How involved is God?
 

There are two views that are prominent among people regarding God's involvement in humanity as a whole. If there are more than these two then I beg of you to post them, but essentially the ones I want to bring to your attention are:

1. God is actively involved in every aspect of His creation - He built it and is in control of moving all the mechanics of it to make sure it moves smoothly. Also, He is personally involved in every single person's life who is alive today.

2. God created the universe but has taken a "hands off" approach to it. In other words, He set it up so that it runs on its own, and has now stepped back away from it for things to operate how ever things turn out. He has tuned the universe to operate according to certain laws so that certain actions trigger a reaction, and He has no need to be personally involved in people's lives because He has set up the rules of the universe to take care of themselves.

Which view do you take, and why?

Re: How involved is God?
 

Since the Bible says those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God, I'm thinking he's got to be pretty involved.

And since the Church is the body of Christ, and Jesus is the head of the Church, he's got to be pretty involved.

Re: How involved is God?
 

How involved is God in the case of a young slave girl who has been sold in to prostitution?

Re: How involved is God?
 

I don't have the answers. But I do know that Jesus put man in the garden to tend it and keep it. And He did give men freedom of choice to sin or live for him. So, why are we (mankind) allowing young slave girls to be sold into prostitution? because we are rejecting God.

Re: How involved is God?
 

But if you argue that God is involved in the life of the Church, since He is the head of it, why is He not as involved in the lives of unbelievers?

That makes your argument to say that God is only active in a select few, which albeit He is still active, but that limits God in the grand scheme of being involved in all of His creation.

Re: How involved is God?
 

i agree with amanah that god is involved in the destiny of the church and the destiny of individuals that can bring about god's prophetic plan. cyrus, jeremiah, moses, esther are ot examples. i don't think that every experience is predestined. god can make evil work for our good. so i'm in the middle. god is not involved in every detail, but is involved in bringing about a masterplan that is prophesied.

Re: How involved is God?
 

there is freewill. god is not involved in allowing child abuse in order to form character. that is an example where god is not involved. moses being raised and educated in the house of pharoah, he is involved. there must be a balance between sovereignty and free will.

Re: How involved is God?
 

I'll have to think on this one.

Re: How involved is God?
 

“There is no maverick molecule if God is sovereign.” - R.C. Sproul

Check out this short devotional. You may not agree, but it makes you think:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devoti...s-sovereignty/

Re: How involved is God?
 

My view changes depending on the position the sun appears to be in the sky... (On a side note I about worded that "the position of the sun is in the sky"... While not technically true it is an often used way of saying what I wanted to say. I think a persons reading of the bible often suffers from a similar phenomenon... As such we should be careful about drawing conclusions and inferences from passages in the bible when those conclusions and inferences have nothing to do with the actual topic the bible is addressing in a particular passage.)

Re: How involved is God?
 

God doesnt force people to live for him. Since you are so worried about the slave girl, what are you doing to help? It's just convenient rhetoric to fuel a futile debate, not actual compassion for the girl.

Re: How involved is God?
 

You've lashed out twice in the same day... take a chill pill.

Re: How involved is God?
 

hush or I'll serve you up as frog legs with a nice butter garlic sauce

Re: How involved is God?
 

:thumbsup lol

Re: How involved is God?
 

I really wanted to say fuel to a futile fire, but it seemed silly, it would have been satifying though

Re: How involved is God?
 

:kittyhug

Re: How involved is God?
 

Maybe but sometimes things need rehashed. Such discussions are generally profitable to everyone involved... usually the effects come about at such a later time that we doubt the usefullness of discussion... but its useful nonetheless.

Re: How involved is God?
 

Jesus did what?

Re: How involved is God?
 

I believe that God has within His eternal character, the distinct and apparently contradictory qualities of Transcendence and Immanence. (I linked to Wiki articles which discuss these qualities to spare you from having to listen to me explain them here- though the articles themselves don't exactly jibe with my own views in all matters of theology).

Transcendence: Job 22:2; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 1:25, 1 Corinthians 2:16; Romans 11:33-36.

