Is Welfare a Right?
 

What say you? Do we have a right and expectation to receive a government check for food and housing?

After all this IS America.:icecream

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Under the law, yes

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

No, we do not have that right, nor should we have that privilege. We should not be dependent on the government to supply our every need. All the nations that have done this see declining productivity and contentment, and a sharp rise in sloth, rebellion, strife, discontent, and many other sinful attitudes and behaviors.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

How do you figure Prax? Do you consider the "comon welfare" in the Constitution to refer to some Government obligation to put food on the individual's table? Otherwise, how do you consider their to be some "right" to a handout from the Gov?

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

We have a right to "pursue" happiness. It doesn't say a right to a chicken in every pot.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

:thumbsup

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

No, but it's nice to know help may be available if we need it. But it shouldn't be a career.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

It's not a right by any means... but in a civil Christian society that can provide welfare, it is a blessing for many.

Or one could see it as a right. Even the Law gave the poor the right to glean.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

It's not a right nor should it be an expectation. And... if a civil christian society wants to provide assistance for people then let it provide it as they are able and desire to do so. But leave the government out of it.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I believe that "welfare" is NOT a federal responsibility nor a "right". Such powers should reside within the individual states. And I believe that cooperation with private agencies should be sought over before massive government programs implimented.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Gleaning is work.
Too much like picking up aluminum cans.

We are not in a Christian civil society. OWS reports support my observation.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

It's good government to make sure that the citizens are taken care of.

We don't have to enable life-long welfare recipients, but a country as wealthy as America should not leave any of her citizens hungry or without adequate health care.

The government is there for the people, not the people for the government.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

There's no reason in even dealing with the rest of the post as I see a fundamental difference in our thinking which forms the basis for the way we would feel about the rest.

Greatly in debt does not equal rich. We are a country in phenomenal debt that is at a level sufficient to sink our economy and the dollar completely. We are tinkering on the edge of complete financial failure.

That is not rich in my books. That is living above ones mean and appearing rich.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Machiavelli stated that it was not at all feasible or desirable for a government to provide for its citizens. A government that does so must eventually raise taxes, cut services, or both which leads to the inevitable down fall of said government. We can see that this has happened so often within the last 40 years that it is nearly impossible to keep track of.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Ever wonder if people asked the same question about Education? Ever wonder if people asked the same question about freedom of speech? Ever wonder if people asked the same question about countless other rights that we deem as apparent and undeniable?

My question is: what morally depraved people would rather see people starve and freeze to death than to see the abuse of a welfare system? It's one thing if such a system cannot be financed It's another if it can be financed and we as a nation choose not to. I think the question shouldn't be whether it's their right to have a welfare system.. Instead I think the question should be whether its our moral duty to provide such a system... and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes!

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

You are making a fallacious argument. Nobody has made an argument for allowing people to die in the streets from lack of food, shelter, or warmth. The basic argument is that at the very least it is not a problem for the United States government to handle. We have seen what it has brought us since its inception. We now have higher poverty rates, more single parent families, more irresponsible parents, more drugs, more depressed, suicidal, and murderous children larger slums, deeper debt.

And what did we get in for the other side of the bargain?

Affordable healthcare, not on this planet. Better jobs, in our dreams. Better education, not here. Greater compassion for the truly poor, not really. More generosity, you must be joking.

The advent of our welfare state has destroyed everything that we had worked so hard to build. In fact, we keep adding to the welfare roles. Tarp was welfare for failing businesses. The 'bailout' was welfare for failing banks. That 'loan' to the care manufacturers was a giant welfare check. It is time to end the welfare state, pluck it up by its greedy, sinful, wicked, and immoral roots and cast in the pig sty of historically failed ideas.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

We have people dying on the streets with welfare... how many more would there be without it?

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Ah! What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Nearly 50 % of the population pay no taxes. So isn't it only fair that the rest of us, (those who pay) should have the same privilege of not paying. Let's all get off taxes and eventually on welfare and then let's see who pays the bill!

BT

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I love that tic bit. I have to agree that it does not make any sense at all the way things are currently set up. However, I lose nearly 1/5 or so of what I make through the year, and I am supposed to be happy when I only get about 1/4 of that back. State income taxes, federal income taxes, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are keeping me from getting ahead. If I was taxed at a flat five percent of my income by both the federal and state levels, with nothing extra, I would come out ahead in the short and long run.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

And that's the problem with those screaming no welfare. It all comes back to this comment right here and this comment is about greed pure and simple. I can understand there's problems with the system. I can understand it might cause some bad things like laziness for some. But when the argument shifts from that to I want more money I just can't see the moral compass being in favor of your arguments anymore.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

jfrog, why don't you go in tomorrow and tell your boss to cut your pay so he can give it to someone else. It's got to be greed for you to accept that much money! There are others who don't have anything. Why should you?

