sin unto death?
 

( I Jn 5:16,17 ) What is a sin unto death?

Re: sin unto death?
 

From, GotQuestions.org: http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-unto-death.html

Question: "What is the sin unto death?"

Answer: First John 5:16 is one of the most difficult verses in the New Testament to interpret. “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” Of all the interpretations out there, none seems to answer all the questions concerning this verse. The best interpretation may be found by comparing this verse to what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 (see also 1 Corinthians 11:30). The “sin unto death” is deliberate, willful, continuous, unrepentant sin. God, in His grace, allows His children to sin without immediately punishing them. However, there comes a point when God will no longer allow a believer to continue in unrepentant sin. When this point is reached, God sometimes decides to punish a Christian, even to the point of taking his or her life.

That is what He did in Acts 5:1-10 and 1 Corinthians 11:28-32. This is perhaps what Paul described to the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. We are to pray for Christians who are sinning. However, there may come a time when God will no longer hear prayers for a sinning believer for whom He has determined that judgment is due. It is difficult to realize there are times when it is just too late to pray for a person. God is good and just, and we will just have to let Him decide when it is too late.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Hmm, this is a thoughtful answer, but seems incomplete, somehow? Doesn't really answer the Q, kind of? I wonder if "death" here might be taken improperly to mean "physical death?"
But this is just a feeling, right now; I'll be back! (exploring "sin that leads to spiritual death" v not...)

Re: sin unto death?
 

There is one sin that leads to spiritual death.. Not believing Jesus Christ is Lord.

Re: sin unto death?
 

In a spiritual sense, could it mean absolute apostasy, becoming a reprobate?

Re: sin unto death?
 

^Well, they would be spiritually dead; more or less a version of this;
But I would add here that, in retrospect at least, I was not spiritually alive after I had "accepted Christ!" (in Baptist fashion, with my mouth). I'm not putting it down, it started me on a better path, but I still produced no fruit for years..
I like the quote above, and think it is accurate as far as it goes, but not specific as to a particular sin or sins that might "lead to death."
It could in fact be that the title verse (which i can't see for a sec) just meant "if you aren't killed for doing something stupid" even, tho that might sound funny--I'll put the scripture in the engine tonite or tomorrow, if someone doesn't beat me to it, try to get a sense of context.

Re: sin unto death?
 

The commentary I'm reading agrees with Aquila without clarifying much specifically, but argues that spiritual death as a meaning here is doubtful http://biblecommenter.com/1_john/5-16.htm
A sin which is not unto death - The great question in the interpretation of the whole passage is, what is meant by the "sin unto death." The Greek (ἁμαρτία πρὸς θάνατον hamartia pros thanaton) would mean properly a sin which "tends" to death; which would "terminate" in death; of which death was the penalty, or would be the result, unless it were arrested; a sin which, if it had its own course, would terminate thus, as we should speak of a disease "unto death."

Re: sin unto death?
 

Can it be something that causes you to physically die, like heavy drinking or shooting up? as compared to stealing, which doesn't kill you( unless you're shot dead by the one you're stealing from.)


:doggyrun

Re: sin unto death?
 

And/or homosexual?

Not my thoughts - but I have known people who have stated this.

Re: sin unto death?
 

The commentaries seem to be leaning that way; toward something which would cause a penalty of death, or physical death. Which is somewhat contrary to my belief that the Bible is always discussing spiritual stuff, even when it seems like it's talking about physical stuff? but, i've spent like 5 minutes here...

Re: sin unto death?
 

That would have been punishable by death then, so a potential/probable yup.

Re: sin unto death?
 

I was taught its simply, literally "sin unto you die." See, if you're alive, you have space for reproof, repentance, and so on. If you're dead only thing left is judgement.

So a sin not unto death is simply not continuing in sin until death. A a sin unto death is sinning until you die. The former could be helped but the latter can't be.

Re: sin unto death?
 

No.

