Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1135686)

No one has ever made the case for me that Gentile Christians must keep Sabbath. I see no need to unless they do.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No one has ever made the case for me that Gentile Christians must keep Sabbath. I see no need to unless they do.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1135686)

No one has ever made the case for me that Gentile Christians must keep Sabbath. I see no need to unless they do.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135717)

There are still 10 commandments, not nine commandments and a suggestion. The commandments are eternal and belong to all of God's people... How do you answer that MTD?

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1135724)

The 10 commandments were written by God engraven in stone. Paul said they (10 commandments were DONE AWAY with). Only the 10 commandments were written in stone. So let's see what Paul says about it:

2 Cor 3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Paul tells us that the 10 commandments (which were engraven in stone) was glorious, yet it was DONE AWAY with.


Col 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1135740)

Yes what he said. Also I know of no place where Paul lists the various sins and mentions "sabbathbreaking".

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135774)

Spoken from the mouth of Jesus Christ regarding the destruction of the temple in 70 AD

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

This passage clearly shows that Jesus EXPECTED that those who lived 70 years after his death would still be observing the Sabbath.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1135777)

That really has no bearing on if sabbath still for today. He was speaking of them escaping Jerusalem which would be harder on sabbath just like it would in winter.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1135686)

No one has ever made the case for me that Gentile Christians must keep Sabbath. I see no need to unless they do.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135784)

And WHY do you suppose it would be harder? I suspect because they would be observing the Sabbath :) which was my point. If Jesus expected believers to be observing the Sabbath 70 years after his death exactly when do you propose that he expected them to stop.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1135791)

Because the city would have been on lock down so to speak. Doesn't support christians honor sabbath.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135789)

I just have to ask MTD... why would you need proof that humans need a day of rest and worship? As once said by a famous person... "does not even nature teach it is so?" Even our human employers do not make us work 7 days a week recognizing our need for rest and renewal. There are many commandments that are sometimes tough to keep... why not take advantage of the one that is never hard to do :)

Originally Posted by Jay (Post 1135809)

Could you please speak to my superiors as they do not seem to believe that I need 8 hours of sleep, much less one day of rest. I know that is not a nice thing to say, however it is the total truth.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135811)

Jay you know if I could I would :)

Originally Posted by Jay (Post 1135812)

I know. I work until I hit my 40, then I use my own discretion as to how much availabililty that I have. Unfortunately, Sunday occurs in the middle of my week, so I have no possible way of reaching 40 before Sunday. I told my bosses when I hired on that Sunday nights were off limits with very rare exceptions, and that I was to have either Sunday morning or Wednesday night off. They give them to me, however, I have had to go both to church and work with a shortage of sleep because of the way that my hours were scheduled. They once questioned me about it in such a way that I understood that they did not understand my dedication to church.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

The 10 commandments were written by God engraven in stone. Paul said they (10 commandments were DONE AWAY with). Only the 10 commandments were written in stone. So let's see what Paul says about it:

2 Cor 3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Paul tells us that the 10 commandments (which were engraven in stone) was glorious, yet it was DONE AWAY with.

Col 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

The 10 commandments were written by God engraven in stone. Paul said they (10 commandments were DONE AWAY with). Only the 10 commandments were written in stone. So let's see what Paul says about it:

2 Cor 3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Paul tells us that the 10 commandments (which were engraven in stone) was glorious, yet it was DONE AWAY with.

Col 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes what he said. Also I know of no place where Paul lists the various sins and mentions "sabbathbreaking".

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I am a very simple person. The answers you give seem very convoluted. I believe that Paul himself as a Jew honored the Sabbath as did all the early Christian church until the time of Constantine. As Baptists we were not only told that we should judge no man (and we don't) we were told that it was divinely ordained that the day or rest and worship was moved to Sunday. As a matter of fact for decades (until the 1980's) we were asked to vote to maintain 'Blue Laws' that forbid anyone to shop or restaurants to open on Sunday because it was the 'Christian Sabbath'. Of course once those laws failed there was no church that continued to ask members to avoid shopping or eating out which are now the very things that 90% of people who leave church are going to do on the way home.

