The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

It seems that the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is gaining serious traction in apostolic circles. Maybe I am just arriving late to the party, but I'm seeing and hearing some rather alarming things from fairly prominent men.

Today I was listening to a sermon online which centered on the Lord's prayer and "Finacial Dominion." One of the main points of emphasis was that when Jesus used the word "debts" he really meant "finacial debts" or finacial obligations. I am floored by such statements.

I have seen preachers say somthing along the lines of "I wish people would throw money at me while I was preaching" and then people immediately start doing it.

I have recently heard (second hand, not with my own ears yet) that a pastor preached to his congregation that they ought to "make a covenant with this pastor" and encourage the members to enter into a covenant with him concerning their tithes.

of course this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I'm hardly attempting to make a long list here, just throwing out a few things to start a conversation.

What do you think? Do such things bother you? Do you just ignore them? Do you think that the Bible should be the final authority on all church doctrine and practice?

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Do they bother me? Big time.

But I have only witnessed such a few times, fortunately.

Throwing money at the feet of a speaker is ridiculous. I simply would not be party to any such foolishness.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

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I'm surprised your surprised. This is the way things have always been taught when we were in the UPC during the 80's in Wisconsin.

As far as the bolded goes, if I ever heard a preacher say that I would probably throw an egg, Randy Johnson style, at him -then walk out.

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There have been a few times when someone was preaching in our services and someone felt to go up and lay an offering on the altar. It started a response and people kept coming and giving. There were times when I felt that it was a spirit of sacrificial giving that kind of swept through the place. It's not uncommon among charismatic circles, but it's still strange to me. It is VERY common among black churches. Anyway.........in our services, the money NEVER went to the preacher, but to the building fund or to some special need.

BUT for a preacher to make that statement is just goofy and self seeking. If it happens, it should be because God is moving on someone to give.

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I happen to know that preacher very well, and he's the least money-hungry person I've ever known. And most definitely not self-seeking.

Don't forget that sound-bites can be taken way out of context, and you can't judge someone or their ministry by one sound-bite.

AQP many preachers have made similar statements, most notably is probably the youtube video where Creflo Dollar and Leroy Thompson are dancing in peoples money (check it out if you haven't seen it). That stuff is disgusting and ungodly, but its par for the course as far as that group is concerned. What is alarming is when apostolic men seem to buy into such theology. I'm just floored when I hear men who I believe to be students of the word teach such unbiblical concepts. I don't get it. Such was the case when I listened to an online sermon today, I couldn't believe what was being said or what scripture was being used to justify it.

For the record I didn't accuse anyone of being money hungry but I did question what priority sound Bible doctrine has in the 21st century apostolic church. It seems in some cases we're swallowing the arguments of prosperity preachers hook,line, and sinker. And I'm asking why? Why do we need the prosperity gospel modifed to fit apostolics? If we are going to be a restorationist movement then we shouldn't settle for cracker box theology. I'm speaking in a general sense, not specific, though my thread was based on specific things I've witnessed by eye or ear. Do you think the oneness movement at large is drifting towards TBN style name it and claim it?

I'm thinking such things as the shoe auction, tithing drives, waving money in the air, conference offerings where people are told if they don't give their families wil be destroyed (America on Fire in Dallas a few years back), and the charismatic trend to name drop God. "God spoke to me and said tell my people ......" and then they go into an appeal. Did/does God really tell them to say that? And if He didn't and they say He did aren't they false prophets? The "law" of sowing and reaping being applied so often to money, but rarely to choices we make in life, when Galatians 6 so plainly sets it in order "God is not mocked." "Let me see your checkbook and I can tell if you serve God or not." Hogwash.

He's not the only preacher that ever said it, its more and more common, that's the point. The line is being blurred on this issue in the oneness movement as a whole. The first post had 3 questions, I'm especially interested in the last question as far as this thread goes. "Is the Bible our final authority for ALL church doctrine and practice?"

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Well... I rather just have someone ask me to throw money at them while they preach than tell me how I will be struck dead instantly and spend eternity in a tormenting hell for robbing God if I do not allow them to extort 10% of my families gross income plus offerings.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Ok...I am on a study right now about denying oneself, taking up our cross and following Jesus.

None of this type of nonsense preaching/insinuating money should be thrown at the preacher's feet is what Christ taught. Even the 10% tithe is not NT teachings. However, I have nothing to say about those who wish to give 10% of their income to the church. They can do what they want with their money. Extortion? Yes it is if the preacher doesn't teach New Testament giving. God loves a cheerful giver and the Bible does not specify who we should give it to. And no, the tithe doesn't go to God as it is often said to the congregation, it goes into the preacher's pocket, although many smaller churches use it to pay bills instead of going into the pastor's pocket.