BT

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

The problem with your post is that you are ignorant of my situation. I make less than 25K per year and with the various levels of government taking 1/5 of my total income, I have to afford food, gas, insurance, car payment, healthcare, rent, trying to reduce my debt, and other expenses of living. In addition, I also am required by Scripture to be generous support the work of the gospel, and give aid to the churches that need it.

You take a look at my budget and tell me what I should be doing with my money. I am not greedy, but struggling to survive. I do not have internet nor a landline in my apartment, I go without a lot of amenities and frills, and I am told how selfish I am, and how I have to pull my weight to pay for people who will not work, on welfare with kids by different men, drinking, gambling, carousing, etc. I know that not all are like that, but I live around enough Bums to be sick and tire of being taken advantage of. If they want to pull their weight, let them get a job and support the tiny minority of people who are actually incapable of doing anything. But in the mean time, do not call those like me who work more than 40+ to make our lives work, that we are selfish, greedy, and heartless because we do not want to hand out our money for stupidity.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

nah. da boss can't know i don't want that much... he might decide to put more in his pocket instead of giving it to the poor ;)

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Why not end your self tax (of helping churches, probably by tithing + offerings... around 10-15% or more of your income) before you complain about the governments tax to help the poor?

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I hope the reason the frog hasn't responded is that he is praying through and asking God to forgive him for calling you greedy, Jay. Don't quite understand his harsh response. In my opinion he was not very Christian. But, maybe I'm being too judgmental, too. Think I just go to bed!

Good night!

BT

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I call it as I see it BT. The whole lot of yall screamin no wellfare because your life could be a little better without it are lousy. I can get that the system is broke and that there are far to many abusers of it. I get that. I hate it as much as you do. It tees me off that the abusers are takin both what is mine and what is bein given to the poor. But the solution is not to say SCREW ALL YALL... none of yall are goina get assistance now cause some decided to abuse it. The fact is there are poor who would die without assistance. I want yall to think a little more about them and what will happen to them when you take that assistance away... I want you to think about them more than you do the abusers...or even yourselves... I know its hard but try ;)

So yea the systems broke... but talk about that instead of how much better off you could be if there wasn't welfare to pay for. Talk about how much better off both you, the system and the country would be if the abusers would stop abusing. Helping the poor is a good thing and I'm betting that none of yall would have a problem with welfare systems if there weren't soo many dagon abusers. :thumbsup But please stop talking about how much better your life would be if wellfare were just cut out... because with comments like that its implied that ya care more about having more money for yourself than about what happens to the people who really need the assistance. And I get you really want it cut out because of the abusers... but like I said in the last paragraph, don't forget about those it really does help. So please complain about welfare for the right reasons... and stop with this "my life would be better without having to pay for it"... cause we both know that's not really the truth for why you dislike our current welfare system so much. You hate it because of all the dagon abusers! At least I hope thats why ;)

So I stand by it: yall are lousy... lousy at explaining yourselves and lousy at picking out the good points of your side and leaving the stupid dumb points alone ;)

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

no welfare, zero, zilch, nada

If you care about the poor and the needy that much then you give them your money, not my money.

I am taxed to support some people who will not work, the freeloaders.

Before there was welfare there was poverty just like now, but no one in America was startving. so all those doom an gloom scenarious are only lies.

I am a strong believer of no welfare whatsover. if a man will not work then neither should he eat.

in the bible, Ruth was a poor woman, yet you did not see her begging, she went out gleaning and earning what she got, she got nothing free.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

The problem is that we decided to engage in social expiramentaion, and it has gotten us nothing but additional problems. We had economic reversals and recoveries, and it was treated as a part of life, yes people lost everything, but others made it big, anything was possible if one were willing to work hard. The fact is that now failure is rewarded and success is punished in the form of ever higher taxes.

The solution is cut taxes, cut the regulations that kill start-up businesses, and you will start to solve many of the problems in our country.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I think no one reads anything anymore :/ And yes alot more people starved in America back before Welfare... I would consider gleaning from the fields a welfare system not a work for your food system.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

If you could work hard and anything be possible before a welfare tax then you can still work hard and anything be possible. When people start all this crazy rhetoric that really has nothing to do with the situation then I stop listening. Republican talk points really get old :(

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Gleaning was not hard work. A widow or an orphan could do it.

