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-   -   I'm having story issues this morning (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=37517)

Amanah 11-19-2011 04:02 AM
I'm having story issues this morning
 
I know that God is the only game in town, he created us for relationship with him and that relationship gives incredible meaning to our lives.

But sometimes when I review the Story of it all, I have issues with some things.

So, Ill retell the Story, and some of you can come along and correct my issues; it will be good.

The Story

God, the self existant one, who has always existed, was alone

So He created a heavenly entourage to worship Him, sing and praise Him.

One of His entourage was such a beautifull, exceptional musician, that he rebelled and convinced a third of the others to follow him, damning himself and his followers to hell.

God still didn't have the fellowship He desired, so He decided to create a beautifull world, which included a man and woman. They were as innocent as children, they had no knowledge or wisdom or understanding.

God gave these innocents a garden with two trees and a crafty snake and tells them, don't eat of the tree. He knows perfectly well that the snake is in the garden with his children and the children are going to fall. The snake is crafty and wily and His children are no match for him.

He knows perfectly well that the fall is going to result in unbelievable pain, suffering and death, agony, and damnation for many of His children.

He gives them a promise, a flood to wipe most of them off the face of the earth, A rainbow, and more promises

He gives them laws he knows they can't possibly keep to prove to them how messed up they really are.

They can't see Him, they can't follow Him, they cry for human government, their leaders lead them astray, Kings have harems with hundreds of wives, Sons sleep with their father wives. Kings lead God's people to worship idols, they offer their children as sacrifices unto idols. They are led away to destruction, having their eyes poked out after seeing their children slain.

Then He comes himself, lives among them, makes the ultimate sacrifice and sheds his blood for them. He is the Savior of all mankind.

He gives them a plan for salvation and His disciples write the plan down so all humanity can now escape the pain, torment, suffering, and hell that has been the path of mankind since the fall.

But something is still not right, people read the documents of Jesus' followers and can't agree on what the words mean, the "church" falls into apostasy, 20,000 religions form over time from the writings of the disciples, forming human organizations, telling each other that they are going to hell, building human empires, and political power structures using the teachings of the disciples to opress and control the people.

The people know they have to get it right, getting it right is the difference between glorification and damnation. But most of the people can't figure it out.

Many spend years trying to figure it out
Many spend years walking in the wrong direction
Many are so broken from trying to find their way that they become bitter, cynical, distrustfull, not knowing which way to turn
All they know is that they answers are in the book, and everything depends on them getting the answers right
Some give up
Some proclaim that they have the answers and everyone else is on their way to hell
Other are disgusted with the ones who are traveling and trying to find their way
They hurl insults and abuse
They call each other heretic
They ........ each other to hell

Others are so precious and beautifull that you are certain that they must know the way, but even the precious and beautifull ones don't agree.

You can spend your whole life on this path and not find the way,
isn't it sad?

Angel48 11-19-2011 04:23 AM
And yet- forgive me, I don't know the bible well, I haven't even read it all yet. But I know it says to have faith. Faith & works.. So keep the faith, work to learn more, work to stay in the will of God and it should be okay. Maybe that's too simple an answer for the people on here. But isn't it really a simple thing?

Amanah 11-19-2011 04:30 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel48 (Post 1114936)
And yet- forgive me, I don't know the bible well, I haven't even read it all yet. But I know it says to have faith. Faith & works.. So keep the faith, work to learn more, work to stay in the will of God and it should be okay. Maybe that's too simple an answer for the people on here. But isn't it really a simple thing?
of course you are right
thank you Angel

Timmy 11-19-2011 08:23 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1114933)
I know that God is the only game in town, he created us for relationship with him and that relationship gives incredible meaning to our lives.

But sometimes when I review the Story of it all, I have issues with some things.

So, Ill retell the Story, and some of you can come along and correct my issues; it will be good.

The Story

God, the self existant one, who has always existed, was alone

So He created a heavenly entourage to worship Him, sing and praise Him.

One of His entourage was such a beautifull, exceptional musician, that he rebelled and convinced a third of the others to follow him, damning himself and his followers to hell.

God still didn't have the fellowship He desired, so He decided to create a beautifull world, which included a man and woman. They were as innocent as children, they had no knowledge or wisdom or understanding.

God gave these innocents a garden with two trees and a crafty snake and tells them, don't eat of the tree. He knows perfectly well that the snake is in the garden with his children and the children are going to fall. The snake is crafty and wily and His children are no match for him.

He knows perfectly well that the fall is going to result in unbelievable pain, suffering and death, agony, and damnation for many of His children.

He gives them a promise, a flood to wipe most of them off the face of the earth, A rainbow, and more promises

He gives them laws he knows they can't possibly keep to prove to them how messed up they really are.

They can't see Him, they can't follow Him, they cry for human government, their leaders lead them astray, Kings have harems with hundreds of wives, Sons sleep with their father wives. Kings lead God's people to worship idols, they offer their children as sacrifices unto idols. They are led away to destruction, having their eyes poked out after seeing their children slain.