Christ taught...give us this day, our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses. Why can we not have a lesson in Christ's humility and forget the tithe preaching and say this in the spirit of Christ?

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Good post, and the bolded is the point that sprung the thread. How in the world can someone work personal finances into the Lord's prayer? I am completely stunned.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Amen!

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I wish I could say I had never seen this nonsense, but I have on at least 3 or 4 occasions at my church. 2 times I think by the same Pastor of a UPC church in San Diego who was preaching for us.

Then another time on Father's Day by another Pastor. FATHER'S DAY! We didn't get a sermon about how important it is to be a godly father. Nope...we got "you should get teh right spirit and GIVE sacrificially" followed by the Pastor laying money on the altar and STRONGLY implying that everyone should do the same if they wanted to be BLESSED.

I wonder if these men realize how disgustingly similar this practice is to Indulgences? Buying blessings from God, etc.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

What is disturbing to me is that there seems to be no real concern for the real meaning of the text. To read personal finances into the Lord's prayer is to have complete disregard for the context itself.

The Lord’s prayer has essentially nothing to do with financial debt. To read personal finances into it is to completely disregard the clear meaning of the text. To go a step further and claim that financial dominion is at stake in the believers life is nothing short of psychological manipulation. The word debt in Matthew 6:12 plainly refers to sin, not any kind of financial debt. This point is further driven home when at the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer Jesus expounds on verse 12 in verses 14-15 which read 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt 6:14-15 (KJV) The word that Jesus uses for trespasses in v.14&15 in explaining the meaning of v.12 is the word paraptoma, translated trespass, fall, fault, sin. For example it is the word used in Ephesisans 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” There should be absolutely no doubt about the meaning of the word debt in Matthew 6:12. It simply does not have financial overtones, either explicitly or implicitly.
Luke 11:4 is a parallel scripture in which Luke uses the word harmartia which is translated sins. That word is used 174 times in the Greek New Testament, 172 times it is translated sin, 1 time sinful, and 1 time offense.
Furthermore Matthew 18:21-35 expounds on the same topic and subject manner as Matthew 6:12,14-15 where debt is used in a parable, with the point being the same debt is sin. True enough in the parable the debt is a financial debt, however the word translated debt in Matthew 18:27 is not the same word used in Matthew 6:12. And a simple study of the parable reveals that the debt is like unto our sin debt, which is so great we couldn’t repay it to God if we lived a thousand lifetimes. We owe a debt to God because of our sins which we have absolutely no means to pay, but God freely forgives us, and because of this we are to forgive others in like manner as God forgave us.
In addition to these things apparently one would have to look long and hard to find any reputable scholar or commentator willing to accept such an interpretation of Matthew 6:12. From what I was able to dig up on the fly, NO source was willing to endorse any such idea. The overwhelming interpretation is simply that debts=sins, not money, not financial peace, financial dominion, or financial prosperity.

There are six petitions in this prayer. It is appropriate that the first three concern God directly: his name, his kingdom, his will. The Christian’s primary concerns therefore are that God’s name be hallowed, that his kingdom come, that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Only then are the next three petitions introduced, and they have to do with man directly: our daily food, our sins (“our debts”), and our temptations. Sin is pictured in the prayer as a debt. Sin incurs a debt which must be discharged. In Aramaic, which is the language Jesus probably uses in preaching this sermon, it is not uncommon to refer to sin as a debt. ~D.A. Carson, The Sermon on the Mount, pg.61-62,68

“Sin is not nowdays a popular word. Men and women rather resent being called , or treated as hell-deserving sinners.” Barclay then goes on to explain there are 5 different words translated sin in the New Testament “The fifth word for sin is the word opheilema which is the word used in the body of the Lord’s prayer; and opheilema means a debt. It means a failure to pay that which is due, a failure in duty. There can be no man who will ever dare to claim that he has perfectly fulfilled his duty to man and to God: such perfection does not exist among men.”~ William Barclay, The Gospel of Matthew, pg.219-221

“The confession of debts is in relation to our sins or debts owed to God.”~Myron S. Augsurger, The Preacher’s Commentary, pg.82

“The Greek word for debts in the New Testament appears only here and Romans 4:4. It is clear that Jesus and Matthew intended the word to mean “sins” here (Luke 11:4). The choice of this word reflects the fact that all sins place us in debt to God.”~Stuart K. Weber, The Holman New Testament Commentary, Matthew, pg. 82

