Pentagon Report:War With China
 

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showt...-United-States.

How much does China want Tiawan?

Part 1

http://patdollard.com/2011/12/pentag...r-over-taiwan/

One of the saddest things that I’ve had to report on my web site is China’s rush towards total war with the United States.I've been describing this for years, but it was always in the distance. A new report by the Pentagon makes it clear that this war is no longer distant, and an attack within the next 12-18 months is a reasonable expectation.

On Wednesday, the Pentagon issued its annual report on China’s military, Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2011 (PDF).

This report was supposed to be issued five months ago, but it was apparently delayed until mid-August, with Congress out of town, at a time when it was less likely to alarm people. The report contains euphemistic phrases like, “China’s military is modernizing, but the Chinese government needs to be more forthcoming on why it needs these new capabilities.” But if you actually read the details of China’s preparations for war, you get a very stark reality.

The Taiwan Scenario

The report details China’s border disputes in central Asia, especially with India, as well as China’s aggressive claims to practically everything in the South China Sea and East China Sea, including many islands that are considered sovereign territory of other countries.

But the really big focus is Taiwan. There’s never been any doubt that China has been focused for years on invading and taking control of Taiwan. They said that themselves many times, as I’ve reported in dozens of reports on this web site. Furthermore, the Chinese consider a preemptive invasion of Taiwan to be a “defensive” military action.

But the difference is that China now has the military capacity to do that, despite defense by the U.S., according to the report:

“Although the PLA [People's Liberation Army] is contending with a growing array of missions, Taiwan remains its main strategic direction. China continued modernizing its military in 2010, with a focus on Taiwan contingencies, even as cross-Strait relations improved. The PLA seeks the capability to deter Taiwan independence and influence Taiwan to settle the dispute on Beijing’s terms. In pursuit of this objective, Beijing is developing capabilities intended to deter, delay, or deny possible U.S. support for the island in the event of conflict. The balance of cross-Strait military forces and capabilities continues to shift in the mainland’s favor.”

The reports describes deployment of thousands of missiles specifically directed as U.S. naval capabilities in defending Taiwan, including numerous ballistic and cruise missile programs that can attack Taiwan and attack and disable any aircraft carriers or other U.S. naval vessels in the region.

China has deployed dozens of surface and submarine naval attack vessels, supported early-warning aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and other surveillance and reconnaissance equipment, capable of launching nuclear missiles from the sea.

China has also deployed space and cyber warfare capabilities. China has developed the capability to attack and kill America’s communication satellites. Each week there are news stories about Chinese “hackers” stealing enormous amounts of military technology and defense-related secret information.

(There have been recent news stories that General Electric Corp. is planning to partner with Chinese firms and provide them with a great deal of American aerospace technology that will also have military use. This deal by GE is going to be a disaster.)

In addition, China is developing a number of capabilities that can directly attack the U.S.:

“China is modernizing its nuclear forces by adding more survivable delivery systems. In recent years, the road mobile, solid propellant CSS-10 Mod 1 and CSS-10 Mod 2 (DF-31 and DF-31A) intercontinental-range ballistic missiles (ICBMs) have entered service. The CSS- 10 Mod 2, with a range in excess of 11,200 km, can reach most locations within the continental United States.”

This is the fulfillment of several threats made by China in years past. In 2005, top-level Chinese army officer General Zhu Chenghu threatened America with nuclear war if America interfered with Taiwan:

“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond. We … will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian [a city in central China]. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds … of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

In 2005, Zhu’s remarks were an empty threat. Today, they’re a real threat.

And, as I reported in 2006, Sha Zukang, the Chinese ambassador to the U.N., furiously and harshly threatened the U.S. over Taiwan. I transcribed the words that he literally screamed in an interview with a BBC reporter:

“The moment that Taiwan declares independence, supported by whomever, China will have no choice but to [use] whatever means available to my government. Nobody should have any illusions on that. …

It’s not a matter of how big Taiwan is, but for China, one INCH of the territory is more valuable than the LIVES of our people.”

[With regard to the U.S.'s constant criticism of China's rapid militarization:] It’s better for the U.S. to shut up, keep quiet. That’s much, much better. China’s population is 6 times or 5 times the United States. Why blame China? No. forget it. It’s high time to shut up. It’s a nation’s sovereign right to do what is good for them. But don’t tell us what’s good for China. Thank you very much.”

Secrecy and deception

China’s military culture is completely opposite to America’s in the sense that America tries to be as open as possible, while China tries to be as secretive and deceptive as possible until it attacks. This is described in the report:

“PRC [People's Republic of China] military writings point to a working definition of strategic deception as “[luring] the other side into developing misperceptions, and [establishing for oneself] a strategically advantageous position by producing various kinds of false phenomena in an organized and planned manner with the smallest cost in manpower and materials.” In addition to information operations and conventional camouflage, concealment, and denial, the PLA draws from China’s historical experience and the traditional role that stratagem and deception have played in Chinese statecraft.

