Denying the Lord and still Saved?
 

We always talk about the person who, in the face of severe persecution, strongly stands until the end. They don't give into torture, and they hold their tongue while being electrocuted, beaten, or boiled to death.

Then there is the person, who just couldn't hold out. They gave in, as their flesh was being ripped from their body, in pieces. The only relief was to deny the Lord, so they do, and the perpetrators kill the person anyway.

You just have to wonder...does God hold this person accountable for caving under a pressure and torture beyond our wildest dreams.

There is one instance, where a Father is told, “Deny the Lord and we won’t kill your son!” They hold the son in front of this Father, and they begin to torture him. The son’s tears and screaming are too much for this Father, so he denies the Lord to save his son.

Re: Denying the Lord and still Saved?
 

I believe we have to be strong enough in our faith to withstand anything. We can think of the most horrible situation imaginable, and it still doesn't give us an excuse to sin.

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I don't think you can accept or deny Christ with your mouth.

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But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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Is the Father sinning by denying the Lord to save his son?

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I believe yes, and unless he repented before he died, he will answer for it. As cruel as that seems, there is no excuse for sin.

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Religion has made you cruel, so don't be too hard on yourself. Someday, the illusion will pass. I suppose people like Corrie ten Boom are lost for lying.

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:popcorn2

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(Don't answer baited questions...don't answer baited questions...)

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God does not delight in cruelty the way man does. He loves us and he is faithful to forgive us when we fail in any way. I am sure that His mercy which endureth forever will be just as present on the last day of a tortured life as it is any other time.

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Much distorted views of the Creator!!!

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We can make judgments about another facing this situation, but we don't know how we are going to react if it were us facing such treatment. Peter told the Lord:

But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all. (Mark 14:31)

Peter was with the Lord when the Lord said :But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 10:33)

Yet, Peter was forgiven when Christ resurrected from the grave. We have an awesome God who forgives our fears and stumblings. I believe that God looks past our shallow emotions and straight into our hearts.

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You make my point here, which is it is what is in your heart that matters.
One can certainly speak from the heart, and what you say in general will certainly reveal your heart to others, but this doesn't change my belief, and I would say verifiable, that you cannot accept or deny Christ with your mouth, it has to be with your heart. While your quote is true, mouths can lie, hearts cannot.

Notice for every "mouth" up there, there is a "heart," and let me reiterate that whatever noises pass your lips without heart are just that; noises.

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Another thing about this whole...scenario, btw, is that it is completely death centered, imo. We are hedged about with protection by God, I feel it often now; protected from pain, well "hurt" might be a better word, 24/7.

When you are delivered up before antiChrist, which btw is just not prolly going to be like that picture in your head--lol, I got it, too, the "literal fever;" we lay in bed at night, imagining ourselves walking into a like a king's court or something, satan on a throne, surrounded by a court full of cronies, and testifying for God, lol--satan will not be able to harm a hair on your head, ok?

This false image is reinforced by stories we hear of people being tortured in the news.
Please consider how your...eschatology? is formed, in just this manner. And what a complete load of yack it is. It is an image that satan hopes you think about a lot, because that's all he's got is a lie. You have absolutely no Scripture to back up this image that keeps you awake at night, even after you're "saved." Can you say death?

Or, is there some way that this image edifies you?

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I will answer when not connected to irritating machinery.

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Huh?

You really really need to start taking something.

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Be nice. :happydance

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God knows the heart. David feined insanity.

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Abraham lied twice about his wife/sister Sarah. Peter denied the Lord and was given a second chance. Yes, you can speak with your mouth, but the Lord knows your heart.

Unspeakable and unimaginable situations for us, the situation NFS has described. And yet, the days ahead could bring situations such as these things right into our lives. But as BB says, lying awake at night worrying about these things, will do little good either. When the time comes, the Holy Spirit, if dwelling in your life, will give you the strength, and knowledge needed.

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These images of being delivered up for torture to make a stand for Christ, and avoiding coercion to speak something that your heart would not agree with is the imagining of a child. It has no basis in reality. Our common image of being brought into some chamber to testify in front of satan and allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through us, "then," is equally naive. It is called The RevelatioN, and we must understand I AM before we can really even begin to have any relevant doctrinal discussions.

This future scenario casting is a device designed to displace your center in time, and it works great.

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Well, my response to THAT is....