“Our sins are debts.”~Matthew Henry, The NIV Matthew Henry Commentary in One Volume, Matthew, Pg. 28

“The sinner and the debtor are most certainly related. Sin makes us all debtors to God.”~The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary, Debt, pg. 444

“Debt is used as a synonym for sin in Mt 6:12. The word chosen is to emphasize our duty of forgiveness.”~Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Debt, pg. 183

Here’s the point: Those in Berea “were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11. The church in most cases is simply unwilling to hold its ministers accountable. People don’t want the confrontation and controversy which comes with holding someone accountable to be true to the context of the Word. We are too often simply unwilling to divest ourselves into any kind of deep study of the Word, and so such statements go unchallenged because frankly the congregation doesn’t know the difference. As such the prosperity gospel grows in influence in churches which claim to be Apostolic, i.e, teaching and conforming to the Apsotles’ doctrine. That sounds good, but it is like the Mormons saying they believe in grace. As one man commented, “you are using God’s vocabulary, but not God’s dictionary.”
It is true that God desires to bless us, and it is true that the Bible speaks of favorably of prosperity. It is also true that the Bible allows for teachers of the Word to be compensated by the saints. However, the Bible also speaks quite sternly against covetousness, making merchandise of the people of God, warns of people who will make religion a profitable business, taking advantage of those who don’t know any better, speaks against people being taught to give through compulsion, speaks against giving to get, and instructs New Testament saints “You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And DON’T GIVE reluctantly or IN RESPONSE TO PRESSURE.”2 Cor 9:7 (NLT) (emphasis added)
I believe it is time that the church demand contextual responsibility from its preachers. And that preachers make it their desire to be faithful stewards of the Word of God, not peddlers of cheap doctrines, popularized by con men in the most literal sense. One need not be an enemy of such men who have been influenced by the prosperity doctrines. Paul withstood Peter to his face because Peter was in the wrong. They continued to have a great relationship, Peter even referred to Paul's letters as scripture. Just because I'm pointing out these issues don't assume my motive is evil. In fact to assign a motive without knowing the true intents is to falsely accuse or bear false witness against your neighbor. I have not assigned an evil motive to any man in particular, what I am saying is this prosperity theology is complete error and as God's people we need to recognize that error, expose that error, and abandon that error as fast as we can.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I appreciate what U bring to this forum, Jason. Even tho you've backed off a little, don't quit all together. I like to learn from ya. :)

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

T2W... somehow I figure that you would throw change... that stuff can hurt. :)

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I've been in the "money chunker" circles and I've been a "money chunker".

But I'm feeling much better now. :)

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

So, in your Post Modern church, how does the Power Bill get paid, the Building Loan get paid, the Property Taxes, the Parking Lot repaved, the walls repainted, etc, etc, etc.

If you want to live by "New Testament Standards" give ALL that you have to the church. Even they found out that doing that did not work. So guess what, the Old Testament teachings of Tithes and Offerings works to maintain your place of worship.

If it is going straight into your pastors pocket, then your church is doing it wrong.

I do agree with Jason that the Lords Prayer has nothing to do with Tithes and Offerings.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Giving ALL that you have is not a NT standard. This is the NT standard:
2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The person who gives ALL should do it cheerfully from his heart
The person who gives 10% should do it cheerfully from his heart.


Where did you get this from?

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Who carries eggs with them to church? Lol

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

1, one, uno instance of NT shows the people giving all and living with all things common. It is not echoed in any other NT letter. Nor is it recorded in early Church history to my knowledge. This argument is dishonest at best.

Second, you are asking the wrong question. The proper question would be "should we have expensive buildings and massive debt for church buildings to begin with". Nowhere are we commanded to go and build church buildings. You have to look centures, as in hundreds of years) past the Apostles to find the dedicated church building become common.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Massive debt? A church will seat 100 people will cost about $700K or more. That includes parking lot and everything. It is not cheap to build a church from scratch. However; good luck having consistent "gathering of the saints" in your own house. There are zoning laws about that (as we have seen as of late).

As for scripture: Acts Chapter 5 is where Ananias and Sapphira were examples of "Giving all" but they kept a portion and lied about it.

Acts Chapter 4: 32-37 were examples of New Testament Giving. Chapter 5 explains what was the result of that. Later, Paul writes about the church at Jerusalem starving because that had no means of income, because that had sold all their land (or means of income) and the churches of Asia had to send money to help them.


