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Sorry, my earlier link was not what I intended, please try again and review this book by Boyd Purcell: "Spiritual Terrorism" From the Womb to the Tomb.

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If i can find it at the library, I will reserve it and read it. checking now.

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Awesome, do I hear Fox being channeled?

Crakjak, can you give a quickie synopsis? ty

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added to my wishlist

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"Spiritual Terrorism is about the effect of fear-based religion on people's lives who have been spiritually abused by a negative conception of God through eternal hell-fire preaching and teaching. The doctrine of eternal punishment in literal fire is at the heart of many forms of spiritual abuse and all forms of spiritual terrorism which is the most extreme form of spiritual abuse.

This book effectively explains the symbolic use of fire in the Holy Bible and other Holy Books. The common misunderstanding of the metaphorical usage of fire is the primary cause of spiritual terrorism. Dr. Purcell clarifies the confusion over the Christian doctrine of salvation by grace and judgment which is based on the deeds of life-good or bad. This allows readers to grasp the liberating truth that people are totally free to live their lives but are also totally accountable, at the end of life, for how they have lived their lives. God will ultimately teach universal empathy and bring about perfect justice for all without violating anyone's free will.

Spiritual abuse has the potential to affect all stages of life: in the womb, childhood, youth, young adults, older adults, end of life, and bereavement after the deaths of loved ones. Spiritual abuse may also affect all areas of life: marriage/divorce, emotional/mental/physical abuse, medical treatment or refusal of such treatment for self and children, and domestic and international terrorism. All major world religions are addressed: Judeo/Christianity, Islam, and the Eastern Religions-Buddhism and Hinduism. Included as well are Native American Beliefs.

There is a theme running through all major religions of God's unconditional love, amazing grace, infinite mercy, perfect justice, and a universal homecoming."

Amen. Expect this to be roundly dissed by those who imagine that they are special.

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How satan loves it when Gods fear is mocked, scorned, hated, and swept aside. He works hard in all forms of religon to bring YHWH down to the level of men. They shake their fist at Heaven and declare "away with him"! " We will NOT have this man to reign over us!".

Instead men NEED to fear God. They need to understand he WILL hurt them if they do not believe in him and obey the gospel. Nothing is so clearly taught in the scriptures. Yet thats why there is a full frontal assault agaist the Bible going on. People would like to believe in a Jesus APART FROM THE BIBLE. Apart from the Apostles doctrine.

Gods answer to unbelief is for Christians to preach the gospel to them. If they believe they shall be saved.

If not:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thess. 1:6-9

Their punishment is EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord. They are destroyed from his presence forever. Not living in his presence in eternal life tortmented in flames for billions upon trillions of years.

The wages of sin is death which will happen in the lake of fire.

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Michael, I'm unclear if you agree with this books premises, or not?

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Ultimate Reconciliation aka Universalism is satans crown jewel. He wants men to believe in it. He does NOT want men to think there is going to be a day of judgment where YHWH himself will be the judge.

Its true men have perverted the doctrine of eternal judgment. The Old and New Testaments both teach the wages of sin is death. The soul that sins shall die. Pass from existence. Todays teaching inherited from the perversions of so called early Church Fathers have men living in immortality, eternal life while the flames of hell eat away at them for millions, then billions, then trillions of years and then it would simply start all over again.

The scriptural teaching is that God is love but not "unconditional love". Our hope of salvation is through Jesus alone. We can be engaged with him in a life of love and devotion basking in his favor walking in holiness OR we can enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season and reap the juddment of Christ on the last day. That is being cast into the lake of fire where you will eventually burn up and pass into what scripture calls "outer darkness" or the "mist of darkness". That nothingness that is when there is no life.

Hope that helps.

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Ah, ok, this is "Universalism?" I have a little experience with it, but I don't remember Christ being removed from their equation, hmm.

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Christian Universalism as presented by many teaches that there will be a purification process of the wicked dead. Something akin the the "Purgetory" doctrine of the Catholics. During that process the person will repent and then be saved.

Others simply teach since God loves everyone they shall simply enter Heaven but with less rewards. There are probably other versions also. Christian Universalism does not leave Christ out of the picture just invents him according to their own belief.

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Ok, well I gotta tell ya, i didn't get any of that from Matt Fox, and this book seems to mostly be interested in highlighting the same thing? Don't know, haven't read it, but it seems the same gist as my "death centric western Christian" rant. I hope you see that there might be a diff in your doctrinal theses above, which ya, I'm not buying, and this. Possibly.

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My thoughts were addressing a review of the book in question. The reviewer had really enjoyed it.

Are you a Christian Universalist?

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Ha, I'm not into modalism, or I'd be embarrassed that I had to Google that! Lol. No, I am not a universalist, at least according to wikipedia. But I have gone to their services before (a long time ago) and one would think that a doctrine like this would produce degenerates--I'm kind of missing their whole point, actually.

ps and the uni church I attended didn't seem degenerate; i remem them being pretty vibrant.