Re: sin unto death?
 

I don't want to know what it is. I think Paul said, don't pray for it, or in other words don't seek to know what it is? I may be wrong, but, what we know is what we are expected to obey and what we know between right and wrong is what we are accountable for, or what can be held accountable against us.
I think a sin unto death would be one similar to what happen to Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts Chpt. 5. A sin when you commit it you drop over dead.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Well, a lot of the commentary seems to be leaning that way; but I note that this would seem to negate "a sin that leads unto death," singular (which would seem to suggest denial of the Holy Spirit, or not being born from above, which you would think could be prayed for?) as opposed to "sin that does not lead unto death," without the "a," in the very next verse.
Houston, do you know, and are just torturing us? I'm still looking, but my guess for now will be the sin of "separation," a single sin that may be accomplished multiple ways?

And, I think it's beneficial to know, if for no other reason than to avoid, or to be able to recognize. This was brought home to me in my study of "hate," which many naturally shy away from, and even call a sin! (and yes, I'm aware of John)--but, it led me to a deeper understanding of love! Like that, maybe.

Re: sin unto death?
 

This might not apply specifically here; Houston seems convinced it doesn't--but it is still valid.

Re: sin unto death?
 

That scenario doesn't fit. We are told not to pray for one who sins a sin unto death. Last I checked, we don't pray for dead people.

Re: sin unto death?
 

We do if we believe that God will raise them from the dead. :jolly

However as that is not what is under discussion I will leave it alone for now.

Re: sin unto death?
 

when you die your fate is sealed.

lds baptize by proxy.

catholics pray for those in pergatory.

you were saying.

Re: sin unto death?
 

We do if we believe that God will raise them from the dead.

when you die your fate is sealed.

Yup, until the moment you come to life? Just define "die" for me, real quick : )

Re: sin unto death?
 

The thing is people do try to pray for the dead. And telling one to not pray for one who sins a sin unto death is telling one not to pray for the dead.

It seems you're looking for a sin or deed that is a "sin unto death" and is unforgivable or that can't be prayed for. But think of it like this if one lives a life full of sin and then subsequently dies in that sinful state, then the life they lived is consider a sin.

For it is a sin to NOT live a life for God.
It is a sin to live in sin.
It is a sin to die in sin.
So it is a sin to "sin unto death" and it can't be forgiven, and thus we are not to pray for such.

Re: sin unto death?
 

"It seems you're looking for a sin or deed that is a "sin unto death" and is unforgivable or that can't be prayed for..."

That seems to be what the Scripture points to, here? I could cheat, and ask a scholar--but I'm sure curious.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Like developing cancer from smoking?

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Paul did say that some of the Corinthians were "asleep" (physically dead) because they observed the Lord's Supper unworthily.

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Isn't the topic prayer? In other words if we see a saint who is dying as a direct result of their sin, we might pray for their salvation, but not for their healing?

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isn't that what i said? :christmascaroling



;doggyrun

Re: sin unto death?
 

um; I'm seeing the death in smoking, but find it hard to connect with "there is A sin unto death...?"

Re: sin unto death?
 

Well if you're trying to find a single sin instead of the act of sinning itself, then I say maybe suicide?

But I still see the scripture as referring to not praying for the one that has physically died in there sin but for the brother that is physically alive and sinning. For the living have space for change, repentance but the dead can do nothing.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Hmm; hadn't considered suicide here--def "a sin unto death," literally...we'l have to see, as I'm pretty sure Houston has some Rev here, and is just torturing us...

Re: sin unto death?
 

Are you going to enlighten us, Houston? I'm finding the commentary on this pretty...unhelpful.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Is where I am led.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Maybe it's best to view this as sin that leads to the judgment of God. God may choose to judge a person by taking them out, yet ultimately save their soul. Or... God may judge someone, take them out, and condemn them forever. It's up to God.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Well, now you'll have me argue semantics; wouldn't that have been translated the same as the previous? But it isn't. That "a" in there...it seems the commentaries have as much problem with it as we are.