There is an inherent tension in Chinese strategic culture today, pitting a deep-seated tendency to conceal military capabilities and force development against a partial acceptance that excessive secrecy inflames regional and global anxiety about China’s rising power. For over a decade PRC leaders have identified the so called .China threat theory. as a serious hazard to the country’s international standing and reputation, threatening the development of a persistent alignment of regional and global powers in opposition to China. In addition, extreme secrecy is increasingly difficult to reconcile with China’s role in the integrated global economy, which depends upon transparency and the free flow of information for success.

There is perhaps another source of tension between the emerging reality of Chinese military power and China’s tradition of secrecy, and that is the fact that many of China’s new military capabilities are difficult or impossible to hide. Examples of such capabilities include advanced aircraft, long range missiles, and modern naval assets. Furthermore, missiles, space-based, and counterspace systems must be tested and exercised before being operationally deployed with confidence. The PLA’s growing inventory of these new assets and the ranges at which they operate effectively prevents their concealment.”

Will America abandon Taiwan?

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Part 2


I want to address this problem head on, because dozens of people have suggested this to me over the years — that America can simply abandon Taiwan, let the Chinese have it, rather than risk a major world war.

I want to make it as clear as I can that there is no possibility that America would abandon Taiwan, for several reasons:

Once China attacked, American response would be rapid and automatic, with no time for debate.

China would not target Taiwan alone. China would simultaneously attack America’s “weak points,” its communications satellites and its cyber capabilities, leaving no choice but to respond.

The U.S. has a defense treaties with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia and New Zealand (ANZUS treaty), Israel, Europe, Iceland, and others. All of these countries have cut back on their own military in the last 60 years because they’ve counted on U.S. protection. If the U.S. abandoned Taiwan, then every one of these countries would go into total panic, and war would result anyway.

This last point is one of the great ironies of a type that we often see in generational theory — something adopted early in a generational cycle in order to prevent war later becomes one of the causes of war decades later, during the generational Crisis era. In this case, when these treaties were signed after WW II, when America became policeman of the world, their purpose was to prevent another world war by making it too expensive for anyone to attack a country aligned with the United States. Now that America can no longer provide that level of defense, these treaties guarantee that a war cannot be prevented.

The way the world works

The Pentagon report was mostly ignored by the mainstream media this past week, but there was a little coverage, and one thing that I heard politicians say a couple of times was to the effect: “There’s no danger of war with China, because it will be decades before they have the capability to defeat the United States.” In fact, the Chinese themselves are saying the same thing (consistent, I would add, with their strategy of secrecy and deception).

The world doesn’t work that way. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor when anyone could have told them that they would lose the war. General Beauregard and the Confederates attacked Fort Sumter when anyone could have told them that the South would lose. Logic and rationality are for non-crisis wars. Generational crisis wars are launched on raw emotion, with little logic.

Here’s how historian Wolfgang Schivelbusch describes the beginning of war in his 2001 book, The Culture of Defeat: On National Trauma, Mourning, and Recovery:

“The passions excited in the national psyche by the onset of war show how deeply invested the masses now were in its potential outcome. Propaganda had reinforced their conviction that “everything was at stake,” and the threat of death and defeat functioned like a tightly coiled spring, further heightening the tension. The almost festive jubilation that accompanied the declarations of war in Charleston in 1861, Paris in 1870, and the capitals of the major European powers in 1914 were anticipatory celebrations of victory-since nations are as incapable of imagining their own defeat as individuals are of conceiving their own death. The new desire to humiliate the enemy, noted by Burckhardt, was merely a reaction to the unprecedented posturing in which nations now engaged when declaring war.

The deployment of armies on the battlefield is the classic manifestation of collective self-confidence. If both sides are not convinced of their military superiority, there will be no confrontation; rather, those who lack confidence will simply flee the field. Accordingly, the battle is decided the moment the confidence of one side fails. The will to fight (“morale”) evaporates, the military formation collapses, and the army seeks salvation in flight or, if it is lucky, in organized retreat. The Greek term for this point in space (on the battlefield) and time (the course of the battle) was trope. The victors demarcated the spot with the weapons of the vanquished and later with monuments, yielding the term tropaion, from which we get our word trophy.” (p. 6-7)

The euphoria lasts until something goes wrong. Panic occurs when a military disaster occurs. In his 1832 book, On War, General Carl von Clausewitz describes what happens:

“The effect of defeat outside the army — on the people and on the government — is a sudden collapse of the wildest expectations, and total destruction of self-confidence. The destruction of these feelings creates a vacuum, and that vacuum gets filled by a fear that grows corrosively, leading to total paralysis. It’s a blow to the whole nervous system of the losing side, as if caused by an electric charge. This effect may appear to a greater or lesser degree, but it’s never completely missing. Then, instead of rushing to repair the misfortune with a spirit of determination, everyone fears that his efforts will be futile; or he does nothing, leaving everything to Fate.”

This is what happens when reality sets in — whether by the Bataan Death March or the Battle of Bull Run.

Growing worldwide xenophobia and nationalism

As I’ve written many times, the world has seen a dramatic rise in xenophobia and nationalism in country after country, as the last generation of World War II survivors have been disappearing. In America, this xenophobia has been directed mostly at Muslims and Tea Partiers. But in China, this xenophobia has been directed at Americans.

