Visited a non UPC church
 

We visited our first non UPC church yesterday. It's a Sabbath keeping church with service at 4 pm on Saturday, that was kinda nice. It was really far and we had to fight traffic and got there 30 mins late. The music was still going and I think it was the Lord that we got behind a wreck because I would have had a headache for days if we'd been there for all the music which was a little driving for my taste. Getting used to seeing women in pants in church was weird. Nobody really had short hair but it was scissor cut. It turned out to actually be a youth service, hence the awful music lol. We stayed anyway and it really blessed us. Even my husband who is much more dyed in the wool Apostolic then me said he enjoyed the service. They were very sincere, the bible was the main focus of preaching that while lively was not nutso... No slobbering, sweating, screaming or panting. Before the alter service those seeking prayer asked for it in the simplest terms i.e. 'for my job situation, for my marriage, for a sin I am struggling with, etc.' One kid said 'I'd like to know Jesus'. Then they came down front to be prayed with. Everyone was able to come pray with those needing prayer but no one was mobbed, shaken or had their ear screamed in. During the altar call at the end of service they took the volume of the music down to almost inaudible so that people could pray and actually hear each other, I liked that part a lot. Although the holy spirit was talked about and tongues are accepted as a gift (per their doctrinal statement) there was not a huge focus on getting those praying to speak in tongues.

The people were very friendly after service and we got to visit some before leaving to come home. There is another church of the same denomination nearer to us but we did not want to go somewhere close to home at first because we don't want to fill out visitor cards or have someone want to follow up or any of that yet, we're just not ready. But we do feel a little better about it now and may visit the closer church next week. Please be in prayer for us. Thanks.

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Interesting... Our church has a UPC pastor, but at any given service there are lots of women in jeans/pants and cut hair so that in itself would not be weird... Though they aren't leading service etc.

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Can you explain please... are you saying that they are members in good standing and have cut hair and pants or are they just visitors who haven't 'learned' the right ways yet? Does your church have platform requirements? Ours were mid calf no slit skirts, hose, black and white preferred although colors were allowed in the choir the praise team pretty much always stuck to the rules. Suits strongly preferred for men. Seeing a woman in jeans on the platform was very... different.

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Dordrecht do you go to a UPC church? I think they all pretty much preach that. So since the very early 1900's per their doctrine.

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I am probably wrong, but I thought that if one becomes a member of a UPC church, they must follow the articles of faith?

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Used to go to one. I donated the church a couple of boxes with office supplies, paper, color cartridges, staples, pens, the usual stuff they use in the office. Also two boxes photocopie paper, etc. He said he would rather have the money.:foottap (We were also giving money btw.) After that incident we left for another pentecostal church, not an UPC.:kittyhug

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Sorry Dordrect, I was referring to T2W's post below.

Re: Visited a non UPC church
 

No, I don't know that they are "members" at all though it's noteworthy that many churches consider anyone who attends regularly voting members if they also make regular financial contributions. This was the case at a couple churches I have attended in the past. We have a more formal membership application though I am not sure how closely it's followed.

Some of the ones I mention are visitors but some are not. If I were guessing perhaps 25% of the ladies in any given service have cut hair, or wear (non-typical upc) jewelry or wear bifurcated garments. :) Having said that, it is not endorsed and they would typically not have a leading/teaching role. There are some platform requirements.

You had not originally mentioned that they were on the platform.

"Getting used to seeing women in pants in church was weird. Nobody really had short hair but it was scissor cut."

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This is not true. Women wearing pants/slacks is not mentioned in the UPC Articles of Faith. The "standards" as preached by most today was not really codified until perhaps the 1960s or 70s. Those who are generational Pentecostal will know that bangs on girls and jewelry on ladies was common even in the families of the leaders until this last adult generation.

...and the UPC was not even in existence for nearly a half century after the 1900s...

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Not exactly. Though the case might be better made for the churches who happen to be "affiliated". Ours is not.

...and oh, are you not aware that women wearing pants/slacks is not mentioned in the UPC AOF?

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I think it depends on what part of the country you were from. My great-grandfather was an AOG preacher around 1900 in North Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana and these standards were "codified" back then, even in the AOG.
My grandfather preached his first sermon in the 1920's, (I have the date, but can't remember it off the top of my head), and the topic was "bobbed hair".

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Great points!!

My mother wore a wedding band until 1972 or so when the popular teaching began at that time against jewelry of any kind, including wedding bands. She had to put her ring in the offering plate. That was a toughie for her.

I wonder what would've happened if the "rapture" had taken place before that offering plate was passed.... LOL!

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1900s and 1920s I could see this being the norm for many denominations - since cut hair was just gaining acceptance in society at large.

However, by the time the UPC came into existence in the mid century it was acceptable to trim hair and wear necklaces etc.

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LOL!

Today, I don't think there are very many against wearing a wedding ring in the UPC.

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What a history lesson... You guys are so knowledgeable. I guess I just believed my pastor when he said that decent women had never cut their hair, wore makeup or jewelry... only the hussies. Actually he told a story that make up was originally introduced to polite society by drag queens who were trying to drag women into wickedness... Any truth to that?

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No, that is true. But... my mother still does not wear a wedding band...

