Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1118641)

America is so begging for judgment.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1118727)

The article said:

In a memorandum issued Tuesday, President Barack Obama directed U.S. agencies working abroad, including the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, to use foreign aid to assist gays and lesbians who are facing human rights violations. And he ordered U.S. agencies to protect vulnerable gay and lesbian refugees and asylum seekers.

We must further the cause of Liberty. Liberty is every man's God given right. Liberty is holy... even when men are unholy.

It sickens me that gays are abused, brutalized, and even executed in various countries. This is about human Liberty. Regardless of what one thinks about homosexuals, God intends them to be free persons. For only freedom allows the liberty to freely choose between good and evil.

I'm a divorcee. What if a country would have me be beaten, or perhaps even executed, for adultery if I remarried? Adultery or not... that's MY business. Sorry, I stand on the side of Liberty. Even if I disagree with those who use said Liberty to do what I'd never do. EVERY human being has a God given right to live according to his or her convictions regarding their life and happiness, answering only to God unless their choices have brought harm to another's life, liberty, or property.

I'd DIE to protect and PREACH Liberty... even for souls that don't deserve it. Because LIBERTY is Holy even when men are not. America will face the harshest Judgment should she abandon the cause of Liberty and Justice for All.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1118814)

Liberty is not holy. If you would die to protect the right to sin somethings wrong. God opposes sin and Americas judgment will not be because of the loss of liberty. It will be because of the loss of the fear and love of YHWH.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1119226)

I believe that the freedom of religion gives Satanists the right to worship Satan. But I don't personally support their faith. I believe that the freedom of speech allows men to blaspheme. But I do not advocate blasphemy.

I believe in liberty. If the government allows men to live free (only protecting life, liberty, and property) individuals become personally responsible before God. If the government begins to legislate righteousness, it must enforce the fulness of righteousness.

I'm for liberty. If gays can marry one day, so be it. But churches should have the right to decline to perform the weddings. I also think a business owner should have the right to hire whoever they choose.

Frankly, it might be wise to remove government from regulating marriage all together. It should be a private contract.

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1119258)

Aquila, you can take your head out of the sand, anytime. Our government is far from promoting liberty with this decision. This is not about liberty. This is about pandering to a political base in this country.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes, this does appeal to a liberal political base. However, there are homosexuals being stoned, hung, burned, rapped, and tortured in the Middle East and elsewhere. There are actually people seeking refuge in the United States and Europe simply because they are gay. While I do not embrace homosexuality as being God’s will for mankind, I do not under any circumstances advocate persecuting these people. You might want to turn a blind eye to it… but if the subject is on the table… I cannot. And if you CAN’T turn a blind eye to it… realize that this is part of a political solution rather it appeals to a liberal base or a libertarian base.

God gave us free will. You and I have a right to live the lives we desire. We can embrace the Gospel and live righteous lives… or we can choose to live a life of sin and reap the consequences. That is a liberty given to us by Almighty God that can be traced all the way back to the Garden of Eden when GOD HIMSELF placed the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil within Adam’s reach and gave Adam a choice not to touch it and live… or to touch it and die. So yes, the right for someone to choose to sin is given them by God. Why? Because it is only within the context of such liberty that a lost human soul can FREELY come to Him and be saved.

I don’t know, nor do I pretend to know. We’ll simply have to see.

So, if I (a supposedly free citizen) choose to marry another free citizen… do you believe that the police force of GOVERNMENT has the right to tell me who I can marry?

That is why I believe that we should stand for our liberties and not focus so much on standing against another’s.

But don’t you realize why that’s happening? Instead of standing up for our rights… all we do is stand against theirs. Let them have their rights… sink every once of our resources into protecting our rights specifically. You see… they have us on the defensive. They appear to be the victims. “The big bad Christians don’t want us to marry, they don’t want us to have freedom of expression…�, blah, blah, blah. What if we got off their porch and let them live their lives… and the moment a CHRISTIAN faced injustice we raised Hades like never before??? Then the focus would be on us and our plight.

I tolerate their right to live as they choose. I accept them as any sinner who needs salvation. But approval is a personal thing. I’ll never approve. And no government can make me. And as far as joining… you sound like that’s a fear of yours. Ummm… it’s definitely not one of mine. Lol

Liberty and justice for all. Even those I strongly disapprove of.

