss what/and/or why each other's needs are not being met?

Cindy 11-14-2011 10:31 AM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Viewing porn is a violation of the marriage, IMO. It is telling your spouse you aren't enough. It is degrading to women and men, and in some ways it is adultery. Adultery isn't always physical.

Dante 11-14-2011 12:50 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
In situations like these...Jesus is the God of the second chance, and the third chance, and the fourth chance, and the fifth....tenth....eighteenth....fifty-seventh....ninety-sixth....etc.

Jack Shephard 11-14-2011 01:00 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante (Post 1113519)
In situations like these...Jesus is the God of the second chance, and the third chance, and the fourth chance, and the fifth....tenth....eighteenth....fifty-seventh....ninety-sixth....etc.
I agree with you! One thing I can say I don't think anyone would want to confess to an affair whether it is a minister or not. I don't even think that most people would be fine confessing any sin. There isn't a true "rehab" stage to go through other than falling in the altar and crying for an hour and speaking in tongues. But because there is so much judgment and so little grace that why would anyone feel comfortable confessing anything?

Amanah 11-14-2011 01:06 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante (Post 1113519)
In situations like these...Jesus is the God of the second chance, and the third chance, and the fourth chance, and the fifth....tenth....eighteenth....fifty-seventh....ninety-sixth....etc.
true there are that many chances with God, but depending on what happened, there could also be a divorce.

answers 11-14-2011 01:10 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 1113474)
Viewing porn is a violation of the marriage, IMO. It is telling your spouse you aren't enough. It is degrading to women and men, and in some ways it is adultery. Adultery isn't always physical.
Thank you! Now should a pastor or minister caught in a compromising situation get a break with the church and his family since it wasn't "sex"?

Timmy 11-14-2011 01:27 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTULLOCK (Post 1113522)
I agree with you! One thing I can say I don't think anyone would want to confess to an affair whether it is a minister or not. I don't even think that most people would be fine confessing any sin. There isn't a true "rehab" stage to go through other than falling in the altar and crying for an hour and speaking in tongues. But because there is so much judgment and so little grace that why would anyone feel comfortable confessing anything?
Would an hour at the altar be enough rehab for a child-molesting Sunday School teacher, then back on the job next week? A second time, third time, fourth time, etc.?

RandyWayne 11-14-2011 01:40 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1113530)
Would an hour at the altar be enough rehab for a child-molesting Sunday School teacher, then back on the job next week? A second time, third time, fourth time, etc.?
That reminds me of the question of how many "wins" does a quarterback need to be forgiven of a specific crime. How many for running a dog fighting ring? How many for rape? I suppose for "Big Ben" a Superbowl appearance was enough.

But back to your specific example, it probably depends on what the child-molesting Sunday school teachers last name is when it comes to how many alter appearances he needs.

riverslivnwtr 11-14-2011 01:41 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Jesus says as a man thinketh in hs heart so is he... I think. :heeheehee

and I wouLd have to agree about the mean spiritedness since as i see the great whore in Revelation 17&18 was really really mean..with the use of her power..and her daughters is getting really mean in the United States having been tricked into fornication with the gubment. Even Pentecostals now! :foottap

ucan tell I'm getting really really mad now :foottap

:heeheehee:happydance

Jack Shephard 11-14-2011 03:11 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1113530)
Would an hour at the altar be enough rehab for a child-molesting Sunday School teacher, then back on the job next week? A second time, third time, fourth time, etc.?
I wouldn't begin to guess what would be enough time to deal with that. The difference in that is if someone confesses that then they go to jail and there isn't any chance of them holding their position in the church because of the legal reasons.

Jack Shephard 11-14-2011 03:13 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 1113537)
That reminds me of the question of how many "wins" does a quarterback need to be forgiven of a specific crime. How many for running a dog fighting ring? How many for rape? I suppose for "Big Ben" a Superbowl appearance was enough.

But back to your specific example, it probably depends on what the child-molesting Sunday school teachers last name is when it comes to how many alter appearances he needs.

I think that the court of public opinion for atheltes and actors is different than the one in the church. I think there is more grace given in Hollywood and in the music scene than the church...makes me scratch my head and wonder why...

Jack Shephard 11-14-2011 03:14 PM
Re: Ministers in Adultery
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverslivnwtr (Post 1113538)
Jesus says as a man thinketh in hs heart so is he... I think. :heeheehee

and I wouLd have to agree about the mean spiritedness since as i see the great whore in Revelation 17&18 was really really mean..with the use of her power..and her daughters is getting really mean in the United States having been tricked into fornication with the gubment. Even Pentecostals now! :foottap

ucan tell I'm getting really really mad now :foottap

:heeheehee:happydance
Have you been watching Dexter? .

:thumbsup


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