However, it is kinda funny, you non-tithers sound just like the OWS crowd. Take take take, but never understand what a fair share really is. Every, Non-Tither church I have seen here in my city, has shut down in these hard time. The Tithers, doors are open, handing out charity to the others.

From a business standpoint, the strategy works. The basic biblical principle of tithes and offerings works.

EDIT: I think I threw this thread off a bit.

Name it and Claim it does not work. Only the "Will of God" works. Let us pry "Thine Will be Done."

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Right on, and an excellent post! As my friend Barefoot Pilgrim has pointed out, it becomes "filthy lucre" when used this way.

Now, about that tithe.....

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Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Now I was just thinkin' ..... you know, Been Thinkin.... Maybe I could have them throw money at me, get a big pile of it, go make a deposit, and then repent! Would that work? lol

Been Thinkin

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I fear that many of our church budgets spend the majority of their income on clothing housing and feeding one family in the church.

Little is left sometimes to do anything constructive in the community.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Name it and claim it is a false doctrine that claims that one can force God to give them stuff by giving stuff, like a formula. It is an unscriptural doctrine.

Tithing is a false doctrine that extorts 10% of a persons gross income by claiming that they will be cursed, killed or spend eternity in a tormenting hell for the sin of 'robbing God'. It too is an unscriptural doctrine.

The New Testament principle for financial stewardship is called giving. If a group of called ones is not able to maintain whatever they are responsible for by giving then teaching should be implemented in basic discipleship including stewardship. If those principles can not be instilled in the group than it might be better if that group does break up and each member move into a place where they can grow into spiritual maturity. By the same token if a group has to be lied to, strong armed, coerced, deceived or threatened to 'tithe' than it is probably also better if that group breaks up and seeks fellowship somewhere that will grow them to personal maturity as individuals, whether they can afford to stay together or not. In both cases there is a lack of cheerful giving, the only kind that God accepts, after all He really does not need our money. :)

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"Is the Bible our final authority for ALL church doctrine and practice?"

becomes too general a Q, I think, due to interpretation?Leaving aside the comments about tithing not being scriptural, or no designation for tithes being scripturally offered (aren't you supposed to tithe where you are spiritually fed, according to scripture?) I'd like to suggest that this quote, and the comment (maybe still) above this one, by Titus2woman, I believe? Points to the simple solution of judging each ministry by its fruit; a pretty simple task nowdays, despite any lack of disclosure. (well, lack of disclosure might be your first clue...)
May as well start with "that preacher?"

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I can only imagine how our individual images of tithing became so disparate; but I have never felt "extorted," and would laugh in the face of anyone who made the claims that your shorthand (I presume) above attributes to "tithing." I would have to get my ducks lined up to present a good argument, here, but this seems to be a great description of what tithing is not? Without even looking, Christ Himself as much as said that extorted money is not a tithe?

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Titus2woman is correct.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Besides the fact that there is no scripture to support New Testament tithing there is a lot wrong with it on a common sense level too.

A flat 10% will severely affect the poor in a negative way while someone with a good income will not even feel it and may have much more than they will ever need in their lifetime left over after a tenth. Yet with our inability to avoid being respecters of persons we will naturally give a place of honor to the one who gives most.

For those reasons the bible tells us to give as we are prospered. For someone wealthy that might mean giving the 90% and living on the 10%... When was the last time you saw that happen? Also the church should be supporting the poor... In a real giving situation the plate could be passed with those who can giving and those with needs taking from it... Now does that sound weird? Yes to most it will... because even when we give we are used to someone else determining HOW that money is spent.

We have in essence hired someone to help our poor, visit our sick, marry and bury us. And in the worst cases do our studying, praying and fasting. And that is paid for most often with the 'tithe'... no wonder we love it... what a bargain! If we 'paid up' in a real way how much harder would it be?

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Whoops!

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These are some of the statements that I find absolutely mind boggling (all in direct reference to Matthew 6:12) with a couple of thoughts in red.