Riiiight. Lol

LOL

Are they fellow Americans entitled life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Yes, this administration turns a blind eye to persecuted Christians. That’s the fundamental problem. Given our political affiliation we turn a blind eye to hatred, prejudice, and persecution. Liberals turn a blind eye to Christians being persecuted. Conservatives turn a blind eye to gays being persecuted. Bro… I don’t approve of their lifestyle either. But one thing I know I can approve of is LIBERTY. I served 8 years in the United States military to defend our liberty. I was willing to fight and die for a Satanist’s right to start a Satanist coven (freedom of religion). Don’t you get it??? Liberty. I know folks that don’t approve of mixed marriages. And that’s their right to disapprove. BUT…mixed couples also have the right to freely marry.

As long as we spit, fuss, kick, scream, and try to hinder them from making private decisions for their own lives… we make them look like victims. I say… let them have their liberty. As assuredly as they fought for gay marriage… they will encounter the sting of “gay divorce� (which will be rampant). In ten years so many of those unions will fail the idea of gay marriage will be mockery. Stories of abuse and betrayal in gay marriages will become an issue. Every time a church is harassed for not solemnizing a gay union we scream and protest in support of our religious freedom to refuse to solemnize those marriages. Guess what… then the public will begin to see Christians as being victimized and given our day in court… we will be vindicated. C’mon. A church can refuse to marry any straight couple it chooses. Do you think harassment by a gay couple will stand in court? Get real. Synagogues, Mosques, Churches, Temples, etc. will all be standing united for religious freedom. It could bring a spiritual awakening.

We can think beyond the political fear mongering and stand for liberty... or we can continue down this road of opposing their every attempt to gain various rights. Again, this makes us look intolerant and them look like victims. And frankly, we're loosing.

Your strategy has failed, is failing, and will fail. Time to reassess and take a different approach that focuses on OUR liberty and the freedom to deny them union in our churches and advocate for OUR freedom of speech as we address this as sin.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1119280)

Yes, this does appeal to a liberal political base. However, there are homosexuals being stoned, hung, burned, rapped, and tortured in the Middle East and elsewhere. There are actually people seeking refuge in the United States and Europe simply because they are gay. While I do not embrace homosexuality as being God’s will for mankind, I do not under any circumstances advocate persecuting these people. You might want to turn a blind eye to it… but if the subject is on the table… I cannot. And if you CAN’T turn a blind eye to it… realize that this is part of a political solution rather it appeals to a liberal base or a libertarian base.



God gave us free will. You and I have a right to live the lives we desire. We can embrace the Gospel and live righteous lives… or we can choose to live a life of sin and reap the consequences. That is a liberty given to us by Almighty God that can be traced all the way back to the Garden of Eden when GOD HIMSELF placed the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil within Adam’s reach and gave Adam a choice not to touch it and live… or to touch it and die. So yes, the right for someone to choose to sin is given them by God. Why? Because it is only within the context of such liberty that a lost human soul can FREELY come to Him and be saved.



I don’t know, nor do I pretend to know. We’ll simply have to see.



So, if I (a supposedly free citizen) choose to marry another free citizen… do you believe that the police force of GOVERNMENT has the right to tell me who I can marry?



That is why I believe that we should stand for our liberties and not focus so much on standing against another’s.



But don’t you realize why that’s happening? Instead of standing up for our rights… all we do is stand against theirs. Let them have their rights… sink every once of our resources into protecting our rights specifically. You see… they have us on the defensive. They appear to be the victims. “The big bad Christians don’t want us to marry, they don’t want us to have freedom of expression…”, blah, blah, blah. What if we got off their porch and let them live their lives… and the moment a CHRISTIAN faced injustice we raised Hades like never before??? Then the focus would be on us and our plight.



I tolerate their right to live as they choose. I accept them as any sinner who needs salvation. But approval is a personal thing. I’ll never approve. And no government can make me. And as far as joining… you sound like that’s a fear of yours. Ummm… it’s definitely not one of mine. Lol



Liberty and justice for all. Even those I strongly disapprove of.



Riiiight. Lol



LOL



Are they fellow Americans entitled life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?



Yes, this administration turns a blind eye to persecuted Christians. That’s the fundamental problem. Given our political affiliation we turn a blind eye to hatred, prejudice, and persecution. Liberals turn a blind eye to Christians being persecuted. Conservatives turn a blind eye to gays being persecuted. Bro… I don’t approve of their lifestyle either. But one thing I know I can approve of is LIBERTY. I served 8 years in the United States military to defend our liberty. I was willing to fight and die for a Satanist’s right to start a Satanist coven (freedom of religion). Don’t you get it??? Liberty. I know folks that don’t approve of mixed marriages. And that’s their right to disapprove. BUT…mixed couples also have the right to freely marry.