I’ve been following this issue closely for years, and there is absolutely no question in my mind that the Chinese WILL launch a preemptive attack to acquire Taiwan at some point. This is a highly nationalistic issue for the Chinese, and they will not be deterred. It could happen at any time, but based on the Pentagon report, the next 12-18 months seems pretty likely.

Some people suggest that the Taiwanese people will eventually decide that they WANT to be part of China again. But once again, that ignores the strength of nationalism, this time on the Taiwanese side. Taiwan’s indigenous Hokkein people want no part of Beijing, and Han Chinese on Taiwan moved sharply towards separatism after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, and after the passing, in the 1990s, of the elderly leaders of the Kuomintang Party who were survivors of Mao’s Communist Revolution. See my 2004 article Taiwan’s Wild Election Battle)

The survivors of World War II understood how dangerous xenophobia and nationalism are, after they’d seen it in Germany’s Naziism, Italy’s Fascism, and elsewhere.

The Chinese learned the same lesson from their own civil war, and from Japanese nationalism and xenophobia. And Hu Jintao, China’s president, is a survivor of Mao’s Communist Revolution, and may well be only person left in China’s government desirous of peace, as I discussed in 2006 in “Eerie similarity: Chinese President Hu Jintao and Donald Rumsfeld.” In that article, I quoted the following analyst description of Hu:

“Yet in this sense, Hu reflects present-day China: As leader, he has not yet found a clear pathway, sources say. His country is at a major juncture of greater expectation, but with no clear direction or footing, socially or politically. Hu is not a zealous ideologue, a visionary economist, nor is he ready to force a war over Taiwan. He is cautious, lawyerly, a survivor, say numerous scholars, diplomats, and party sources. To the Chinese, he is as much a mystery as he is to the foreign community in Beijing. Whether he has yet consolidated power in China’s secretive leadership enclave is still speculated about.”

But Hu’s time is almost gone. In 2012 there will be a planned generational change in China’s leadership, and Hu will be replaced by younger people who ARE zealous ideologues and who ARE ready to force a war over Taiwan.

China’s war with America over Taiwan will not be a rational decision. It will be pursued by a nihilistic younger Chinese generation in the same way that America’s Generation-X pursued the destruction of the global financial system. It will be both immensely destructive and immensely self-destructive.

It’s worth repeating what General Zhu said:

If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond. We … will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian [a city in central China]. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds … of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

There’s nothing rational about this, but it’s the way the world is going.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Another piece of the picture.

By Newsroom America Staff at 6 Dec 2011

(Newsroom America) -- Chinese President Hu Jintao has urged the country's navy to prepare for combat amid rising tensions in the Asia-Pacific region over maritime disputes and a U.S. bid to reassert itself in the region.

The navy should "accelerate its transformation and modernisation in a sturdy way, and make extended preparations for military combat in order to make greater contributions to safeguard national security," Hu said in comments to the powerful Central Military Commission.

"Our work must closely encircle the main theme of national defence and military building," he said, in remarks that were posted to a government Web site.

The U.S. has been increasingly concerned about China's bid to grow its influence in the South China Sea in particular. China claims all of the maritime area, as does neighboring Taiwan, which China considers little more than a breakaway region.

Four other Asian nations claim parts of the same area, and U.S. intelligence and military officials have warned in the past the area is ripe for conflict over competition for some of the regions resources.

Pentagon officials downplayed Hu's comments, saying that China, like the U.S., had a right to develop its naval forces.

© 2011 Newsroom America.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

And yet another.



http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...st-from-north/

Reuters
.

China is circumventing international sanctions against Iran by enlisting North Korea’s help in providing the Islamic state with its most advanced intercontinental ballistic missiles and the technical expertise to make those nuclear warhead-capable missiles operational. And now the Communist giant is threatening to come to Iran’s defense should the missile or nuclear sites be attacked.

Referring this critical problem to the United Nations won’t work because China has veto power in the Security Council.

The United States and the West must therefore bring all the pressure to bear against China they can — and do it immediately.

The Revolutionary Guards, under orders from the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, have long been preparing for war, knowing that their nuclear bomb program could invite a preemptive strike by Israel or America.

Media outlets quote Chinese Maj. Gen. Zhang Zhaozhong as warning that in case of attack, China should not hesitate to protect Iran, even if it means launching World War III.

The Iranian-owned state media ran big headlines recently quoting Chinese President Hu Jintao as saying that he has ordered the Chinese Navy to prepare for war and that, in case of an attack on Iran, China will defend Iran.
When Mohammad Ali Jafari was appointed the chief commander of the Guards by Khamenei in September 2007, he formed 31 command-and-control centers in and around Iran that could operate independently in case of war. Each center is authorized to suppress any unrest and to confront any enemy.

Jafari also brought Iran’s Basij militia — a group of pro-government vigilantes — under Guard command to ensure greater coordination while at the same time forming thousands of Basij special units to suppress any uprisings that could arise after a possible attack.

Expecting war, Jafari weeks ago ordered the formation of the 32nd command-and-control center just for the security of Tehran, the capital of Iran. Now the Guards have assigned two divisions to protect Tehran.

The Guards at the same time have established hundreds of underground ballistic missile silos across Iran to achieve two goals:

First, these missiles, which have predetermined targets, could be fired from multiple sites toward an enemy.