"Everyday you should pray the Lord's prayer in regards to your money. First ins't this the passage of scripture where Jesus points out "DO NOT" use vain repetitions like the heathen"? Does anyone else see irony in this statement? Is this a Catholic church or Apostolic church? Catholics consider themselves Apostolic, so maybe its okay to borrow from their lithurgy? Second if we pray the Lord's prayer in regard to our money, are we not serving the opposite purpose? Is not the purpose of the Lord's prayer complete submission to God so that His will can be done on earth as it is in heaven? Should not our greatest desire be the complete submission of our will and desire to God? Is not this the very thing Jesus prayed for in the garden? And is this not the single greatest human struggle, to completely get our own will, desire, and ambition out of the way and seek to serve God completely and wholly? And even if such prayer was said with good intentions, does not praying in regard to ones personal finances and "financial dominion" make the prayer ABOUT US, about our ultimate desires and ambitions? The whole point of praying such a prayer is so that one might have financial abundance. God will bless, no one is arguing that point, but the question is should we actively seek the blessing or just obey God and allow Him to bless us in His time and ways? If we make it a point to pray every single day the Lord's prayer in regards to OUR MONEY are not we feeding selfish ambition? Should we pray everyday that our financial debt be forgiven as we forgive people who owe us money? or should we pray everyday that if we have committed any sin (using the interpretation most regurly accepted) it be forgiven us, as we forgive every sin which has been committed against us? Should we not be praying that we would love others the way Christ loves them, that we judge others not, but see them as God sees them, thorugh his eyes. Should we not pray that God reveal in us secret faults? Should we not pray that God reveal in us bitterness, jealousy, pride, bad attitudes, or any of the sins of the spirit? There are so many other things to pray for, and I'm not against praying that God help us to be good stewards of his blessings, or help us to have our eyes open to the needs of other people so that we may finanically bless them. But when we make a point everyday to pray for our own finances, are we not making money priority no.1? Could it not be argued that ones financial peace is actually MORE important to them that their relationship with God, but they go to God in prayer because they believe He is the means to their ultimate end (money)?

Matthew used this [The Lord's prayer, Matt 6:12] as the centerpiece of Christ's teaching on money. Most of the time we spiritualize the debts. We think of the debt in terms of sin. Matthew says debts-why did he say debts? He meant debt. He wanted you to understand so we could pray everyday "Lord, forgive me my debts."I have yet to find any Bible commentator who accepts this position, and I quoted several and some Bible Dictionaries also. But all is not lost, I did find one prospserity gospel blogger who endorsed such an interpretation. Come on, if we (Apostolics) are supposed to be the formost representatives of Bible truth on the earth we've got to do better than this.

"our being forgiven of debt is wrapped up in forgiving others of debt. This is a matter of forgiving people who owe you money, actual money. Where is this stuff coming from? It a matter of forgiveness, period. Forgiving monetary debt would only be one of a myriad of offences, it is certainly not the main emphasis of the passage. You would think that Jesus explaination of v.12 in v.14-15 would clearly illustrate that. I don't just forgive people who owe me money, I forgive people who lie about me, who have formed incorrect opinoins about me, people who have phyiscally, mentally, emotionally hurt me. People who would consider me their enemies, people who abused my family members. I forgive every offence because God has forgiven me every offence.


I'm wondering how many in this place tense up everytime there a special offering is recieved? Its not that you don't want to do it, its that for many, many, many Christians after the bills are paid, the groceries are bought, they pay their tithes AND their regular commitment offering there's nothing left. [I'd like to see the day that you'd be able ] to give $1,000 without blinking."Of course there's nothing left after they give their tithes, then another offering-because it is taught that a man robs God in tithes AND offerings, and so 10% isn't enough, THEN giving tithes and regular offerings ins't enough, because when there's a special offering they should be expected to give even more! Of course those in favor of prosperity gospel want people to give $1,000 without blinking. Such is the religious ponzi scheme.

So when we are praying over our money we must understand its about being tested and whoopin' the devil at his own game. It's about victory. Its about dominion.No we know this is pentecostal prosperity gospel becuase we are whoopin' the devil. Good grief, if we want to "whoop the devil" then live a Christ like life. Steve Jobs just died having not known the Lord, but he sure whooped that old devil. With all those millionaires whoopin the devil, theres hardly any whoopin left to go around, that is unless whoopin the devil has litte to nothing to do with our checkbook. PS-do we even need to worry about the devil? Is he not defeated? Why do pentecostals spend some much time on the devil? Does the devil have any real control? Can he make us do a single thing? Do we think the devil is soverign? The prosperity gospel is the only thing I hate worse than the power the pentecostals ascribe to the devil.

God's greatest adversary is money."I can't believe it. This isn't stuff taught in the backwoods in a church with 3 barefoot saints, this isn't stuff being taught on TBN, this is being taught in a prominent aposotolic church that quite frankly ought to know better.