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Some people do not want to accept truth, and when they are faced with it wish to claim abuse. I have yet to have felt any abuse by the preaching of Hell. I would be interested in reading his book, however I am certain as to what I will find.

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If you don't believe people have been abused by the preaching of endless torment in literal fire, you are not living in the real world.

This book is written by a hospice provider that has dealt with numerous people that are facing death with deathly fear of face a uncertain future because they have been taught the if they miss the perfect concept of truth, they are going to suffer literal fire on the bodies endlessly!!!

This author has studied for years and presents the evidence of the religious conspiracy of eternal punishment, clearly refutes ED. Both from scripture and history.

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It is available for $5 from Amazon, on in the Kindle version.

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Jay, I understand that the old style hellfire and brimstone preaching is fading away, but the doctrine is still alive and well in many religious persuasions.

I was as a very young child very afraid of God, and of hell. You tell me if it is abuse to emotionally scream at young child about the likelihood of them going to hell?? That if you don't live perfectly, if you die with one unconfessed sin you are going there. Fortunately, my father did not focus on this approach, but the youth camps and campmeetings we attended had lots of it.

Further there are millions and millions of Catholics that live in mortal fear of literal fire in hell forever. Less than ten years ago, the church that we attended, and it was a nondenm. spiritfilled believing church, taught the fire and brimstone approach. This was a fairly mainstream church.

So, do yourself a favor and read the book, it glorifies God, the Cross and true Christianity.

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Well, I will be interested to read it, as I have hung on to ED, albeit in a more BeHereNow type of setting. I was not easily brought around to Fox's dismissal of our "born a sinner" theology, but it was obvious, in hindsight anyway. I have never quite gotten over the parallels to ED, and wonder if it might just be another "empire builder" way to manipulate the masses.

Hopefully he's heavy on the Scripture part.
http://www.wikihow.com/index.php?tit...&oldid=7193158
for a synopsis of M Fox, "Original Creation," which illuminates the creation of the fall/redemption, born a sinner mythology.

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I have sat many times under the preaching of Hell fire. I have never once felt abused by that fact. I have afterward searched my heart because I desire to be perfect in the eyes of God. I am fully aware of how far I must go to attain that position, but I will not cease. I love my God and do not wish to fail Him, however, I also bear in mind the recompense that is due when I contemplate rebellion against His authority. My aversion to pain and suffering is enough to make me want to get as close to Jesus as possible.

The problem with Catholicism is that they take away from the doctrine of Hell by adding other doctrines to comfort their souls such as purgatory and limbo. Further, they will actually put more people into purgatory than they will ever say went to Hell.

I believe that Hell is a place of eternal pain, suffering, and explicit photographic memory. I believe that the cravings that caused a person to rebel against the Lord during life will remain and torment them after death. I do not believe that there is any release for those that are eternally lost for it is not located in Scripture.

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[QUOTE=Jay;1140025]I have sat many times under the preaching of Hell fire. I have never once felt abused by that fact. I have afterward searched my heart because I desire to be perfect in the eyes of God. I am fully aware of how far I must go to attain that position, but I will not cease. I love my God and do not wish to fail Him, however, I also bear in mind the recompense that is due when I contemplate rebellion against His authority. My aversion to pain and suffering is enough to make me want to get as close to Jesus as possible.

The problem with Catholicism is that they take away from the doctrine of Hell by adding other doctrines to comfort their souls such as purgatory and limbo. Further, they will actually put more people into purgatory than they will ever say went to Hell.

I believe that Hell is a place of eternal pain, suffering, and explicit photographic memory. I believe that the cravings that caused a person to rebel against the Lord during life will remain and torment them after death. I do not believe that there is any release for those that are eternally lost for it is not located in Scripture.[/QUOTE]

That my friend is the most sad possible news, and I completely disagree with your view.

I have had a heart and a pursuit of God all of my life, and He has graciously revealed Himself to be a truly loving heavenly Father. Answering my prayer to "know Him as He really is", though it is not yet totally complete.

All will for sure be "salted by fire", or purified by fire. And that is the great Good News.

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I was raised with this, and it is sad. It is surely the best we could do at the time, and for all I know was just what was needed for the common mindset at the time. But it has completely gutted the Good News, imo, which for most people translates into "get 'saved,' and go hide in your house and wait for armageddon, except to stick your head out on Sunday to go to church," or even worse for the Kingdom, imo, go blather some memorized Scripture at strangers."

Jay, I know you love God, and you don't know me, but I know you well enough to say that you might consider those many, many verses that you can't really explain that would provide the..."release" that you currently deny. Grace as "leaven," that one time. "Each man will get his reward." "To vindicate the orphan and the oppressed, So that man who is of the earth will no longer cause terror."

You are comfortable with the death centered message, imo, like I was, because you are convinced that you are garbage in God's eyes, paraphrased, and this has been pounded into you from birth. A "future" stay in hell is your greatest fear, and you recruit the fearful, who by definition will not be able to stand.