Second, multiple hidden sites would make it difficult for satellites to pinpoint any launch and therefore lower the possibility of the missiles being taken out prior to launch.

The Guards have openly announced that American military bases will be targeted in retaliation for any attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Sources within Iran reveal that U.S. military bases in France, Hungary, Italy and Germany are among the targets.

As I revealed in May, the Guards possess ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads that have a range of over 2,000 miles, which could reach several capitals in Western Europe. The opposition group Green Experts of Iran now reports that the Guards have also obtained intercontinental ballistic missiles from China.

In recent years, the Revolutionary Guards put everything they had into boosting their military capabilities by developing long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

But they failed.

They then turned to China, which delivered to Iran 11 Dong Feng 3A missiles whose range exceeds 1,600 miles.

By 2009, concurrent with the increased in tensions between Iran and the international community, as well as the intensity of the unrest inside Iran, the Guards began talks with China and finalized an $11 billion deal in which China agreed to provide the Guards with advanced ICBMs, DF-31s, which have a minimum 4,300-mile range and can carry nuclear warheads.

China also agreed to help design several of Iran’s missile programs and provide expert training inside Iran. The contract called for delivery of six ICBMs, six mobile units for the missiles and 40 blast chambers to be assembled by the Revolutionary Guards inside a military complex.

Sources reveal that the missiles were delivered about a year ago, but the Guards failed in setting this missile project in motion.

Given the mounting international pressures against Iran’s nuclear program, even China announced it cannot further cooperate in Iran’s militaristic ambitions — unless sanctions can be circumvented.

According to the Green Experts, in order to resolve the basic problems of the missile project, a joint delegation of Chinese and North Korean experts traveled to Iran. Ultimately it was agreed that in exchange for $7 billion, hardware, installation and launch of the technology and the necessary training for the project would be handled by the North Koreans, since Pyongyang doesn’t recognize the U.N. sanctions.

North Korea, for its part, guaranteed that it would do its utmost in bolstering the Chinese-equipped missile project, and eventually situate its experts in Iran so that in critical conditions, the missiles will remain operational.

It is now logical to conclude that the explosions that occurred at the IRGC base 28 miles west of Tehran on Nov. 12 were due to Iranian missile experts working on the Chinese DF-31 missile.

Sources reveal that following the explosions at the Guards’ base and the loss of many key commanders running the missile program, a meeting was organized between the Revolutionary Guards and representatives of North Korea. It was agreed at that meeting that North Korea would expedite sending their missile experts to Iran — as of Dec. 10 — to get the missile system up and running.

With the Obama administration and European countries failing to implement crippling sanctions against Iran and openly stating that a military option could be devastating to the global economy, it seems that the radicals ruling Iran will soon not only have nuclear bombs but also the means to deliver them almost anywhere on the globe. There’s no time to waste.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...#ixzz1gtP66Ycw

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Mike the D,

While China is a long term danger it is not logical to think they seek war with the United States any time soon as we are the biggest export market for their economy.

I do think at some point they will make a move on Taiwan and perhaps soon. Despite our pledge to defend Taiwan I don't think the USA will actually do anything and China thinks the same thing. A war weary nation under great economic duress is not going to go to war over Taiwan. With the Cold War over Americans don't have the same intensity of thought about protecting a tiny Democracy with no strategic importance.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I thought we hasd already abandoned them.

My life is worth more than China's ego over Taiwan.

Let the Taiwanese fight their own battles.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I think Michael the Disciple is right on target.

Only from what I have researched through the years, war with China is only part of the script to bring in AntiChrist.

Milton William Cooper was in both the Air Force with secret(!) Security clearance and in the Navy.
William Cooper wrote in his book "Behold A Pale Horse" (published in 1990) that there is a planned Police State coming to America and that while the American people are apathetic and just living their lives not paying attention, Congress was passing all types of legislation aimed at the implementation of the "new government".

Considering his knowledge of worldly plans, he wrote on Page 177 of this book:

Can you imagine what will happen if Los Angeles is hit with a 9.0 quake, New York City is destroyed by a terrorist-planted atomic bomb, World War III breaks out in the Middle East, the banks and the stock market collapse, Extraterrestrials land on the White House lawn, food disappears from the markets, some people disappear the Messiah presents himself to the world, and all in a very short period of time? Can you imagine? The world power structure can, and will if necessary, make some or all of those things happen to bring about the New World Order. ibid p.177 Behold A Pale Horse

Mr. Cooper put portions of this document, http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/sw4qw/
in his book also.

Consider what The Cutting Edge Newsletter reported some years back in China's role in WWIII. http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1774.cfm

Perhaps we should take what Michael the Disciple is trying to say very seriously and really start doing some praying to God for protection from the world crisis soon to come? Or for the translation of His church to be caught up in the air. Perhaps we should not be so selfish in wanting our own hides to be "raptured", but we should remember that there are still many souls in the world who are not in the knowledge of Christ that will be left here.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I would like to point out, in your excellent thesis here, something that I think is being overlooked; but alluded to, in

“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond. We … will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian [a city in central China]. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds … of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”

and that is the distinct possibility that China feels threatened by U.S. I found your expo here insightful, for the most part, but suggest that China is much less inclined to attack anyone than you imagine, and I suggest that history bears this out--although there is always a first time? I'd say that it's much more likely that they are just becoming impervious to attack.