But let's not forget the truth of the matter. Though the Law entitled the Levites, widows, poor, orphans, and strangers to the tithe and gleanings.... Israel often denied this right to them, especially the poor, widows, and orphans. Amos is a prophet who strongly rebukes their officials in the gates of the city for allowing land owners to deny the poor their "right" to glean, turning them away to starve as these greedy land owners wallowed in profit.

Amos 5:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them.
12For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.
13Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

The "gate" was where civil disputes where heard. The poor were not being allowed to gather in their wheat from gleaning. The land owners were driving them away from the crops to increase harvest and profits. The poor and the widows would in turn go to the gates of the city and appeal to the officials for "justice". The officials would turn the poor away in the gates, not even hearing their case. Amos promises that judgment will follow for this and other grave sins.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Interesting article from the Holman Bible Dictionary:

JUSTICE
Holman Bible Dictionary

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat, particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17, REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19. Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and… loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18, NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12; Isaiah 30:18).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17; Psalms 146:7-9; Malachi 3:5). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2; Ecclesiastes 4:1). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28; Job 29:12-17). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9; compare Micah 2:2; Micah 4:4) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Deuteronomy 24:6). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18; Psalms 146:7), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13), and shelter (Psalms 68:6; Job 8:6). Job 22:5-9,Job 22:23; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process (Deuteronomy 16:18-20). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts (Leviticus 25:28). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalms 76:9; Isaiah 45:8; Isaiah 58:11; Isaiah 62:1-2). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalms 68:5-10; Psalms 10:15-16; compare 107; Psalms 113:7-9). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10; compare Luke 1:51-53; Luke 6:20-26).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalms 99:1-4; Genesis 18:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Jeremiah 9:24), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalms 76:9; Psalms 103:6; Jeremiah 49:11). Justice thus is universal (Psalms 9:7-9) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26; 2 Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8; Isaiah 1:11-17; Matthew 5:23-24), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10), tithing (Matthew 23:23), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13). See Law; Government; Poverty; Righteousness; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

Justice... hmmm....

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

We have a right until something takes away that right, such as crimes.

So its more of a conditional right.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

That's the problem. You don't appear to understand that welfare creates dependence and makes a place for further poverty and helps the local community forget that taking care of one another is our responsibility. Not only by the stifling of good productive business that excessive taxation taxes on small businesses but also by the inevitable human reaction of lessening of the desire to fight for ones survival and that of their families.

Welfare should not come from government. "Welfare" should come from individuals and the community because welfare that comes through those sources recognizes the actual level of need & worthiness of any help.

After decades of welfare we have become a society who doesn't think about doing much more than surface help for one in need because "the government will take care of it.".

But... the line the government feeds us causes society to weaken and government to strengthen until government can no longer carried weakened society and both collapse.

Even then those who drank the "government welfare" Kool Aid will still see it as the fault of those who were against welfare. This issue isn't one about how much we should do on a governmental basis. It's about whether we should or not. And, especially on a federal level, we should not.

It harms society... it doesn't help society.

It isn't with antiquated thinking that the Bible states that a man who doesn't work shouldn't eat. It is with the wisdom of our God and creator that these words are uttered.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

You share a very popular opinion. And I tend to agree. However, what are your thoughts of this portion of the article I posted above?

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

A few random thoughts...

If biblically the ruler is responsible for social justice with regards to the widows, poor, orphans, needy, and strangers... does this not mean that "God" feels that the government is responsible for the social stability of these social classes? Also, we are a government of the people. We elect private individuals who run for office, representing the people who elect them. Therefore, is not our government an extention of our private society? For social welfare, "justice" as it's biblically defined, is an issue that requires the protection of entitlements by the ruler... how can government not be an agent of said justice?

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Same ole same ole. Nothing new, nothing thought through. Just a bunch of half true one sided propoganda.

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

Governments should not be in the "welfare business".
People should help people. Not steal my tax money to give away to who ever!

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

And what should happen when people don't help people?

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

I said people should help people.
I don't want government to tell me where my money should go.

When people don't help people, that's wrong.
But even if that happens, it's still wrong for the government to steal my money.

Just because people don't help means go ahead and steal it!!

Re: Is Welfare a Right?
 

What is the purpose of government?

Isn't it in part to protect the welfare of its people, both from foreign and domestic?