Your greatest joy, your biggest carrot for them, is a possibility of Heaven, someday, maybe. It is a miracle that anyone finds God this way, but they do, when they get wise and chuck all this. It is not God's way.

Why does one fear hell? Because they are LOST. Why would a Christian pastor hold out the possibility of eternal life in some ephemeral, hereafter "eternity?" Because that's all...they...got. The Bible has never said this to me, not since age 9.

I'm not scared of hell, and personally I seriously doubt that you are. Hell is scared of me. So why teach fear of hell, again? It works like negative reinforcement works on animals--barely. I just ask that you read this book (and I just hope it is the right one) with an open mind, whoever you are. God has no interest in scaring you into Heaven, that is completely pointless.

See that you are not going to avoid fire as a Christian anyway, all that yack they tell you just causes you to run from the fire that will refine you. Suck it up and recognize that to be a real Christian, you are going to burn, and it is going to hurt, if you are doing it right. The same fire that torments in eternity, and is "hell" for the "lost," is the exact same fire that you will be immune to, for you will have been refined.

God is my Father, what have I to fear? Bring it; show me.

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Not everyone needs the threat of torture to be good.

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Guess not. While I don't really grasp their point, i guess it's because I haven't read their mission statement, or whatever, because the wikipedia def of "Uni" would seem to me to promote sin, rather than alleviate it; but this is not what I saw, at all.

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Was it a Unitarian Universalist meeting?

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/

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I don't remember, maybe Houston could say; it was the a fairly large place, there off 59S, between Sharpstown and Alief. I remember the kids, 12 year olds, struck me as quite mature. I was impressed; not sure why I never went to another...

And Jay, I hope you understand, I don't fault you. This is what we were given, inherited. I see that you are close here, to some understanding; why I feel this I don't know, but highlighting sin, the condemnation of sin, avoiding hellfire because of sin--this is just all another devious way to keep Law in people's faces. Bert with a smile, imo. Sorry, Bert. I know this seems unpleasant (sorry, Matt : )

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Did you just compare me to Bert!!!

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Not you specifically, no. I have a suspicion that you are quite life affirming, despite your training as a lawyer. You demonstrate Grace without even meaning to. Leave the condemnation for the Berts of the world, imo. And the satans. We got legion there already.

When Grace is properly the focus and demonstrated, the ones who matter will seek the Law on their own, and as for the ones that don't, "What is the chaff to the wheat?" They would be the first flakes in the fire anyway.

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Im reading Post Captian by Patrick O'Brian right now. im utterly inthralled. beyond the story his prose is brilliant!

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Ok, where is this in Scripture? It is not. It is a common assumption however. Note the curious lack of any such time frame in Scripture which causes this. This comes from a poor definition, the human definition, of "eternity."


You have made another connection here which is common, like the first, but not supported in Scripture. The wages of sin is death. You can still be walking around.

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I have never had any legal training to stand before the bar and take the exam. I do appreciate your estimation of my intellect and spiritual condition (though I am also well aware that you are far to kind).

I do not see a difference between believing in an eternal judgment with the ability to be as kind and courteous as is possible. I just wish that I could live it to the degree that so many are convinced that I do.

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"Lord, help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am." lol
And amen--judgement is eternal, ty God for Your Grace.
And we're all going to get the chance to do that last part, I'm thinkin.

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I see no more abuse in telling people they may end up in hell for living in sin than I would see abuse in telling someone they may end up destroying their life if they endulge in adultery, drugs, fraud or otehr immoral actions. I see the opposite. I see concern for them. You warn those you care for and wish to see the best for.

I warn people about the possibility of an eternal hell if they don't love God and seek to live right because I care for them. I don't want them to end up there.

Abuse would be telling peopel they shoul djust love god and live however they want b/c in the end we all get to go to heaven anyways whn that isn't in the scripture despite what the UNiversalist nonsense attempts to propagate.

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Im not sure preaching hell has worked, At least not in perfecting saints.

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Your kidding, comparing a messed up life with ED????

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It was implemented by the Roman state church to control the massess! It hasn't worked because folks don't really believe it, it is too horrible to be believed.

This book is not a Unitarian view, it is a Christian Universalists view, the authors views are common to most of us, other that CU, which he presents in the context of scripture. He shows how ED has terrorized people for centuries, and the church just cannot believe is it false, to which he presents scripture and experience to prove its validity. I have come to embrace his conclusions over the last ten years of intense study, and prayful consideration. CU is being studied and clarified more and more, and this author voices more clearly where my studies have taken me than any other author that I have been able to find.

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I just believe that the whole premise is wrong there, and satan inspired. the whole focus becomes hell, and its avoidance, instead of "Life, more abundantly." It is preaching Law, when we are under Grace. This does not mean that Law is not necessary, but that it def should not be the focus. I liken it to negative v positive reinforcement. Christ remains a virtual abstract with this model. I effectively just got to know Christ when I dumped this, a couple of years ago.

It's great to care for people, literally. That strikes me as a much better way than following a model that will dictate that you worry about hair length, when your starving, thirsty neighbor could not care less about that.