"Witnessing"
 

This Christianese word is kind of the opposite in meaning of the English word that's spelled the same. ;) In English, to witness is to see or observe something. In Christianese, to witness is to tell people what you believe, in an effort to convince them to believe the same things and/or to join your religion. (AKA to "get saved". ;))

I said these words are kind of opposite. Christian witnessing isn't talking about what you have seen (usually). You haven't seen Jesus after He rose from the dead, for example. You believe He has risen, because you believe written reports. Unlike the disciples (not just Thomas), you are expected to believe without seeing. Or, at least, you will be blessed if you do. (So it says.) None of them believed, until they actually witnessed (English!) Him living again. Even the women didn't believe until they saw Him. (That's what it says. You could look it up. :winkgrin)

Anyway, yeah, it's kind of funny how you guys use some words that look like they're English words, but aren't. :heeheehee

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Perhaps we are to "witness" what Christ has done for us through prayer rather than to try to "convince" people to join any religious group.

Becoming part of the "church" is from above, not joining a membership here on earth.

When one joins a religious group here on earth, they are joining a club with membership of rules and earthly financial business meetings. "Dues" are paid to the head of the membership.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Cool.

Most here believe you have to do something to become part of the church, even if that something is nothing more than believing, or having faith.

Being part of the church, in the sense that it is (as you might say) the one true church, established by Jesus, is what I was referring to. And that is a religion, in English. ;)

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Christ did not come to establish Christianity, but to slice up religion with a sword. It is a crime that Christians do not have the slightest idea of what to do after repentance, and grope at "witnessing," which you rightly divide, or maybe "prayer."

Another popular choice is "Repent again." Then there's "Codify everyone else's behavior," a perennial favorite, which usually comes right before "Accuse people of breaking the code." This is inevitably followed by "Pontificate on our misunderstanding," and "Execute those who disagree."

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Jesus the Messiah showed us the difference between being a part of a "church" on earth and being part of His Kingdom in Heaven.

The definition of religion by man and by the Bible are two different definitions.

By man:

re·li·gion   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.


Biblically:

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

(James 1:27)


It doesn't say to categorize or theologically divide what is in the bible, come up with a set of beliefs, then join like-minded people together in an assembly and exclude all others if they do not agree to every jot and tittle in any affirmation clauses.

But then you will find some people debating the meaning of James 1:27 all the day long instead of doing what it says.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Love it!

I have to say that when you belong to a religious system that believes that each person who is not 'reached' (read: converted to your belief system) will burn in an eternal tormenting hell... well... that is pretty dang motivating... or it should be... I have often said the if Christians actually believed what they say they do that they would have knees bloody from praying and would never get a decent nights sleep. Instead we often find them poking fun at the 'lost' or pronouncing hell over people with glee. Which for me has always been the proof positive that they really do NOT believe it at all.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

But it does say you have to believe (certain things). And if you don't, you are condemned. Just sayin'.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

:thumbsup Yes, it's very clear to me that most Christians don't really believe much of what they say they believe.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Ah, the accuser speaks. Got any word,for us (other than "no," I mean) for

"THE DAY OF A MAN'S DEATH IS BETTER..."

? (or are you just going to keep verifying "Resist the devil, and he will flee?")

Re: "Witnessing"
 

On another thread, I said if it means what you say it means, it's wrong. Even in your world, when an unbeliever dies, there is no possible way that day could be considered better than the day he was born. OK, let me back off from that just a bit. It could be considered 'better' in the sense that it begins that man's horrible eternal punishment (not sure you believe that, exactly, but most here do), which is just, and therefore good. In your (most AFFers') view, at least. And it could be said that the day of his birth, since he was an unbeliever, was not good. (Again, in your view.)

Oh, and I'm not a devil.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Oh, my bad, that wasn't this thread?
Ok, and ya, you'll have to leave all that unsupported religious yack, there in the middle; the day of a man's death can not be considered better than the day of his birth if he would not agree with you, and was in torment. Amen. Therefore, you are only left to work out any religious dichotomy that traditions of men has brought you, and trust the verse of Scripture on its face until you do.

We all assume the role of satan whenever our pointy finger comes out, me included, which is just the way it is, in our current state, anyway.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Many of us live with an incredible amount of sadness, hurt, pain, and suffering. I don't think healing will ever come in lashing out at others.

If we are on a battlefield in this life, and that is how I see life more and more, as a battlefield. We are here together, to help each other get through it.

If there is a God, then we need him to help us fight and overcome the things that war against our souls, minds, and bodies.

If there isn't a God, then we still need to carry each other through the heartache and pain.

I believe there is a God. He met me this morning in prayer and brought joy to my soul in the midst of my sorrow.