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying. Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun. If the sun don't come, you get a tan. From standing in the English rain. I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.

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Ha, more eggs. Understand why "here a little there a little," then if you would, completely ignoring my last post. Consider why God's nonsense is better than man's sense in this light, nevermind my post. The point being that any Word that gets through to us has to overcome an obstacle. Also, that may have been for someone else. Obviously so, if you entertain no delusions of the sort referenced.
Ps have you seen the lyrics to that "translated?" pretty cool

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I do not believe that a person who denies Christ will not be saved if they do not repent before death. I do believe that a person can repent, but I do believe that they must have time to repent. There are too many examples of people who held out until the end.

When Jesus said that if we loved life more than Him, He did not exclude us from deaths that would include great suffering. This is why He said that His people should have a greater love for Him rather than for our own families. We are to count all as lost for Him and His service. No matter the pain, suffering, sacrifice, or death.

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I sure don't want the last words out of my mouth to be "I deny ____"

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An English class, perhaps?

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Ya, that might help. My English is surely deficient, allow me to apologize.
And, from now on, I'll do my best to only say things you agree with or can easily understand and agree with, too.

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Hey, Jay, could you rephrase the first line? Ty, and is this the reply to the "all people in spiritual bodies after the millenium when satan is released for a short period" answer, or is that another thread? ty. No way to get notifications when one is quoted here, correct?

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I will agree with that. I am reminded of report that I heard from the period of the Inquisition. A young man had been put in a vice that squeezed around his torso, after a time he yielded and denied Christ. They took him out, but it was too late to save his life. A young lady who was not known to be Protestant cried out, "You fool, you fool, just a few more minutes and Heaven would have been yours." At this she was seized and commanded to recant. Upon her refusal, they placed her in that vice, and followed the same procedure. However, she went to her death praising and worshiping.

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My first statement should have read thus: Unless he repents, a man who denies Christ will not be saved.




Bbyrd, I hope that this clarifies that statement. Sadly, I was unable to edit it, although I would if I could.

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That's why if we're going to endure until the end we need to be prayed up NOW and strong in our faith NOW before it gets "really" bad.

Our suffering will be rewarded. It is temporary.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:18

Remember, this was written to a church in a time of great persecution. If you can't fathom being tortured or killed for your faith, you need to spend more time in prayer and fasting, because we never know when the gun will be pointed to our heads.

Remember Columbine?

We need to be prepared, all baiting aside to suffer for Christ's name sake. When Christ said take up your cross, he very well could have meant that literally in some cases. Peter, WAS crucified. Do I want to be tortured for my faith and killed? No. Do I know how it feels? No. Do I absolutely know that in the face of torture I wouldn't deny Christ? No. But I pray to God everyday for the strength to endure. I believe he will perserve those who want to be perserved so the whole "what happens if..." line of questioning is a moot point. God gives to those who ask. Grace is not an excuse for sin. Grace gives us a God-given ability to overcome it.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13

This verse sums it up in it's entirety. God will not ask of us more then we can handle. If he commands us to be true to him in the midst of persecution, that we must, and HE will provide the grace, he will provide the means. My flesh of course fears the idea of ruthless torture, but my spirit knows that my God is faithful, and if he is faithful he'll remain true to his word.

My heart is determined to be saved. My salvation is based on my faith and confession in Christ and my obedience to him and his word. I am therefore to keep my confession by faith and be obedience to him. God will give me grace to do so, I believe it. I don't know how. I lay on my face and cry every night asking God to strengthen this generation, because we are so weak and comfortable and don't even see the battlelines being drawn. We MUST seek Gods will on this. He's given us HIS spirit. Do you not know what the SPIRIT OF CHRIST allowed Christ to endure? Do you not know what type of spirit is in you?

People have the HOLY GHOST deep down in their souls and say they can't stop drinking, smoking, cussing, and watching pornography. Do you know who God is?

No excuses saints. This is the time when our tests will be proven. The Originial Poster of this thread believes that we are crazy, but it will be our generation that will once again PROVE GOD'S WORD TO BE TRUE.

If you, those who have the Holy Ghost say that you can't handle the torture your making God out to be a liar, because HIS WORD said you CAN...

...but your faith is required. I'll withstand with the help, grace, and mercy of MY GOD and it will be a testimony to the sinner man I pray, that God must be who he says he is, if a man would lay down everything for him. God help this generation.