As long as we spit, fuss, kick, scream, and try to hinder them from making private decisions for their own lives… we make them look like victims. I say… let them have their liberty. As assuredly as they fought for gay marriage… they will encounter the sting of “gay divorce” (which will be rampant). In ten years so many of those unions will fail the idea of gay marriage will be mockery. Stories of abuse and betrayal in gay marriages will become an issue. Every time a church is harassed for not solemnizing a gay union we scream and protest in support of our religious freedom to refuse to solemnize those marriages. Guess what… then the public will begin to see Christians as being victimized and given our day in court… we will be vindicated. C’mon. A church can refuse to marry any straight couple it chooses. Do you think harassment by a gay couple will stand in court? Get real. Synagogues, Mosques, Churches, Temples, etc. will all be standing united for religious freedom. It could bring a spiritual awakening.

We can think beyond the political fear mongering and stand for liberty... or we can continue down this road of opposing their every attempt to gain various rights. Again, this makes us look intolerant and them look like victims. And frankly, we're loosing.

Your strategy has failed, is failing, and will fail. Time to reassess and take a different approach that focuses on OUR liberty and the freedom to deny them union in our churches and advocate for OUR freedom of speech as we address this as sin.

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1120016)

Sorry for the late response, I have been traveling with a lot to do!
Aquila - do you believe that "marriage" should be limited to two people or should it be open to multiple spouse marriages?
Do you believe that government should have the right to prosecute a murder, if the "victim" was willing to be murdered?

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1118727)

The article said:

In a memorandum issued Tuesday, President Barack Obama directed U.S. agencies working abroad, including the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, to use foreign aid to assist gays and lesbians who are facing human rights violations. And he ordered U.S. agencies to protect vulnerable gay and lesbian refugees and asylum seekers.

We must further the cause of Liberty. Liberty is every man's God given right. Liberty is holy... even when men are unholy.

It sickens me that gays are abused, brutalized, and even executed in various countries. This is about human Liberty. Regardless of what one thinks about homosexuals, God intends them to be free persons. For only freedom allows the liberty to freely choose between good and evil.

I'm a divorcee. What if a country would have me be beaten, or perhaps even executed, for adultery if I remarried? Adultery or not... that's MY business. Sorry, I stand on the side of Liberty. Even if I disagree with those who use said Liberty to do what I'd never do. EVERY human being has a God given right to live according to his or her convictions regarding their life and happiness, answering only to God unless their choices have brought harm to another's life, liberty, or property.

I'd DIE to protect and PREACH Liberty... even for souls that don't deserve it. Because LIBERTY is Holy even when men are not. America will face the harshest Judgment should she abandon the cause of Liberty and Justice for All.

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1120089)

I think government can define legal marriage however it desires. However, if government is really for the people then it would seem that same sex couples would need a way of obtaining extra protections and privleges under law... protections and privleges similar to those afforded to a husband and wife.

I am oppossed to not legally allowing same sex marriage on the basis of religious belief. However, I can see many compelling reasons to not define same sex marriage as classical marriage. Primarily because the laws dealing with classical marriage were set up under the assumption that marriage was a man and a wife. There could be many unforeseen issues with now making that assumption be false. Therefore I would not be oppossed to legal action that gives same sex couples something similiar to marriage but I would be wary of legally defining what they are given as marriage.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1120125)

According to the gay people I know, they do not want a domestic partnership, or a legal contract with power of attorney, or property rights. They want to get married. To publicly acknowledge their love for one another as well as their legal commitment and to have others acknowledge it as well. Some want a ceremony with all the bells and whistles and some a trip to the JP but they all want the right to do what a marriage is to them.

I saw a National Geographic special the other day. Some lost tribe of the Amazon... the narrator calmly stated '... he has two wives, they have had 12 children but only 3 are alive today'... the point was that there is a very high child mortality rate. No judgement was passed on the 'two wives' issue, whether or not they got married in a church or had a license issued by the state. These were simply his wives because by their own customs they met that criteria.

I think we can look at gay marriage the same way. While it does not meet the criteria of 'marriage' by our Christian standards it meets the standards of the people it involves and that really is not for us to question.

Our mission is to reach the lost with the Good News of Jesus Christ... and to trust that He'll fix the rest just as He did for us. I find no commandment to 'Go ye forth to all the Nations and legislate by what moral code they will live.'