Timmy I'm hurting for you, but I also feel hurt by you in this thread.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Uh, no, I do not have to accept that verse on its face value, or in any other way. You may feel obligated, but I don't. To each his own.

And no, we do not all assume the role of satan. Ever. What in the world are you talking about?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

I'm not hurting much, now! That was back when I tried to believe what I was told I had to believer. I'm free of that, now. It helped immensely. Not that I recommend it for you or anyone else, necessarily. If believing works for you, that's great. If there are some that are not getting peace as advertised, IMO they should try something else. Yes, I know, some might think it is evil of me to suggest such a thing. I don't care! :lol

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Or there may be another answer. I have found that in any arguement both sides tend to stand on the idea that if you don't believe A you must believe B and vice versa... When in actuality there is a whole alphabet :)

My choice is to find peace in a God that I can love and respect. Not because if I don't he will fry me like a potato chip but because he is good and has my very best interests at heart at all times. Call it whatever you want that is the part I don't care about... I'll try to help you understand it but if you don't see it my way I have to just assume that you are where God wants you to be and that's just OK because I am not God and glad of it :)

You are right Timmy, peace can come in many packages. Just be sure that you have not had something that you wanted to keep stolen from you by those that made it conditional or impossible.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

:highfive

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Ah; well, reality is not too concerned with our perceptions, whatever they may be. And the second is self evident.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Reality is closer aligned to our perceptions than to our dogmatically held beliefs, as handed down and proclaimed "true".

The second? About us taking on the role of satan? Your point is self-evident? No. It's not. It's an assertion, with no evidence given. I think I know what "evidence" you may offer, but that is also nothing but assertion. But, I'm willing to be corrected.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

I misread this, the first time, I'm sorry.

How are you hurt by me in this thread?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

If one does not witness for Christ he will be lost. Jesus said if anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this sinful and adulterous generation the son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of the Father with his holy angels.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Amen. It now only remains for oneself to define "witness," which many would have you believe might be asking strangers if they know the Lord?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

What exactly is witnessing to you? I'm asking 'you' but I am really asking anyone who wants to answer. Is it being that guy who invited every single person they run into throughout the week to church? Is it indeed simply 'inviting people to church'? That what I grew up thinking it was and since I do not have the type of bold personality befitting a top sales person for AMWAY I always stunk at it, and thus assumed to be on the razors edge of being hell bound.

Is merely supporting those who routinely invite people to church good enough in the case of someone who does not have that loud, old "go get em!" demeanor?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Well, they can be, amen. You have been advised that there will be a counterfeit, and you have seen it.

I'd just as soon not go down this road too far; it ends up being a semantics discussion. In the end we either emulate satan or Christ, in our next decision, would you agree there?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

We are to witness concerning Jesus Christ. I have never just invited someone to go to Church.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Not sure what you mean. To clarify what I meant: our perceptions usually are more reliable in determining what really is real than some beliefs we formed by decree. Believe that "x" is true, because you have to. Or else!

No.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Well, it's one thing to provoke others to examine their belief system. I think we all do that with one another. I think we can do that with respect for one another’s viewpoints also.

It could be just me; I'm a bit sensitive as you know.

But it seems to me that the "Friends" part of "AFF" is disintegrating to the point that we are not accomplishing anything in the way of friendship, edification, enlightening each other, ect.

I feel like you don't respect those of us who profess to be Christians, and realizing this dissapoints me.

Maybe my time here is just coming to and end and for some reason I'm having a hard time letting go of it.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Well, Amanah, I would hate to see you leave. You are a great witness!Ya, is this "witnessing?" Or is it possible that, omg, the people I learned witnessing from just got it from the Jehovah's Witnesses? Is it possible that witnessing has nothing to do with getting people into the local church?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

If you wouldn't mind, could you point out some specific things in this thread that offended you? I realize some of my posts lately have been a bit more blunt than usual, and I apologize for that.

I know what you mean about letting go. I tried to leave AFF once or twice before, but couldn't help but come back, after a while. :lol

Re: "Witnessing"
 

I'll start. For me my 'witness' is my life not words. I try to live in a way that is real to those around me in the workplace, in my farm business and in my community. The life of one who goes the distance and more even when others give up, who loves others even those who are often considered unloveable. And I want it to be known that the reason for this is God in me and not me personally.

When one does this even marginally it brings questions from those around. I am considered 'different' on my job. Not untouchable or stuck up but also not someone who can be sucked in to whatever discontent is going on in the moment. When those I am close to here (and that is all 50 other employees)have a problem they will often come into my office, close the door and ask for help of some kind or for prayer. These moments are an opertunity to share WHO is really our help and how to reach Him. Of course my POV about details is not important in those moments... simply getting them in touch with the God of the universe is :) And to me THAT is being a witness.