"When Jacob told Joseph to go check on his brothers, he wasn't just going down to spy on them and bring an evil report. No the evil report he brought was an Excel spreadsheet. It was accounting! Jospehwas the stweard of the house and brought back an account to his father of his brothers financial malfeasance. Wasting resources. Jospeh was an accountant."This is the problem with the prosperity gospel, it views everything through the eyes of money. Money, money money, money. Thats why someone is willing to disregard the plain and accepted meaning of debts in the Lord's prayer and substitute the 21st century English meaning rather than the 1st century Aramaic meaning. Its like some prosperity preachers who teach Jesus was rich because Judas held the money bag.

God wants us to be blessed. God wants your family to be blessed. I'm going to preach it again, and again, and again. And no matter how much I have to beat my head against that old prosperity gospel. I'll just tell you right now that the prosperity gospel is a smoke screen that the devil has thrown up to keep us from SEEKING what RIGHTFULLY BELONGS TO US. He has decieved us into believing that you either have to preach prosperity gospel or poverty gospel. One or the other. And I'm telling you they are both wrong and right in the middle is BLESSING GOSPEL. Its called SEED of ABRAHAM GOSPEL." I've seen TBN preachers use this same tactic. They seek to redefine their message and make sure everyone is clear it is not prospertiy gospel. It is not name it and claim it. Then they go on to preach those very same things just under a new term. Politicians use the same tactic. Few will say I'm a communist, now its a socialist. That term is getting a black mark and now its the "99%". Changing the label doesn't change the content and emphasis on the teaching. If no one else is willing to call it what it is this is PROSPERITY GOSPEL. Think about which biblical character more than any others do prosperity preachers use to justify their lavish lifestyles? Is it not ABRAHAM? Why do all these preachers for get to mention that Abraham wasn't a preacher? King David wasn't a preacher. Job wans't a preacher.

What kind of lifestyle did SAMUEL live? What about ELIJAH? ELISHA? ISAIAH, JEREMIAH? AMOS? HOSEA? JOHN the BAPTIST? PETER? JOHN? JAMES? PAUL? WHAT BIBLICAL PREACHER EVER LIVED A LIFE OF FINACIAL LUXUARY ON THE EARTH? These preachers had homes, the had transportation, they had food, wives, children. They lived a life that was the life of an average person, they had their needs met and didn't normally have to worry about where the next meal was coming from-but none lived lavishly, most ended up at some point paying the ultimate price for their faith in God, and not a one of them lived head and shoulders above the average person of their day.

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I think most churches would have a problem building a church from the ground up for only 700K. And reality shows us that churches often spare few expenses when it comes to building a church.

You completely misunderstand non tithers position, and seek to black label them as non-givers. I'm a "non-tither". Doesn't mean I don't give. I give all the time. Do you give to people in need? Christmas is a tough time of year for low income people, especially in this economy, did you help anyone out with a significant gift? I'm not talking about dropping a dollar in the salvation army bucket, though I believe God blesses all giving, even that. Children are starving in the world, do you care? Do you do anything to help, or just wait until your church gives? Christians are persucted all over the world do you help them out with finacnes? Do you suppport missions (not just your church-do you?) Please don't feel obligated to answer those questions, I don't plan to either. The point is that non-tithers are not necessarily non-givers. And if they are non tithers only or primarily so they can keep more of their money, then God already knows their motives, nd we are warned in Ephesians that greedy/covetous person can inherit the Kingdom of God. Greed has nothing to do with %. A tither can be greedy. They can (and many do) give out of fear, not faith. Tithing turns into legalism and works0righteousness. It destroys 1 Peter 1:18-19 and does in effect say you are redeemed by corruptible things like silver and gold.
Now that is solid reasoning. Hard to argue with that. The ends justifies the means. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, case closed.
And people say the same thing about uncut hair. People say the same thing about wearing a bulb of garlic around their neck warding off evil spirits. Furthermore tithing DOESN'T always work, in fact it rarely works the way it is taught. is not it taught that the tither ought to have a blessing that "you cannot contain"? Is it not suppossed to be pressed down-shaken together and running over? Do you not plant one seed and get an abundant harvest from that one seed? Isn't the "LAW" of sowing and reaping presented that the harvest ALWAYS produces more than what was planted? Then why do many tithers struggle? Why do they have to watch their buget when they buy groceries? if they tithe shouldn't they be so blessed that even something so basic as filling the pantry with groceries should be done without a second thought? Why did tithers in a Texas aposotlic church live without elictricity for at least a couple of months because they choose to pay their tithes instead? Why did an employee of mine who paid tithes faithfully (when he couldn't really afford to) lose his house and end up living in someones backyard in an old unused travel trailer with a family, only to later lose his family becuase his wife got fed up with living like that? Do those people all say it works? You know what, most of them do, because they are scared to death of hell. But the thing is God didn't break his word, men took scriptures out of context, and the end result is that instead of building up peoples faith, many (not all) have had their faith shaken, and certainly some have abandoned it alltogether. The world thinks the church is only out for their money, and when they here such things as have been mentioned on this thread as a first time visitor to AN APOSTOLIC CHURCH (come on, were not talking about Creflo Dollar here) who could blame them?