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Sorry, I believe you - did not mean to say there is no one like that. Just that the churches that teach against members wearing wedding rings are few and far between - I certainly don't know any, though I do know a few ministers who do not wear them.

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The pastor at our old church told my friend and horseback riding buddy that she would never get the holy ghost as long as she wore her ring.... and then she did, ring and all... I'm glad he didn't say it over the pulpit or it would have really been a mess... But he did tell the story about how he could not even raise his hand to pray with his own ring on and had to take it off before God would save him. She still wouldn't take hers off and eventually left the church over it. I used to take my wedding ring out at night and sleep in it... then back in the box in the morning... guess my rebellion started early on.

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Hoovie, I'm sorry. I didn't make my point clear. I meant to say, Yes, it is true that many today don't believe wedding rings are an issue.

Wanted to clear that up.

But even in light of the fact that many don't perceive it as an issue any longer, my mother still will never put one back on. Because of the sacrifice she made many years ago, I guess.

But it was just my way of saying... how times change things! Forty years ago - skirts above the knees on all my OP female family members, and others too, as well as wedding rings, some bangs, and the list goes on... and now ... today those very things are hell-fire issues.

Wonder what the issues will be in another forty years? LOL!

Maybe facebook, twitter, and the internet will be the great mortal sins LOL!

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Suppose that is similar to the "crawl around the church" routine... :begging

My view is that you can/will never be good enough for Jesus. Once you do recieve him He will change the heart from within.

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LOL! :heeheehee You were doomed way back then...

But ... aren't you glad you've "seen the light!"

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Yah, she's telling the truth... probably leaving out some great details too!

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It was an itinerant preacher who had the seeker crawl all over... If he wanted the HG... the guy had been 'seeking' a long time... some speculated that this was to break his pride... he seemed a nice guy, not really prideful. Super sweet wife. I am not the only one who was freaked out... even the associate pastor told my husband that it 'wasn't right' which is really strong language from him.

I have left out some details because they are just not fit for polite company. The pastor of 'the weak church' where we have been most recently allows rings although he and his wife (and most of the church) do not wear them... He said recently that he'd rather have women wearing wedding rings than all the adultery that goes on in the 'big church'... and that is the part I'm not telling. :(

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:popcorn2

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What church is this? Sounds like a UC church. Im glad my church is not like that

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I know of many ministers who do not approve of the wedding ring, or any other jewelry including the broach or lapel pin. They are just as plentiful as preachers who preach against splits, low necklines, high hemlines, and non-existant sleeves.

My father was raised with rings being excepted (it is one of those things that some do and some do not). I do know that I have seen pictures of Oneness Pentecostal ladies from the 20s-present that did not cut their hair, wear pants, shunned jewelry, etc. It is a simple fact that most had no problems with the holiness standard, dispite what some authors have wished to claim over the years.

I was raised in Pentecost, and my mother has a picture of my great-great-great grandmother with uncut hair, and wearing a long dress. She died in the 1960s. As far as I know, she never once cut her hair, wore make-up, jewelry, pants, or any of that other stuff people like to endorse today.

Oh, she was not UPCI either. She belonged to the AOG as I recall.

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before the 1900's it was a cultural standard for women to have long hair and wear dresses.

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Interesting. So you know of current UPC pastors that require "no rings" for membership? I know there are some independent UCs and WPF...

In the 1920s many would have had uncut hair in all denominations I think.

I think the point I was making is that by the time the UPC came into existence the national leaders often accepted cutting hair for their own girls and wearing jewlery by their wives - and there are photos that show it... not saying that many did not. But it does show a tolerance that is mostly absent today in that same regard.

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It was known that in some circles leaders were able to get away with it, but to say that it was an era of tolerance concerning it would be incorrect. Bro. Westburg, Bro. Terry, Bro. Bean, Bro. Ballestero, the Davis family, Bro. A.D. Urshan, Bro. Price, Bro. Clyde Haney, to name just a very few of the better known names held to a high standard. The fact is that many of these men left the organization (I can name many more of their spiritual heirs that have also left in more recent days). This contributed to the loosening of the standards.

The fact that there were churches such as Laurel, where worldiness was permitted actually proves nothing. Laurel was founded with strong holiness standards, but over the course of time pastors who were loose took it away from its roots. One of these men was elected as the District Secretary or Treasurer. It was tolerated in Mississippi simply because no one could do anything about it until the pastor left.

I could name other examples, however it is not necessary. That vaunted 'age of tolerance' did not tolerate worldly apparel on men or women.

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" And some shall depart from the faith" some watch prophecy being fulfilled and others fulfil prophecy.

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My suggestion would be to have no confidence in man, but only in Christ.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
(Psalms 118:8)

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Brother Epley, what is your interpretation of "departing from the faith"?

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I think you probably already know the answer from most of his other posts... :heeheehee

But twill always be interesting to hear his comment once again :)

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Yes!! That is the basis to all questions of what goes on in the ministry - no confidence in man, at all, but only in Christ.

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You have to ask? :laffatu

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It will be nice to read it again because I have another question for Brother Epley. You know, I like Brother Epley. He is an interesting fellow. I like to try to understand what makes people like him tick.

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Sort of like Jody Foster trying to understand Anthony Hopkins character in Silence of the Lambs.