I wonder how we in the US would feel if, say China (no, not historically aggressive enough) Russia, maybe, early cold war Russia, were to set up shop at an island, 90 miles or so from the US...to put Taiwan in some perspective.

Awesome post, ty.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Ha; here is your Realm; God made it for you, and the Bible is clear (to me, at least) that "Heaven" ("where God is") is coming here. A proper reading of Ezekiel 13 will illuminate that (GOD speaking here; whose words have been mangled) "I am against those who teach men to fly to save their souls." ("birds," lol, please--"biblecc" has all you need to reveal the original manuscripts--lexicon, strong's, you name it, at the touch of a button).

But I really had no desire to pick that scab--I mostly agree with you, and that is where God is; in our agreement, so I re-post an affirmation of your post here, in

The Rise of the Fourth Reich, Jim Marrs

which you prolly don't need; they're prolly essentially the same book, and reflected in other works, as well, but the most lucid explanation I've found to date. I look forward to examining both of your ref's, ty.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I should note, however, reading a Bloomberg feed, that this book is why the Gubmint is offering 11 Swiss banks immunity...

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I believe that we will buckle to China because we are too weak to keep our umbrella of protection over the countries who relied on our protection. We have seen this with Russia and Georgia. Until we rededicate ourselves to honesty, honor, and integrity, we will continue to be discredited in the eyes of the world and our influence will be progressively diminished.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Ya, I have to agree with this; we already have buckled to China, IMO...and I always wondered why? I believe the motive was initially profit for your human masters...ha, I'm pretty certain. Of course, the picture is completely different now, but what did we need from them, even 10 years ago?
And why would China attack their golden goose?

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I dont know if we would buckle. It its over Taiwan I personally think we should. I hate to go back on a treaty but really its one we should not have made. I take them seriously they would annihilate HUNDREDS of our cities.

We even get our spare military parts from China. I have heard it said Obama is provoking Russia and China to war so that when we begin to lose we can make a new treaty with them uniting under world communism or a new world order.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

We will lose. China was given access to all our military secrets during the Clinton Administration.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Obama is promoting a war with China and Russia!?! I thought he had already surrendered! He is doing nothing of the sort, he has already let them know that we are a big fat kitten with no claws. They know full well that they have nothing to fear from us, just as Iran does. That is why they were nice and quiet with Bush. He refused to put up with their goofiness. But under Obama they have no fear and no respect.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Obama is promoting the idea of a missle base next door to Russia started by the Bush administration. We did not like it when Russia put missles in Cuba. Now they are angry with us over the same thing.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I wonder if any kind of war that would involve large swaths of the planet would be in the realm of possibility nowadays? Understanding that anything is possible; and calling a Taiwan showdown a police action...what would be the motive?

I'd def have to adjust my "globalist agenda" theory; a WWar is just too $$..?

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I think thats why the coming war will be so shocking. We are no longer use to full scale war. If whole cities are blown off the map it will be the most devestating thing most of us have see.

Those who lived in WW2 will remember millions of refugees on the move around the world trying to find food and shelter. It will be a time we will need Jesus like never before.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

The Taiwanese possess literally thousands of anti-ship missiles. A bellwether on any Chinese move would be to see how the Commies behave toward the outlying Taiwanese islands. At least two of which are almost literally a stone's throw off the coast of the mainland.

They used to trade artillery fire back in the 1950s and 1960s between these islands and Red China. Today, those islands are fairly well stocked and capable of repelling almost any invasion force - if their missile defenses are even close to what they've been touted as being.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Shouldn't let your "Post-Trib" desires color your analysis of the news. Premies and Posties are both wrong (IMHO).

Your reporting on China leaves out some very important points. And, I have family living in PRC currently - even the kids are aware of China's problems (and quite happy to be stateside for Xmas).

1) Any war on the scale you envision will require a massive shift of PRC troops from the western territories like Tibet and the Uyghur regions. The Uyghurs are currently in open revolt with several armed "liberation" armies just aching for a chance to not be out numbered.

2) Tibet has a sort of proxy army of liberation already formed in India. The Indian gov't has of course sought to limit their movements as China also has a couple of proxy "Maoist" armies operating in India - one in Assam and another in Orissa. Tibet will be free from China the first chance they get - and a war between Taiwan and the Mainland would be an excellent chance.

3) India. India lost Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh to China back in 1962. These areas leave India strategically weakened in the north and the Indians long to get at least Arunachal Pradesh back. Looking at the way China has moved against India, they clearly are seeking to cut off and/or overrun all of Assam to gain a coast on the Indian Ocean.

Any obvious distraction causing the Chinese to look eastward and India will have even more troops on that border. The current Indian gov't is a pretty hard line nationalist coalition. They are still China's enemy.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

...

3) The Wukan Uprising. The non-Han ethnic peoples of South China are also in revolt. There have been numerous and continuous riots and even armed revolts over the past few years. The city of Wukan is currently an armed bastion of rebels who have sealed themselves off from the Han controlled People's Liberation Army (PLA - Mao's old "Red Army") which surrounds the city.