Immanence: Jeremiah 23:23-24; Acts 14:17, Acts 17:27-30.

... notice also Isaiah 55:8-11. Here God is described as being unreachable and incomprehensible to human beings. However, God sends His "Word" (in Greek= "Logos") so that we might learn of Him. The Hebrews called this "Memra" (or "Dibbur" as it is in the original in Isaiah 55:11). This "sending of His Word" is generally equated with the incarnation (John 1:1-14; Philippians 2:6–8) though He obviously had been "sending His Word" for a considerable period of time before that (1 Samuel 15:10; Isaiah 38:4; Jeremiah 1:4; and so many other verses).

In the process of time, God also took on the quality of "Dwelling," "Tabernacling" or "In Dwelling." This seems to be reserved for a description of God temporarily "inhabiting" a particular place in a particular way. This is not an "eternal" quality of God (IMHO) since it requires a creation with which He interacts. Thus, Genesis 1:2 (ESV), may be the first reference to God assuming this quality.

Thus, in the words of Paul, "One God and Father of all, who is above all (transcendent), and through all (immanent), and in you all (tabernacling). Ephesians 4:6.

Re: How involved is God?
 

... and so, in answer to your question: Yes.

God is remote and apparently "uninvolved" in our petty lives; yet, simultaneously, He is also very much involved, even when we may not be concerned about His involvement (Acts 14:17 and Acts 17:27-29).

It's paradoxical, so a lot of folks reject the idea. Others, will assert that this God must exist as multiple "Persons" in order to achieve this complexity within His nature. For my part, I can live with a God Who is difficult to understand - One whose nature I may never fully understand, at least in this life.

Re: How involved is God?
 

I disagree with Sproul's outlook on this one. Did God really involve Himself and His holiness in determining the outcome of the roll of dice in my grand-niece's game of "Chutes-And-Ladders?"

Was it the will of God that I had two eggs at breakfast, or did I choose that? Did God guide my hand so that I chose just the "right" eggs from the carton in the fridge, or did it really matter? Those eggs that remain, were they spared by God? Why were these eggs unfertilized while other eggs are fertilized and produce chicks?

For that matter... apply these questions to human fertilization. That month before we became pregnant with my first born son, did God choose that ova to die unfertilized despite all of my best efforts?

Are the molecules which constitute the good Rev. Sproul's keyboard with which he typed out this article ordained of God to be there and NOT, say, in the Vibram soles of his footwear?

Re: How involved is God?
 

I think God is a lot more involved than we think he is.

I also think a lot of what God does looks very natural.

Re: How involved is God?
 

you sound a lot smarter when you say it than I do.

Re: How involved is God?
 

I am an Open Theist for the most part, my good friend continually leans more towards Calvinistic Predestination. We argue about this issue quite often. I think God is sovereign and could control every aspect of our life, but that such would render "free will" a fairy tale. He thinks God absolutely writes our every path and decision, yet we are allowed "free will" to operate within what God has already predestined for us.

In the end, I think God has a plan for us, and that if we will surrender to His will He will lead us in it. If we refuse to follow His will, we have the freedom to do so. Our lives IMO are not some script where no matter what we do, we have to arrive at some predestined outcome. We choose what we will do and where we will end up. God knows everything we oculd do, and every possible outcome of every possibel choice we could make, and I believe He nudges us in the right direction. I don't believe He controls our actions or "knows" exactly what choices we will make however.

Since God is already at the end of all things, and knws how it will turn out, if He "knows' our every decision...then there is no way to change them. That means that from the very beginning we have in actuality had no real choice but to dfo what we have already done. It was already "written". If this is true, then we have not had freedom, "free will", to do anything. It was already determined what we would do before we were even a thought in our parents heads.

I prefer the Open Theist view. I could be dead wrong in the end thogh and I admit that. It isn't salvific in nature.

Re: How involved is God?
 

It is a lot like the rabbit with the poison in the closed box. Is the rabbit alive or is it dead? In fact, the case can be made that it is both.

"As for the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door."

Re: How involved is God?
 

It's raining. Very welcome rain, in this TX drought. Did God do it?