Then He comes himself, lives among them, makes the ultimate sacrifice and sheds his blood for them. He is the Savior of all mankind.

He gives them a plan for salvation and His disciples write the plan down so all humanity can now escape the pain, torment, suffering, and hell that has been the path of mankind since the fall.

But something is still not right, people read the documents of Jesus' followers and can't agree on what the words mean, the "church" falls into apostasy, 20,000 religions form over time from the writings of the disciples, forming human organizations, telling each other that they are going to hell, building human empires, and political power structures using the teachings of the disciples to opress and control the people.

The people know they have to get it right, getting it right is the difference between glorification and damnation. But most of the people can't figure it out.

Many spend years trying to figure it out
Many spend years walking in the wrong direction
Many are so broken from trying to find their way that they become bitter, cynical, distrustfull, not knowing which way to turn
All they know is that they answers are in the book, and everything depends on them getting the answers right
Some give up
Some proclaim that they have the answers and everyone else is on their way to hell
Other are disgusted with the ones who are traveling and trying to find their way
They hurl insults and abuse
They call each other heretic
They ........ each other to hell

Others are so precious and beautifull that you are certain that they must know the way, but even the precious and beautifull ones don't agree.

You can spend your whole life on this path and not find the way,
isn't it sad?

Yeah, so what's the problem?

:heeheehee

Amanah 11-19-2011 08:26 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1114945)
Yeah, so what's the problem?

:heeheehee
thought someone might want to make editorial revisions and help me with rewrites, comic relief is welcome also though :highfive

Timmy 11-19-2011 08:30 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1114947)
thought someone might want to make editorial revisions and help me with rewrites, comic relief is welcome also though :highfive
No revisions needed. You got it exactly right! :D

Dedicated Mind 11-19-2011 11:46 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
I don't think God created humans because he needed worship. Maybe freewill worship or worship from a fallen state gives him more glory. I think God created humans as a way to judge Lucifer and to show his faithful angels what a freewill/fallen society looks like. When God created Lucifer, he didn't judge him to hell, only after lucifer causes man to fall and is the influencer of humans toward evil does God condemn him to lake of fire. why not judge satan before man's creation, if man has nothing to do with his judgement?

Falla39 11-19-2011 03:07 PM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel48 (Post 1114936)
And yet- forgive me, I don't know the bible well, I haven't even read it all yet. But I know it says to have faith. Faith & works.. So keep the faith, work to learn more, work to stay in the will of God and it should be okay. Maybe that's too simple an answer for the people on here. But isn't it really a simple thing?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word Of God! You may not like
spinach or broccoli, but eat it anyway, for it will do you good. There was a
time I did not enjoy or desire to read the Bible, because I didn't understand
it. I prayed and asked God to give me a desire for the Word. I kept reading
and came to the place where I could hardly put my Bible down, it was SO good!
Also without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please GOD. For he that cometh to
GOD MUST believe that HE IS, and that HE IS a REWARDER of them that
DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM! Not half-heartedly! But with all our heart!

Falla39

Raven 11-19-2011 05:32 PM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Amanah: Your brief summation is what 90% of Christianity believes to be true. It seems that God has "tried" many unsuccessful "experiments" and still hasn't come up with the perfect plan. Either God doesn't really know what He is doing ....... or ....... Christianity, as a whole, has it all wrong! Now, what do you suppose is actually the correct answer to that statement? [You have a 50/50 chance in getting the answer right.]

Amanah 11-19-2011 05:51 PM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
what do the other 10% believe?

I thought I was being very pessimistic this morning, if 90% of Christianity believes what I said in my first post, we are in trouble. I'm usually a little more upbeat to be honest.

Timmy 11-20-2011 09:11 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven (Post 1115023)
Amanah: Your brief summation is what 90% of Christianity believes to be true. It seems that God has "tried" many unsuccessful "experiments" and still hasn't come up with the perfect plan. Either God doesn't really know what He is doing ....... or ....... Christianity, as a whole, has it all wrong! Now, what do you suppose is actually the correct answer to that statement? [You have a 50/50 chance in getting the answer right.]
Can you find any errors in the opening post?

AncientPaths 11-20-2011 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah
I know that God is the only game in town, he created us for relationship with him and that relationship gives incredible meaning to our lives.

But sometimes when I review the Story of it all, I have issues with some things.

So, Ill retell the Story, and some of you can come along and correct my issues; it will be good.

The Story

God, the self existant one, who has always existed, was alone

So He created a heavenly entourage to worship Him, sing and praise Him.

One of His entourage was such a beautifull, exceptional musician, that he rebelled and convinced a third of the others to follow him, damning himself and his followers to hell.

God still didn't have the fellowship He desired, so He decided to create a beautifull world, which included a man and woman. They were as innocent as children, they had no knowledge or wisdom or understanding.

God gave these innocents a garden with two trees and a crafty snake and tells them, don't eat of the tree. He knows perfectly well that the snake is in the garden with his children and the children are going to fall. The snake is crafty and wily and His children are no match for him.

He knows perfectly well that the fall is going to result in unbelievable pain, suffering and death, agony, and damnation for many of His children.