Despite having (supposedly) superior military forces, the PLA hasn't even been able to effectively secure the perimeter of the city. Surrounding towns and villages have been reinforcing Wukan and building up a pretty hefty supply of food. The PLA's announced strategy was that they were going to "starve" Wukan into submission. How is Red China going to "take" Taiwan when they can't even settle accounts with this little band of rebels?

My 13 (14?) year old niece was just rock climbing about 500 miles to the west of Wukan - far enough away that the school trip wasn't canceled, yet in the same region. The whole region is in an uproar and the only thing holding the country together is the dominance of the PLA. Just let the PLA get busy trying to take Taiwan and we're back to the "Three Kingdoms" period - a period of time when Tibet was able to effectively invade and conquer much of what is now modern China.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

China is a basket case when it comes to the unity of its current empire. They have NO FRIENDS in the region. They are currently locked in a struggle over the Spratly Islands facing off against Taiwan, the Philippines, Indonesia and their old foe, Vietnam. A military move against Taiwan will bring the whole region down against them - including, ultimately, Japan and Russia.

Russia took what is generally considered the largest territorial acquisition in modern times away from China back in the 1850s. China tried, and failed to retake the Manchurian territories in a series of armed invasions of the U.S.S.R in 1969.

In 2008, Russia agreed to return the additional territory they had appropriated in the 1969 conflict. In the eyes of many Russian nationalists, current Russian claims extend, in fact, all the way through Manchuria to the port of Dalian (formerly Port Arthur) encompassing the old Czarist holdings lost to Japan in 1908 and then transferred from Japan to China in 1945.

Japan is currently funding the international Cambodian inquiry into the Khmer Rouge genocides of the 1970s. Of special interest is the Chinese airbase that was built with slave labor in Cambodia - slaves who were later executed (annihilated!) and buried in the grounds around the base. The judges are from several countries.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/asi...6/s3250973.htm

http://www.civicus-cam.org/programs/...-legacy/61/147

http://the-diplomat.com/2011/11/18/%...l-ready-to-go/

A German judge recently quit the panel when the current Cambodian gov't announced that they were not going to hand down any more indictments.

These events represent the united, though all too often understated, stance of the ENTIRE international community against the policies (past AND present) of the mainland Chinese gov't. Simply put, China is too weak to start any real wars. They know this and this is why they use "proxy armies" and seed "Maoist revolutions" around the globe hoping to undermine their rivals.

It was Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia that routed the Khmer Rouge. China responded by invading Vietnam (1979). There isn't a lot of love here and China's invasion was successfully repelled (though at a very high cost) by lowly Vietnam.

Consider also, the Chinese effectively have the largest economy on the planet right now (our GDP is greater, even in a recession) but they have literally $trillions in cash while we have $tillions in debt. Yet, they can't even build their own aircraft carrier. The only carrier they possess is one the Russians were going to scrap - and it's taken them a decade just to get the thing into sea trials.

Michael the D: just how do you think the PLA intends to cross the Straits of Taiwan?

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

With all of the other enemies that Communist China has managed to make - add BATMAN!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-activist.html

http://images.wikia.com/batman/image...istianBale.jpg

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Probably the same way the refugees fleeing Communism got there in the late 1940's. If they could do it THEN why cannot the MODERN CHINA do it now?

By the way have you ever heard of the KOREAN WAR? A war the United States Of America fought against the North Koreans and the Chinese?

Can you tell me who WON THAT WAR?

We could not defeat the Chinese army THEN. We settled for a truce.

Those Chinese now have thousands of missles that can easily destroy Taiwan if they chose. And guess what? If they chose to do so they can destroy the United States in one day. Before we can do anything they can send hundreds of nukes our way.

After that our retaliation will not matter to WE THE PEOPLE.

Consider this: I did not just sit here in my living room and make this up myself. Did you read the SOURCE of this report?

Here it is from the link.

On Wednesday, the Pentagon issued its annual report on China’s military, Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2011 (PDF).

The Pentagon.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Hmm...

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

We actually could have won both the Korean and Vietnam wars. Gen. MacArthur was already into mainland China when Eisenhower pulled him out and pulled back. The key there was that China had just gone through a revolution and was not in a position yet where they could effectively bring their military to bear. Korea was very winnable, but American leaders yielded to other voices instead of finishing the job.

We would have won also in Vietnam, but after the Tet Offensive (which actually destroyed the Viet Cong as an effective force in Southern Vietnam) leading men in the United States like Walter Cronkite told America that the war was lost. Between that and politicians forcing the military to retreat after securing an area caused the war to be lost at home before we ever actually were beaten on the field.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Hmm; quite similar to our victory/pullback @ Berlin, yes? Quite the (globalist agenda) pattern, IMO.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

We "could have" does not count. China had just went through the second world war also and had endured horrible things against the Japanese for 12 years. We had just lost hundreds of thousands of men also in the war.

Tho we had the much more modern army after 3 years we saw no way to win against China except to begin nuking them. Seeing what nukes did to Japan helped the Chinese come to the table. It would not work today because we know China has hundreds if not thousands of nukes themselves.