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I believe it is a very vital question. If the Bible is NOT the final authority, then churches can condone anything that "works" which has become the way most American churches have church. As such we have Super Bowl parties in the church. Give away ipods, TV's, even cars at Easter service (you know-so the sinner is enticed to come, its all about evangelism),etc.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Who said it is not important. What is important is this is being taught in "Bible believing" churches and it is a shame. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is prosperity gospel no matter how much one tries to deny it.

"You gotta put your tithe first. now this is not just me trying to get your money, its God trying to get your money. Because if God can get your money he's got your life. If he can get your money he has your heart. Where your treasure is so will your heart follow. Just like Elijah and the widow. I'm gonna tell you there would have been alot of folks offended by the Elijah ministries incorporated. Because he dared tell a little widow woman who was as poor as she could be, and was about to die, last meal before her and her son die. And that preacher. That money grubbin, money hungry preacher, looked at her and said feed me first. But Elijah understood something powerful, if he could get her to feed him, God was obligated to her. If he could get her to feed him, they were going to ocme into a partnership here. Because Jesus said however you receive the ones I send is how you recieve me. You give to a prophet a cup of cold water, you get a prophets reward. So Elijah knows God's gonna take are of him, because he's God's man. So he's saying to the little widow, give it to me first....

Brothers and sisters look at me. I'm the man of God in your life. The tithe that you pay is what I eat my bread from. My family and I survive. And so when you tithe you're entering into partnership, not just with me, but your entering into partnership with God. When you bring your tithe you're entering into an agreement....When you bring your tithe you're entering into a communication with me. Into a partnership with me as your pastor. And what happens is God's going to take care of me. He called me to this place. He put me here and he's going to pay my bills, He's always done it, God's been good to me. But here's what happens when you take a pledge to enter into partnership with God by tithing for the support of the ministry that feeds you spiritual bread. Paul said if we have sown to you spiritual things, is it any great thing that we reap your carnal? i like the way he said that without stuttering. He didn't even blink. He wasn't the least bit embarrassed. He wasn't like I often have been, struggling with defensiveness about asking people for money. Paul didn't seem nervous at all. He just said if I've sown to you spiritual things, how much more valuable, Paul is saying, are the spiritual things that I have given you in terms of the carnal things that I could ask for in return?

Really, lets talk about whose getting the fair end of the deal here. Whose getting something more valuable? You're receiving the Word of God, all I'm gettin' is gold. Gold that is cankered and deteriorates and corrupts. All I'm getting out of the deal is money. Well I hope I'm getting more than that, I hope I'm getting your loyalty and all kinds of other things. But in this exchange whose getting the more valuable thing?"

"So we bring our tithe first so that you can enter into a partnership with God. When you bring your tithe and you bring your offering and you bring your commitment you are entering into an agreement with me. And when you enter into an agreement with me, you've got God on your side. Because now you've brought a prophet a cup of cold water and now you're about to step into a prohets reward. Now see thats been terribly distorted by the TV preachers, and the prosperity gospel guys. They've turned that into nothing but just a way to rip people off and get money from people when they are offering nothing in return. But when you do it right, it works." (end quote)

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Ok, so let's go to how the tithe is Biblically defined.

Tithes in the Old Testament was not money. It was 1/10 of the land, whether of the seed or of the fruit of the tree.

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
(Leviticus 27:30)

And it was the tenth animal of the herd under the rod.

And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
(Leviticus 27:32)

The Levites received the tithe because they had NO land inheritance. The other tribes gave a tenth of the increase of the land and of the herd once every three (3) years.

1The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
(Deuterotomy 18:1-2)


At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
(Deuteronomy 14:28)

**Notice...this is not going into the storehouse...it is at the gate.**

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
(Deuteronomy 26:12)


Come to Beth–el, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:
(Amos 4:4)


If today's tithe preacher wants to preach tithe...then perhaps he ought to receive the true tithe that God sanctioned...food and animals, wine, corn etc. but one thing..he better make sure he is a Levite before he receives the tithe, as the Levites were the only ones scripturally allowed to receive the tithe.