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1120125)

According to the gay people I know, they do not want a domestic partnership, or a legal contract with power of attorney, or property rights. They want to get married. To publicly acknowledge their love for one another as well as their legal commitment and to have others acknowledge it as well. Some want a ceremony with all the bells and whistles and some a trip to the JP but they all want the right to do what a marriage is to them.

I saw a National Geographic special the other day. Some lost tribe of the Amazon... the narrator calmly stated '... he has two wives, they have had 12 children but only 3 are alive today'... the point was that there is a very high child mortality rate. No judgement was passed on the 'two wives' issue, whether or not they got married in a church or had a license issued by the state. These were simply his wives because by their own customs they met that criteria.

I think we can look at gay marriage the same way. While it does not meet the criteria of 'marriage' by our Christian standards it meets the standards of the people it involves and that really is not for us to question.

Our mission is to reach the lost with the Good News of Jesus Christ... and to trust that He'll fix the rest just as He did for us. I find no commandment to 'Go ye forth to all the Nations and legislate by what moral code they will live.'

Originally Posted by jfrog

If that's all they want then let them throw the biggest I love you ceremony in the world... Just at the end of the day it won't be legally called marriage. Here's the hangup for me, their want of having it legally called marriage is irrational. They can have marriage ceremonies. I'll even throw in a civil union type thing to protect them but why do they care if we legally call those unions marriage or not?

Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1120139)

The term marriage should not be in our laws to begin with. That's what happens when you mix church and state and then get mad about the ramifications. Marriage as we see it is a Holy union. So why is it a legal contract? All government recognized unions should simply be civil unions. The marriage part happens at church.

Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1120139)

The term marriage should not be in our laws to begin with. That's what happens when you mix church and state and then get mad about the ramifications. Marriage as we see it is a Holy union. So why is it a legal contract? All government recognized unions should simply be civil unions. The marriage part happens at church.

Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1120139)

The term marriage should not be in our laws to begin with. That's what happens when you mix church and state and then get mad about the ramifications. Marriage as we see it is a Holy union. So why is it a legal contract? All government recognized unions should simply be civil unions. The marriage part happens at church.

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1120272)

Mix church and state?
What on earth are you talking about.
Every culture on this earth has some sort of "marriage" ceremony.
Our culture has defined it as "one man and one woman".
Now various agendas want to change the definition.
Let me ask this again, since no one has answered it.

For those of you who support changing it to include same-sex unions,
where do you stand on multiple partner "marriages"?

Originally Posted by Twisp (Post 1120280)

I think polygamy and polyandry should be allowed between consenting adults, same as opposite sex marriages and same sex marriages.

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1120292)

That is precisely where we are headed.
And that way lies madness.
You cannot, logically, support gay "marriage" without supporting this.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Mix church and state?
What on earth are you talking about.
Every culture on this earth has some sort of "marriage" ceremony.
Our culture has defined it as "one man and one woman".
Now various agendas want to change the definition.
Let me ask this again, since no one has answered it.

For those of you who support changing it to include same-sex unions,
where do you stand on multiple partner "marriages"?

Originally Posted by Twisp

If people want to head down that path, let them. Let the government use the same designation for all civil unions/marriages. The government has no place telling consenting adults who they can and cannot marry.

Originally Posted by Hoovie

The government cannot and should not be held to the same standards as the church. That being said, I think the further the government strays From basic scriptual principles, the more trouble it brings to the whole of society. Whether it's celebrating homosexuality, "consenting" pedophilia, rewarding those who will not work, or forced redistribution of wealth - these are the signs of the times we live in.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

The age of consent in England is 16. You see a lot of 40 year old men with 16 year old girls.
That, to me, would qualify as pedophilia.

Originally Posted by Twisp (Post 1120294)

If people want to head down that path, let them. Let the government use the same designation for all civil unions/marriages. The government has no place telling consenting adults who they can and cannot marry.

Originally Posted by AncientPaths (Post 1120347)

I can agree with this. Though to say that allowing someone a set of rights is necessarily "celebrating" is a bit of a stretch. Though I'm sure some will be celebrating. And then, to have the pedophila thing lumped in with that is a horrendous leap. That is not a "next step" along the so-called slippery slope. That will never, ever happen without an all out war - at which I would be on the front lines. And then you started veering into an anti-socialism argument - which I agree with, but I wouldn't necessarily cause redistribution of wealth to be anti-Biblical. ;)