Re: sin unto death?
 

lol Very true.

Re: sin unto death?
 

hasn't the catholic church defined seven deadly sins? sins that can lead to damnation, unlike less grave sins that might not jeopardize our salvation.

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Ha, yup; if only they could back it up with Scripture...

Re: sin unto death?
 

Last I checked, all sins were sins that condemned the soul to Hell.

Re: sin unto death?
 

Then what is your interpretation here? I've spent several hours on this, at this point (42 minutes), and ruled out blasphemy of Holy Spirit, prolly the most obvious...

I also think I have to back off of such a strict interpretation of the use of "a" here, "a sin that leads to death," as necessarily being a single sin; even in the context of this verse, where no "a" occurred for "sin that does not lead to death," because it can be a literary device that would indicate a class, and thus still be plural.

I think the best instances of this "a sin that leads to death" are in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 7:16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."

Jeremiah 11:14 "Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress."

Jeremiah 14:11 Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people."

possibly best summarized as

Numbers 15:30 "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people."

So, the same sin a neo might commit in ignorance might have me condemned to death.

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Which the popists may have just (naturally) been more zealous in codifying?

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You would not say that if you had read the entire portion instead of just grabbing a few verses. God commands Jeremiah to not pray, petition, or plead for them, because they were not repentant of very specific sins. These include idolatry, ritual murder, blatant murder, a variety of perversion, injustice, violence, etc. The entire Law was broken habitually and deliberately by the people of Judah. After many warnings, returnings, pleadings, and travailings over them, God was sick of them. That is why the warnings were given. Read the Kings, Chronicles, and Prophets, and you will find very specific reasons that God gave them to judgment.

Re: sin unto death?
 

If truth be known, I think that the manner in which Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, which you've previously mentioned, provides what is perhaps the best [most accurate] explanation or definition of what John's phrase - "sin unto death" - truly implies.

["The Greek (ἁμαρτία πρὸς θάνατον hamartia pros thanaton) would mean properly a sin which "tends" to death; which would "terminate" in death; of which death was the penalty, or would be the result, unless it were arrested; a sin which, if it had its own course, would terminate thus, as we should speak of a disease "unto death."]

Let's consider an example (one among many in the scriptures) which provides evidence of the fate of a "righteous" man who continually commits an act(s) of "unrighteousness;" bearing at the fore of our thoughts that John also advises that "All unrighteousness is sin" (I John 5:17); and the action God undertakes to 1.) assist the offender to be made aware of his "unrighteousness" and 2.) it's eventual consequences if it is left unattended (by repentance and refraining from doing such sinful acts in the future):

"When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezekiel 3:20-21)

Comparing the context of these passages with John's phrase; and using Barnes' Notes as our guide in attempting to understand the manner in which one might be found guilty of having committed an act(s) of "unrighteousness" [which the offender was apparently unaware of], then we see that God will always send someone to the guilty party so that the two(2) things I've noted might be accomplished; for if left unattended after being so informed, death would be the eventual consequence of such sinful deeds, hence, it can rightly be called a "sin unto death."

As I noted, there are other examples of some rather notable "holy men" of olden times who were found guilty of having committed acts of "unrighteousness" on a continual basis, whom God took action to cause them to become aware of their sinful deeds; however, we find that if the demanded corrective steps had not been undertaken by the offender, death would have been it's result, hence, they had committed a "sin unto death." Indeed, the scriptures tell us of one such notable individual whom He had found to be guilty of having (unwittingly/ignorantly/neglectfully) commited a "sin unto death," yet after the demanded corrective actions had been accomplished, that man of renown performed some of the most remarkable accomplishments for God than any other (excepting Christ Jesus, of course) that the Bible relates.... want to know who that man was? You'll perhaps be quite surprised to learn of him and his continual act of "unrighteousnes" which could have led to his death!