He gives them a promise, a flood to wipe most of them off the face of the earth, A rainbow, and more promises

He gives them laws he knows they can't possibly keep to prove to them how messed up they really are.

They can't see Him, they can't follow Him, they cry for human government, their leaders lead them astray, Kings have harems with hundreds of wives, Sons sleep with their father wives. Kings lead God's people to worship idols, they offer their children as sacrifices unto idols. They are led away to destruction, having their eyes poked out after seeing their children slain.

Then He comes himself, lives among them, makes the ultimate sacrifice and sheds his blood for them. He is the Savior of all mankind.

He gives them a plan for salvation and His disciples write the plan down so all humanity can now escape the pain, torment, suffering, and hell that has been the path of mankind since the fall.

But something is still not right, people read the documents of Jesus' followers and can't agree on what the words mean, the "church" falls into apostasy, 20,000 religions form over time from the writings of the disciples, forming human organizations, telling each other that they are going to hell, building human empires, and political power structures using the teachings of the disciples to opress and control the people.

The people know they have to get it right, getting it right is the difference between glorification and damnation. But most of the people can't figure it out.

Many spend years trying to figure it out
Many spend years walking in the wrong direction
Many are so broken from trying to find their way that they become bitter, cynical, distrustfull, not knowing which way to turn
All they know is that they answers are in the book, and everything depends on them getting the answers right
Some give up
Some proclaim that they have the answers and everyone else is on their way to hell
Other are disgusted with the ones who are traveling and trying to find their way
They hurl insults and abuse
They call each other heretic
They ........ each other to hell

Others are so precious and beautifull that you are certain that they must know the way, but even the precious and beautifull ones don't agree.

You can spend your whole life on this path and not find the way,
isn't it sad?
This is why I'm not a Calvinist. Retell this story from an Open Theism perspective and it would be very different. I may attempt to at some point, but not from my phone ;)

Raven 11-20-2011 08:51 PM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1115104)
Can you find any errors in the opening post?
Why certainly, Timothy my friend. How about this statement that has been derived by supposition over the years: One of His entourage was such a beautifull, exceptional musician, that he rebelled and convinced a third of the others to follow him, damning himself and his followers to hell.

Timmy 11-21-2011 07:21 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven (Post 1115232)
Why certainly, Timothy my friend. How about this statement that has been derived by supposition over the years: One of His entourage was such a beautifull, exceptional musician, that he rebelled and convinced a third of the others to follow him, damning himself and his followers to hell.
Is that one of those Biblical legends? OK, scratch it off the list. It's not the most important one of the bunch, anyway! ;) How about this one?

He gives them laws he knows they can't possibly keep to prove to them how messed up they really are.

Nitehawk013 11-21-2011 07:33 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1115120)
This is why I'm not a Calvinist. Retell this story from an Open Theism perspective and it would be very different. I may attempt to at some point, but not from my phone ;)
Yep. Open Theists UNITE!

IMO Calvinism makes God out to be a heartless vile creator who, despite KNOWING man will sin and be damned, does nothing to prevent it...rather pushes the whoel ordeal along to get to His designated and known outcome despite the BILLIONS of souls He "loves" who will be destroyed along the way (unless you believe UR).

Open Theism puts it back into the context of God creatign a perfect creation and giving man free will and choice, and man messing up the whole ordeal. God plays the part of longsuffering hero by ever reaching to man who chooses to run and disobey. Unil the end when God finally executes justice and judgment, only after giving more grace and opportunity for salvation than any other judge ever would.

Thats of course just my opinion though. You also have Arminians who are somewhere in the middle.

Timmy 11-21-2011 08:02 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitehawk013 (Post 1115329)
Yep. Open Theists UNITE!

IMO Calvinism makes God out to be a heartless vile creator who, despite KNOWING man will sin and be damned, does nothing to prevent it...rather pushes the whoel ordeal along to get to His designated and known outcome despite the BILLIONS of souls He "loves" who will be destroyed along the way (unless you believe UR).

Open Theism puts it back into the context of God creatign a perfect creation and giving man free will and choice, and man messing up the whole ordeal. . . .
Perfect creation except for man, you mean.

Nitehawk013 11-21-2011 08:22 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Man was perfect until he abused his free choice and disobeyed.

Timmy 11-21-2011 08:27 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitehawk013 (Post 1115346)
Man was perfect until he abused his free choice and disobeyed.
A perfect man would not have abused free choice or disobeyed.

Timmy 11-21-2011 08:28 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Oh yeah, and that serpent. Not perfect, either. ;)

AncientPaths 11-21-2011 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
Oh yeah, and that serpent. Not perfect, either. ;)
There is a lot longer conversation to be had on this topic, but yes, perfect isn't a good description of any freewill creation with a natural desire for imperfect things.

Timmy 11-21-2011 08:57 AM
Re: I'm having story issues this morning
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1115353)
There is a lot longer conversation to be had on this topic, but yes, perfect isn't a good description of any freewill creation with a natural desire for imperfect things.
:thumbsup


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