Below is an example of how it was explained... your explanation makes my baloney-meter go off at the same frequency that this one did. It's a commandment, period. If I take a law book and transcribe it to a floppy disk that does not change the law so the law being written on our hearts verses on tablets of stone does not do away with it still being the law and not judging someone else for not keeping the law also does not make it any less the law. Not judging is repeated over and over in the bible and is a common theme and the fact that you heap judgement on yourself for judging another persons walk with God... But most of us still keep those laws anyway to the best of our ability and sadly most everybody still judges others even when they know they shouldn't. Most here if they saw someone from church swigging down a few beers at the local restaurant would judge them although judging not for meat or drink is included in this scriptures you gave as an example. I think that Paul meant that worshiping other days or every day was just fine.. But the Sabbath was and is the Sabbath and if it was not explicitly changed in the new testament then it was not changed anymore than any other commandment. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

Here is the old Baptist explanation: (this guy obviously did not own a spell checker, lol!)

We believe that the change in day for the sabbath to Sunday was Divinely Authorized. When Jesus declared that “the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath,� He wanted them to understand that He had the power to change the day on which the holy rest should be obversed and the way it which it should be observed. Scriptures clearly indicate that the Sabbath was celebrated on different days.
1. Orginally, as seen in Genesis 2:3, the Sabbath was to be observed after the six days of work by God. Here, in the institution of the Sabbath, it is distinclty declared to be a day of Holy rest after 6 days of labor, and it was to be a memorial of creation.
2. The next mention of the Sabbath is in connection with the gving of the manna (Ex 16:14-31). Here the manna is stated to have fallen for 6 days, that is from the 16th to the 21st day of the second month; and that the day following, or the twenty-second, was the frirst 7th day Sabbath celebrated in the Wilderness of Sin. “See for the Lord has given you the sabbath, so He has given you on the 6th day the bread of life for 2 days. So the people rested on the 7th day.� The Sabbath as a holy rest was re-established at this time. There is controversy over what day was actually observed. If the 22 day was a Sabbath day, then the 15th should have been also, but it was not because they marched that day. Dr. W. H. Rogers holds that “the only change of the Sabbath by God's authority is for the Jeews between the giving of the manna and the resurrrection of Christ. The first day of the week, but always the 7th after 6 working days was the day of the holy rest from Adam to Moses. The Sabbatism was separated from idolatry by changing it from Sunday to Saturday among the chosen people ‘throughout their generations,' 1500 years (Ex 31:13-14; Ezek. 20:12). At Christ's resurrrection expired by statue limitation this peculiarity of excpetional change, leaving the divine rule for all mankind, requiring 1st day Sabbath keeping, as had been the case for the 1st 2500 years of human history.�
3. The Christian Sabbath or “Lord's Day� has been tradition since apostolic times. It came early to be known as the “Lord's Day� to distinguish it from the Jewish Sabbath. That this change was divienly authorized is show (1) by the example of Jesus, (2) by the authority of the apostles, (3) by the practices of the early church, and (4) by the testimony of the early apostolic fathers.
1. Jesus placed approval upon the 1st day of the week, by meeting with His disciples on this day. The resurrection took place on the morning of the 1st day of the week. The four accounts of the gosples agree that the Saviour arose early “the first day of the week.� His first meeting with the body of His diciples was on the evening of the resurrection day (John 20:19); and the second on the eveing of the 8th day, which would of course, be the foolowing first day of the next week. There were 3 more “first days� before the ascension, but it is not said whetehr Jesus met with His disciples on any or all of them. However, there were 3 more appearances: to the 500, to James, and to the apostles (1 Cor.15:1-4).
2. The Apolstles authorized the change, doubtless due to the unrecorded instrutions of Jesus during the 40 days (Acts 1:2). Thwenty five years later St. Paul worshiped, shared communion, and preached at Troas on Sunday (1 Cor 16:1-2). This clearly indicates that the apostle sanctioned the 1st day as the Christian Sabbath.
3. The practices of the early churches are further proof of wirship on Sunday. This is shown by the passages just cited, and also by St. John's reference to the Sabbath as the “Lord's day� (Rev 1:10). Since he uses the prhase without any refrecne to the first day, it is eveindece that when the Apocalypse was written, the 1st day was gnerally know as the “Lord's Day� in contradiction to the Jewish 7th day.
4. Since some of the early apostolic fathers were associated with the apostles, their writings from the historical standpoint, furnish conclusive eveicnec as to the current thgouht of that time. For example, Ignatius, plycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Theodoret, Eusebius, Origen, the Didache or Teaches of the Twelve all mention the sabbath observence being on the Lord's Day.