Re: How involved is God?
 

Yeah. Sound smarter. :heeheehee

I found this Bible verse using 'Identity in Christ' for Android phones, and thought you might like it:

"You knew and loved me before I was even born!":

16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. (Psalm 139 : 16 - ESV)

Find out more:
http://www.roboticode.co.uk

Re: How involved is God?
 

Of course I would argue that the verse mentioned Aquila is in Psalms. The intention of the Psalms was to be poetic praise, not necessarily doctrinal teaching. Did David intend to literally express doctrine regarding God and man's predestination? Or was this simply poetic language used to encourage that God indeed has our lives in HIs hands and we can find comfort in trusting Him?

Further, these are the assertions of the writer. He isn't saying that God told him He had written all his days. Rather the writer is saying he believes God had written all his days. It is man's assertion here, not God's statement.

Re: How involved is God?
 

How much of the Bible is direct quotations of God? Acts 2:38 is Peter's opinion, too, isn't it? :heeheehee

This is pretty much where I stand. To the original question, I believe it's more like #2, but with heavy doses of direct involvement.

Re: How involved is God?
 

I believe that God placed the cycles of the climate in order from the beginning. I see nothing about the current state of things that are outside of the bounds God set from the beginning.

Re: How involved is God?
 

Human nature is a funny thing. alot of times people throw out 'What if" scenarios in an apparent effort to stimulate thought...but in truth it is nothing more then self justification.

God is as involved in our lives as we let him. He will not override your free will, your right to choose. Relationship is a choice not a mandate. We choose to love, we choose our spouse - for many reasons, but the bottom line..we love them and choose them.

God created us for relationship, he communed with Adam in the cool of the day...it has ALWAYS been about a relationship, and that involves a choice, not only on Gods part, but on ours as well. In the case of sinners who are self willed and entrenched in all manner of evil, it is a choice...now they may never have heard the Gospel...I understand that argument...having said that, there are laws of the land...people who claim total ignorance of right and wrong are obsurd.

Now, what about the person hurt or wronged by the actions of another...that is an even deeper question, one worth answering...but I'm at work!

I think that it all depends on one's view of God's intensions. I believe God is in full control and His will is always done. God sets boundaries for sin, evil, and Satan (Job). I believe that God permits and even uses the intensions of the wicked to serve His ultimate purpose - to fashion a people in the image and likeness of Christ.

Re: How involved is God?
 

I believe pretty much the exact opposite. :lol

Re: How involved is God?
 

Pel, I can see what you are saying. The whole concept of trying to reconcile divine sovereignty and human free will is confusing. Nobody has all the answers this side of heaven.

I grew up believing that human free will meant that God was not in control of everything. Still, there are a lot of Scriptures that seem to point to God's sovereignty over every detail. For example:

Re: How involved is God?
 

Then you have to believe in UR.

Re: How involved is God?
 

The best answers can come from Elihu the Buzite and from God in their answer to Job , in the book of Job.. There they explain in detail the actions of God .....

God has given the Church the responsibility to evangelize the world, He is saving some...but not all...Jesus said when he comes will he find faith in the earth? God made all things by faith..hence by speaking and calling those things into existence and I feel that he desires for us to use our faith to call into existence souls ; or to bring them in through faith....by calling on his name...and bringing him into action moving him to save; by our expectation of him.. he called us to be gods..rulers of the spiritual realm...not allowing Satan to rule over us nor our possessions or territory..to take kingdoms and regions in the earth through the authority we have by Jesus Christ....

I believe this is the avenue He wishes us to take....
We cannot change people or make them believe but we can through faith in God's Word take dominion in the world..and change everything. but not with hands..:happydance

Re: How involved is God?
 

Answered Perry's prayers he did. :heeheehee

Not necessarily. Even the idea of eternal punishment serves to glorify God's righteousness and as an eternal example of judgement against evil. God is eternally righteous and holy...a crime against Him and His nature requires eternal consequence. For example, an assault against me is a misdemeanor, an assault against the President is a felony. An assault against God is a crime of an eternal nature.