I am but one small person but there are many of me and we grow others like us every day.... and God smiles.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

BTW, I can't recall any recent lashing out, other than in reaction to some things like being called "satan", and being told, basically, that my brother dying was a good thing. But maybe I have blinders on? Have I lashed out at anyone else?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

[QUOTE=AreYouReady?;1135899]Jesus the Messiah showed us the difference between being a part of a "church" on earth and being part of His Kingdom in Heaven.

The definition of religion by man and by the Bible are two different definitions.

By man:

re·li·gion   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.


Biblically:

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

(James 1:27)






IF you are going by man's definition...yes..

But if you go by Biblical definition...No...because if one has pure religion, then they would be taking action upon scriptures, not just talking at someone.

If you do what the passage says, you are fulfilling what Christ would have us to do.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

In particular, I don't think anyone here would argue with the opening post. Would they?

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Amanah,

I first came here in... ummm 2008 I think and had a look around.. This place seemed very harsh then and I backed away without a single post. Had another look in about once a year and found it the same... When I realy decided to ditch my OP church I made a commitment to try to establish community here so as to not be completely out of touch with my apostolic identity... But I still find very little in the way of 'friendship' here. Mostly anything a person says is not lovingly supported but is picked to pieces. Right now that is good for me, at some point in time in the future (probably when I am again connected to a group of Christians IRL) I do not think my spirit will abide AFF.

I just wanted to say that I see your perception as real and not just over sensitive imaginings. :dogpat

Re: "Witnessing"
 

This is pretty much how I have come to define witnessing during the past decade. However it took a while because the concept of "Soul Winning" where everyone talked about how "I won this person" or "that person" or "the other person" to Jesus. In many cases I couldn't help but think that God looked at THOSE bed posts notches in the same way he looked at mine -In fact He probably looks at that sort of boasting WORSE then he looked at my "bragging". Wing wink nudge nudge say more.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Ha, yup. T2W and Amanah, I would pray that you become immune to offense at what are, after all, a seeker's posts--where else should they go for truth?--and see that maybe you are here for your posts now, at least as much as others.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

A lady stood and "testified" one Sunday about how she "won" someone to the Lord, and she actually made the "score one for me" gesture in the air!

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Lol; and yet we were all "recruited" the same way, hmm...

Re: "Witnessing"
 

Sometimes we are so ridiculous.. That one had to make God chuckle.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

If you guys go, who will there be for me to talk to (I know of a few others, but you know what I am saying)? :D I would miss you gals very much. You have provided stimulating discussion, even if we disagree on a number of issues. However, you have never been harsh, and I have appreciated our stimulating discourses.




My family has always had a different view of 'soul winning'. My dad/pastor once asked to who a converted soul belonged. It goes something like this:

A person prays for the lost souls in their community, but is not very effective at bringing people to church. A second person excels at convincing people to come, but is not able to pray well with people at the altar. A third person can pray almost anybody through if they are ready, but struggles to teach a home Bible study. A fourth person can ground new people in the faith, but is not gifted in any of the other areas. The preacher preaches the word, but has less contact than any of the others due to his responsibilities. The convert is won, but to whom does the soul belong? The prayer warrior, the witness, the altar worker, the teacher, and the pastor all played a role. The convert must therefore belong to God.

Dad explained this principle to a lady in the church where we were attending because she was feeling condemnation for not being able to bring people to church and see them pray through (the pastor was big on everybody 'winning souls' and had stated that if you did not get people to come to church you would end in Hell). The lady was an excellent altar worker and teacher, but was not gifted in outreach. After this was explained to her, she felt more at ease, and had an easier time because she knew where she fit in the work.

I fear that we have taken too much from the 'Christian world' when it comes to our approach to soul winning. We should all bear in mind the words of Paul to the Corinthians. "Some plant, some water, but it is God who gives the increase."



I find that to be both amusing and sad. She actually was one of many who brought that soul in. She has her reward.


I think that God would have rewarded her in a much better way, but because of her pride she has had her reward. I hope that I never have to face God after having an attitude like that.

Re: "Witnessing"
 

It wasn't that I was offended; I often think you are funny.

I feel bad that you think Christians have no credibility. In other words, you are saying that you don't see anyone who you feel really lives up to being what a Christian should be, or anyone who even actually believes what they say they believe.

So you aren’t able to say that while you don’t agree with what we believe, you respect us for living our beliefs.

This dawned on me while I was reading this post, and to be fair it’s not just you who feels this way, so I should not have pointed you out.

It's made me think long and hard Timmy. I want to live what I say I believe.

Gandhi once told a reporter who was trying to get a story from him as he was leaving on a train "my life is my message." I want to be able to say that also.