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I believe that we have disagreed many times in the past, but I wonder if any of us truly can fathom the truth of what you have just said. I know that what you have said is the truth.

Indeed, I know my own faults and failings, and have been convicted of them by you. I am abashed and ashamed for not placing more of my trust in the Great God who came to set us all free and enable us to live in holiness.

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To God be the glory. I was convicting myself as I was writting it. We all have things we have to work on and improve on... myself included. This process continues until death. This walk we walk is a walk by faith and continued prayer and fasting. With fear and trembling we'll all work out our own salvation, and hopefully be able to help one another by praying with and for one another in the process, building up and edifying the church, rather than tearing it down and killing our wounded.

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We are in agreement on this. I fear that I lack on my fasting. It is a practice that I believe might be truly beneficial if cultivated to one day a week. This thread has now reached a point, where it can join the thread on travail, because that is where we will develop the power to hold when the evil days come.

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"This verse sums it up in it's entirety. God will not ask of us more then we can handle."

A thing about a relationship with your Father is that it parallels the relationship of an earthly father and child. I have always been able to see direct parallels. If you, as a father, were watching your child about to be tortured for lack of spouting something that their heart does not mean, I wonder if you might not reconsider.

Although I plan to live the rest of my life as if each day were my last, and am pretty sure you aren't really living til you might be dead tomorrow anyway, but while your words are correct, I don't believe the image they are conveying is an accurate characterization...maybe because it makes me a victim and ah, yes, it's because they haven't come to get me, I'm after them; there in that future scenario this has going on, that we extract from the Revelation, trying to turn it into Revelations. . Also because it displaces your center, in time, always bad.

Understanding that God won't overload you means you shouldn't lie awake at night even thinking about this. It's tomorrow, it never comes, and you should focus in an entirely different direction. You should not be preparing for Armageddon, you should be demonstrating life, more abundantly, right now, and preparing for a wedding. I don't think we should recruit people in fear.
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models

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Hell fire is not something to be afraid of, Bbyrd?

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I'm not "recruiting with fear". Put these emotions aside and look at the word.

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." Ephesians 6:13

It is required of us to endure hardship. Our endurance depends on Christ's strength.

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:11-13

When Paul said he can do all things through Christ he wasn't talking about prosperity teaching, name it and claim it, he was talking about enduring hardship and going through the storm with an understanding that God will eventually reward us according to our FAITHFULNESS.

Yes, God's relationship with the saints is often compared to a father-son relationship. In some ways it is.

It is also compared to a husband-wife relationship. In some ways it is.

It is also compared to a master-servant relationship. In some was it is, also.

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

The fact is if you want to discuss a father-son relationship in scripture you need to go back to brush up on some reading:

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." Isaiah 53:10

Now am I saying that our suffering pleases God? No. Am I saying however that ultimately God will glory in our suffering? Yes.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" 2 Timothy 2:12

How much more black and white can that scripture be?

No I'm not "recruiting with fear". I'm not trying to paint an ugly picture of life with Christ. I love the life we live it is a great life. It comes with a price however.

The price is your life.

This isn't being harsh, there's a reality to this:

"But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." 1 Peter 4:13

The scriptures are full of this reality. It's there. I'm not going to sugar-coat it. We are soldiers on a battfield. We've been drafted into a war we did not start. Because of SIN...

...NOT because of God...

...we either have to endure hardship with Christ relying on the power of the Holy Ghost for a short season (possibly) and then inherit eternal bliss or not endure hardship without Christ (maybe because some will endure hardship in this life they just won't have Christ) and then spend eternity in Hell.

That is sin's doing, not God's. All this talk about God wouldn't let us go through that. God cannot be held accountable for what sin has brought on this world.

The GREAT part about this is, with God on ourside we can't fail.

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So, we are saved by works?

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Bwahahaha

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Who said you were crazy??

You will notice, every poster on this Thread that supports the wrath of God upon those who deny the Lord while being tortured, have never been tortured. Typical, "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" religious rhetoric, stating the facts without the experience to back it. Christians today have turned the Bible and their Faith into a cartoon.

What did Jesus say to those who just crucified him?

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"Why have you forsaken me?"

It wasn't a curse to God or a denial of God to those killing Him but he WAS giving into despair at that moment.