While God did not make tithing a difficult thing for any of the Israelites to give, (a tenth of the increase every three years) today's tithe preacher wants an unscriptural tithe. They want 10% of all you earn plus offerings and they want it every week or as often as you got paid! The Israelites did not live under such a burden. There seems to be more freedom under the law than what today's tithe preachers teach. There is no scriptural basis for a money tithe either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Todays tithe preacher also owns land and very little (in most cases) of the tithe goes to the stranger, the oppressed, the widow. As one person here put it...it goes to pay for a big church, paved parking lots, utilities etc. Perhaps it goes to a vacation house on a lake, as some preachers in my region own. Or maybe it goes to two brand new SUVs for both him and his wife, while the church members drive old cars.

Now if one wants to delve deeper as to why the people are pushed to "tithe", check out to see if your church is considered to be a 501 (c) (3) Corporation.
If you have financial business meetings every year, then most likely your church is considered a corporation. Hmmmmm....is this what Jesus has in mind when He comes for His bride?

While you are at it, look up the origins of the Federal Reserve to gain a better understanding of what our money is. It is a Federal Reserve Note. It is legal tender but, it is not silver or gold, which is Constitutionally lawful money. Don't believe me? Try paying your traffic fines or taxes with gold or silver. They won't take it. You have to convert any gold or silver into Federal Reserve Notes.

Preachers all the time push tithes using their strongest (fear) doctrine Malachi Chapter 3. This is one of the most misunderstood scriptures of all time. And it is used to deceive people.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

Every tithing message I've ever heard (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, OP, AoG) all go the same way with a little mixing it up... but here are the basic components.

From Acts 5 (the scary part) where Ananias and Sapphira we struck dead for withholding money from the sale of property. Obviously it is not happening today if there are as many people withholding all they have from God as it seems and staying alive just fine... but boy is the idea of sudden death powerful scary!

From Malachi 3 (where we are taught how we are cursed for robbing God of the Tithe). Israel was told to bring all the tithes into the storehouse. This was seed, produce, meat and all other agricultural products produced on the land. Not money. Check it our for yourself. I happen to be a farmer but just exactly how happy do you think my pastor would be to see me bring him seed and crops from my harvest, or a side of beef? Well maybe even happy enough but her would still EXPECT my check in the plate on Sunday.

From Genesis 14 (Where we learn that it's TEN percent of the gross) Melchizedek is given 10% of Abram's spoils from war. This is the only time in Abrams 175 years that he ever gave 10% and it was not from his regular income but from things taken in war.

And that is pretty much the song and dance... only none of those scriptures are about my giving 10% of my gross income to the church now and to say they are is to stretch the truth into a lie. I am not saying that every preacher is a liar. Many, having been raised in church, grew up hearing these messages and believed them. They had faithful parents who taught them and they believe that they have seen blessings because of this act of 'tithing' and if God honors the intent of the heart maybe they have indeed. But it does not make it 'truth' any more than that a man can only serve God with a clean shaven face. or any of the other things the church tries to stretch scripture to say.

Tithing in the Christian church was not instituted until there was a paid CLERGY, buildings, and yes...parking lots! From what we can tell about 800 years after Christs death. Until then itinerant preachers were paid with love offerings. Those who were elders in the local church WORKED and supported themselves. Money was collected for the poor, widows and orphans. Now a single mother is more likely to have to get food stamps than to get any help from her church.

Tithing is also the biggest part of what now causes the huge divide between clergy and laity. If someone is being paid to be a 'professional' Christian then we expect them to be doing the Christian work the same way I expect my farm caretaker to feed my animals, mow my grass, and clean the barns. If I pay him every week, why would I shovel manure? In the same way most Christians are no longer willing to get their hands dirty working for God. And sadly many preachers do not want to get their hands dirty working for God either.

No one can sell God by demanding money for serving him, it just aint bible.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

I agree that it's a vital Q, but meant that even your "Super-bowl" church can say that they are following their interpretation? "Condoning anything that works" has to be viewed as subjective, yes? And will be known by its fruit. This speaks to me that I am not to use my judgement in evaluating a belief different from mine (I would largely agree with you), but to discern their fruit.

"...Now see thats been terribly distorted by the TV preachers, and the prosperity gospel guys. They've turned that into nothing but just a way to rip people off and get money from people when they are offering nothing in return. But when you do it right, it works..."

This quote points to this, IMO. If you offer nothing in return, your orchard is gonna be pretty obviously bare, to someone with discernment, who understands that you might live in a mansion, have a chauffeur, eat caviar for breakfast, and still be blind and naked, yes?

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

False prophets that want a mega-church.

Re: The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel
 

:santathumb