They dont need super spohisicated systems to deliver them. We did if with high flying airplanes. They have a large submarine fleet also that can come right to our coasts and deliver them quite easily if they decided to.

Our politicians today have far less will to fight a total war than in those days. The Korean War cost us many times the KIA from both of the wars we have fought in the past decade and neither have we prospered anything of value in them.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Ok, which begs motive, which you say is Taiwan; pretty buyable--but the US history of backing our satellites tells me that it's more likely that we would pimp Taiwan the minute it becomes politically expedient to do so, lol...dresssed up as...something marginally buyable, of course...

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

My father was a WWII and Korean Veteran. The only thing these wars gave to him was PTSD and an early death.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

For the same reason the Chinese invasion of Vietnam failed in 1979 and the Chinese invasion of Russian Manchuria failed in the 1960s. Do you really think the Taiwanese will sit there while an invasion fleet lands and deploys its troops and equipment? They have to capability of picking the invaders off like ducks in a pond before they ever land. PRC casualties would be massive - most likely, prohibitive.

The Nationalist "migration" to Taiwan was unopposed because the Nationalist gov't controlled Taiwan - so your comparison of the two isn't even close to being realistic. sorry.

The only realistic course for the PRC is to blockage the island - which they can't do completely - and then try and isolate the Nationalists internationally. Given the plain fact that the PRC is so effective at isolating itself - this isn't likely.

Sure, but first tell me why the U.S. and its allies were never able to take out the Russian and Chinese MIG bases NORTH of the Yalu River.

Then, tell me why a Chinese army of over 1 MILLION troops were unable to dislodge the mere 300,000 U.S. and "UN" troops? The famous Pusan Perimeter was held by a single regiment - facing a force of over a Half Million North Korean troops and Chinese "volunteers" who were supported by the Russian Air Force flying out of bases in the Soviet Union and in China that the U.S. commanders were forbidden to attack.

The Korean War ended in a stalemate largely because MacArthur was forbidden to pursue the Chinese and Russians north of the Yalu River. The enemy had a safe haven from which to regroup and resupply without even being bombed or shelled. This was a "policy defeat" and not a military one. In the end, the Chinese and NK lost because they started a war with an aim they were never able to accomplish.

No offense Bro, but you obviously have heard very little of the Korean War if you think the U.S. was there to defeat the Chinese.

Read up on the Pusan Perimeter and the landings at Inchon Harbor. Dig a bit into just why Truman fired MacArthur. Frankly, your taunts here reveal a great deal of ignorance on your part when it comes to U.S. history in the 20th century. Again, no offense, but you obviously haven't even done any casual reading of the events surrounding the Korean War.

Read the story of the "Frozen Chosin." Also, read the accounts of the U.S. troops who actually cleared almost all of North Korea of communist forces. The U.S. didn't "defeat the Chinese" in Korea because it was never our policy to do so. Even with that, MacArthur nearly pulled off the conquest of NK with the small forces that Truman had parceled out to him. U.S. troop strength didn't reach its max (300,000) until much later in the war - and long after MacArthur was fired.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

... and not done even any casual reading into the yield of the standard land-to-land and land-to-ship missiles currently deployed around the Straights of Taiwan.

Get a map, Bro. Find the Quemoy Archipelago. China tried AND FAILED to take these islands, not once, not twice, but three times. The Nationalists didn't even have any sort of missile defense at the time and were outnumbered (literally) Millions-to-One.

Battle of Guningtou (1949)
First Taiwan Strait Crisis (1954-1955)
Second Taiwan Strait Crisis (1958)

The only way the PRC would be able to "destroy Taiwan" would be with nukes. Nuking Taiwan sort of begs the question, "Why bother with an irradiated island whose primary resources (manufacturing) have been destroyed?" China's strategy is for the long haul. Persuade and buy off Taiwanese officials and create sympathy for peaceful unification.

The legendary corruption of the ruling Nationalist Party helps this cause immensely. The Taiwanese themselves may end up choosing unification along the lines of Hong Kong's rejoining the mainland - preserving most of their rights and liberties. The DPP (opposition party) has been making huge strides toward power. They officially proclaim continued independence as their policy, however, they have had to enter into coalitions with "Greens" and other Leftists.

China will most likely see unification with Taiwan after being approached by the Taiwanese themselves - if they play their cards right. The Taiwanese are ethnic Han people - just like the ruling establishment on the mainland.

Yes. You cut and pasted pretty much the whole thing. Consider this however, this report was produced by the same office that warned us of Saddam's nuclear and WMD program. It's just a report - one seeking additional funds for its tasks and interests.

Check out the many other reports that describe the PRC as an "ethnic basket case." Reread (or read for the first time) my earlier statements about the ongoing revolts in Uyghur areas and the current "Siege of Wukan" - a battle the PRC is loosing right now in large part because they haven't been able to effectively besiege a town of 20,000 people.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

... and then, if you have any time left, read up on Nuclear strategy. All of the nuclear states follow similar strategies in this regard.

".. before we can do anything..."