Putting all of this aside, I believe that God is more worried about the heart of the worshipper than the day of the worship. At my church, we worship on Sunday , Saturday, and Wednesday. Since God “lives in the praises of His people,� does it really matter what day we observe the Sabbath. If we become to legalistic and think that only Sunday or any day of the week is the only day to observe the Sabbath, then we are no better than the Pharasees who condemned Jesus for working on the Sabbath.

Originally Posted by Jay

These are the verses that I cite for why I am not especially concerned with keeping the Sabbath as such. I have friend who keeps Sunday very strictly as the day of rest. We have agreed that neither of us shall despise the other for our own position.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Originally Posted by Jay (Post 1135837)

The Sabbath was a Jewish cultural observance mandated by God. Paul never instructs the Gentiles into the exactitude that was required of the Jewish people. That is why he mentions it the way that he does in any number of places. The reason that he continued to follow the Jewish tradition was because he was Jewish.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1135789)

I just have to ask MTD... why would you need proof that humans need a day of rest and worship? As once said by a famous person... "does not even nature teach it is so?" Even our human employers do not make us work 7 days a week recognizing our need for rest and renewal. There are many commandments that are sometimes tough to keep... why not take advantage of the one that is never hard to do :)

Originally Posted by Jay

The Sabbath was a Jewish cultural observance mandated by God. Paul never instructs the Gentiles into the exactitude that was required of the Jewish people. That is why he mentions it the way that he does in any number of places. The reason that he continued to follow the Jewish tradition was because he was Jewish.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

We do need time off. Most employers at least IN THEORY give two days off. As far as a DAY of worship? That I dont get. I worship Yeshua every day. We are to ABIDE IN CHRIST?

As far as not being hard to do I would say IF we were to COMMANDED to keep it that it would be THE HARDEST.

Since 1978 I have not had a job where I could chose to work or not work weekends. They would never hire people who told them they would not work weekends. Where I work now we work rotating days off. I get one weekend off per month.

By the way some in this thread have a very different version of the Sabbath. Friends the Sabbath Yeshua kept was SATURDAY. The seventh day of the week. Scripture knows NOTHING about the Sabbath being on Sunday.

If in fact we were under the Sabbath/Saturday law one would go to Hell if he did not obey. Most hard core Law Keepers teach this. The SDA says to go to Church on Sunday is the mark of the beast.

Originally Posted by Jay (Post 1135841)

Only in part. Paul was actually content with his heritage, and even referenced in the epistles to the Gentiles, especially when he tells them that they are not under any portion of the law.

I do agree that men ought to have a day of rest, but even Jesus said that the Sabbath was ordained for man and not the other way around. Thus I do not view that the Sabbath according to Scripture was ever meant to remain as a permanent ordinance especially for the Gentile church. This is especially true concerning the strict adherence that many who believe this place upon it.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1135852)

We do need time off. Most employers at least IN THEORY give two days off. As far as a DAY of worship? That I dont get. I worship Yeshua every day. We are to ABIDE IN CHRIST?

As far as not being hard to do I would say IF we were to COMMANDED to keep it that it would be THE HARDEST.

Since 1978 I have not had a job where I could chose to work or not work weekends. They would never hire people who told them they would not work weekends. Where I work now we work rotating days off. I get one weekend off per month.

By the way some in this thread have a very different version of the Sabbath. Friends the Sabbath Yeshua kept was SATURDAY. The seventh day of the week. Scripture knows NOTHING about the Sabbath being on Sunday.

If in fact we were under the Sabbath/Saturday law one would go to Hell if he did not obey. Most hard core Law Keepers teach this. The SDA says to go to Church on Sunday is the mark of the beast.