The flash of any ICBM missile launch is immediately detected by a rather large number of nations with the capacity to do so. Space, sea and ground based radars and other sensors. We even have listening posts located in China itself ostensibly monitoring the former USSR. This is part of the famous "Deep Black" and Keyhole projects. The sensor data is uploaded right from China itself and downloaded by those "giant golf balls" on the east side of the city where I live. This is why missile tests are announced days or weeks in advance. You don't want the others to get jumpy.

Moreover, most of the Chinese nukes require lengthy fueling which is also detectable from space. It has been reported that the PRC has about 20 ICBMs currently targeted at the U.S. Don't forget, China has fought actual military battles with both Russia and India recently - and they pretty much surround China and have nukes themselves; so it's a good bet that the Chinese have some sort of deterrent devoted to those old foes as well. To understand the Chinese gov't and military you have to understand that they often have some pretty good reasons for being so paranoid.

It would take about 30 minutes to an hour for the hypothetical Chinese missiles to reach the U.S. (depending upon launch site and the type of missile). Meanwhile, they will have over flown an entire fleet of Trident submarines whose retaliatory missiles would strike China before most of the Chinese ICBMs even reach Washington or their other targets. At times, we probably have more nukes in Asia than China itself has.

Then, the Minute Man missiles would launch and China would cease to be. We would have literally hundreds (if not thousands) of missiles in the air and on their way before China's 20 or so missiles hit us. Believe me, China is well aware of this.

The Chinese nukes are a deterrent. They will only fly if China's very existence is threatened - unless if, during the coming and inevitable fragmentation of the Chinese Empire, some of them fall into the hands of some lone nut case - then all bets are off.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

ah! An actual historian of the 20th Century.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

The Soviets had Berlin surrounded before U.S. forces had even reached the Elbe River.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...hais/fb062.jpg

The U.S. "pull back" was a big piece of real estate - but we weren't really close to Berlin until after the war when the joint occupation of the German capital was set up.

The purple area on this map shows the territory U.S. and British forces had conquered from the Nazis and then turned over to the Soviets (the DDR actually, but they were pawns of the Soviets of course).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_G...border#Origins

With the exception of the post-war "trip to Berlin" U.S. troops never crossed the Elbe River.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

20. They have 20 ICBMs targeting the U.S. In addition, they have another few dozen which are no doubt dedicated to other deterrent purposes. Most of their nukes are only capable of hitting targets in Asia.

http://www.nukestrat.com/china/Book-173-196.pdf

Actually, they do need "super sophisticated systems to deliver them" to U.S. targets. Either that, or possible one guy crossing the U.S. border with Mexico carrying a tremendously heavy pallet sized suit case.

China does have the largest submarine fleet in the world, however, their subs are dedicated more toward the "threat" they perceive from the U.S. carriers and our Trident subs patrolling right off their coast.

They are said to have nuclear torpedoes to wipe out air craft carriers, but they have yet to demonstrate the ability to launch even a medium range ballistic missile from a sub. Their subs are designed for relatively short range missions. They have nothing like a Trident equipped U.S. submarine that can stay submerged for a months and launch missiles without even surfacing.

"High flying planes" are rather easy targets today. Also, the U.S. enjoyed complete air control over Japan in 1945, the two scenarios you propose with this just don't fit together. The Chinese Air Force would be obliterated after, or maybe even before, they reached Midway. That's why they have those 20 ICBMs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People'...tems_Estimates

The tables have data from the 2010 Annual Report to Congress: http://www.defense.gov/pubs/pdfs/2010_CMPR_Final.pdf

... and the Federation of American Scientists: http://www.fas.org/

Go back and reread Jay's comments. It's a plain fact, MacArthur was fired specifically because "our politicians then" had no "will to fight a total war." That's why it became a stalemate. Much is made about MacArthur's comments concerning nukes (which we didn't have in very large numbers at the time), but we have to also acknowledge the fact that the Chinese, Russians and NK were granted safe havens north of the Yalu River and we couldn't even bomb or shell their runways.

It's a little early to write the history of the Iraq and Afghanistan "wars." My son is in Afghanistan as we speak. And, don't forget: Afghanistan attacked us. We had to destroy their capability to maintain the terrorist bases and sanctuary that our enemies enjoyed over there.

We lost some 33,000 dead in Korea. Until recently, they didn't even have a monument.

What have we gained? You're right. Not much. However, that too was the policy of the United States. We didn't enter those wars to conquer territory nor were we seeking to "steal" mineral, petroleum or other natural resources (despite what the Lefties and the Ron Paul brigade said).

We fought for freedom and security. Freedom and security for ourselves and freedom and security for others around the globe.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

A word to the wise is sufficient.

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I wonder if the American public would have the heart to fight such a war. They want our troops to return now.

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

Ty! Quite illuminating! There is a sense in which truth has to come from at least two directions, for us, huh?

Re: Pentagon Report:War With China
 

I am not a historian as such, but I love history and have acquired over the course of years a number of such things, unfortunately, I could not remember if it was Truman or Eisenhower the had MacArthur in Korea, I apparently was remembering Eisenhower instead of Truman.

For the last 60+ years we have gone to war on behalf of the United Nations or with their permission. Most of our last wars were conducted that way, and when the United Nations told us to put an end to it, we hastily complied even if our objectives were unmet. For too many years, we have have been the enforcer at the U.N. and the time has passed to quit.