Science of Creation
 

Heres a thought,

Scientists are saying they can see a horizon line in space, a light horizon.
http://everyjoe.com/technology/how-c...years-old-191/

In this article it also speaks of the universe expanding constantly...

Isaiah 40:22
"[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in"

Job 26:7
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing."

But even at that if we were to take it further in old testament it states we could see heaven from earth, but over time it got farther away... Isaiah 59:2... we know sin seperates us from god.

But as for this horizon line being the center of the universe.....

Genesis 1:7
"And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

Not only that they state they can see a "Dark Swirling Matter"
(see waters from same genesis verse)

It seems like they are only speculating what Christians already know and giving their own names to it, then attributing another source.

Re: Science of Creation
 

I love science. The only problem with 'science'.....is 'so-called scientists'.....the ones who pre-determine that they will not look under 'every rock' for an explanation.....but will only consider an explanation that will support what they have 'already decided'. That is not science, it is only biased opinion.

Re: Science of Creation
 

This is exactly right. Amazing that everything in the Universe is moving away from everything else at constant proportional speed, thus we see the farthest objects from us moving the fastest and also amazing that the bible compares it to the surface of a tent which is very good analogy for our Universal expansion.

When the bible speaks of "waters" is is most likely speaking about the massive amount of hydrogen, which is the ONLY matter that existed immediately after the Big Bang (ok, there was two forms of hydrogen -matter and antimatter but that is opening up a HUGE can of worms to talk about here. LOL).

Re: Science of Creation
 

That is really a stupid article. It doesent add up biblically or scientifically. It is 'ass-uming'...that if big-bang is correct...that there could 'only be' 'one bang'. Look at nature.....in the spring, every flower doesent 'pop out' of just one place and spread out, they pop out all over the place when the 'conditions' are right. And in biblical creation.....it says God created the heavens....nowhere does it say that he created them all at one central point.....and spread them out. He would have put the radishes in one spot, corn in another, a nice roomy spot to manage the tomatoes etc. Why do people 'assume' that 'God' is not intelligent? Even if they deny 'God'....they even assume the 'universe' is not intelligent. But then...if it is a non-concious creation.....that would make sense that we have so many non-concious people walking around with no faith.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Comparing the big bang to flowers is stupid. Its not the same thing. You are comparing cosmology to botany...:smack

Re: Science of Creation
 

All I was gonna say was ":blink". :lol

Re: Science of Creation
 

Ok.....so compare it to popcorn.

Re: Science of Creation
 

...and while I am at it. Why isn't it called 'little-bang'? If it is an expanding universe, it must have been very minute in the beginning.

Re: Science of Creation
 

If you throw a rock into space....and it keeps going for billions of years.... would it keep getting bigger as it got futher into the expanding universe? Or would it remain 'static and not keep up with the 'ratio' of outward expansion? How would relative theory apply?

Re: Science of Creation
 

Now that is a good point! :)

Re: Science of Creation
 

....also, in Genesis, God never once said 'how big' either the earth or the heavens were at 'the beginning'. We have some weird stuff in our world that really makes no sense...just simple things like the 'ratio' of a bicycle wheel. Have you ever really 'observed' how the hub stays in one place but rotates.....while the tire is going really fast? Why dosen't it tear itself apart? For some reason...it all works.

Re: Science of Creation
 

I've heard better conundrums. This one's not that hard. Yes, there are forces in a spinning tire that are "trying" to tear the it apart, but the wheel simply is strong enough not to break. (Usually! ;))

Re: Science of Creation
 

I am not talking about the forces of the spinning tire, rather that they are going at different speeds....relatively.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Oh. In that case, :blink.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Actually, Genesis describes how God created things in a way the boggles the mind. I'm a bit of a fanatic about creation and a bit of a hater on the big bang.

Here's the thing about creation according to the Word - everything that God created was created fully developed and mature (trees already able to bear fruit, adult animals able to produce offspring, sun-moon-stars already giving light). God created a mature universe that was "mid-stride" at the point of creation and continues as He created it.

In the big-bang, all of mass was chaotically spewed from a central point. It just happened that concentrations of chaotic mass gathered together and formed the astronomical bodies (some formed stars, other bits formed planets, still others formed moons, asteroids, etc.). And yet, although they "formed" from many scattered bits, they "behaved" considerably differently then you would expect. As they gathered together into form, they continued to move away from their central point of origin, instead of becoming stationary objects. Other objects began to revolve around other objects. And from chaos, an intricate and precise mechanism was formed...that was still moving uniformly away from a central point...and still behaving with precision. And scientists have the gall to call us ignorant.

Re: Science of Creation
 

So your God is a Loki god (god of lies)? All this false history of things that never actually happened. Stars that went Nova where there is the evidence of the explosion but never an actual explosion sort of like creating the cloud from an exploding stick of dynamite without there ever having been the dynamite? Light that took billions of years to get here -even being bent by traveling around other stars (called 'gravity lensing') in the process, but apparently only made to LOOK like it took a long time to get here.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Messier 9 star cloud formation 25 thousand light years from Earth showing over 250,000 stars (and yes, it took the light that long to get here). If our own solar system was there we would be baked from the massive amount of solar radiation present, and yet in a "Young Earth" Universe it wouldn't matter. In an OLD Universe it does, which is why God chose THIS location for our planet and not one more central to our Galaxy.

http://asset0.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d...l_900x900.jpeg

Re: Science of Creation
 

Loki...really? Seriously...the God of the Bible is a god of lies? I'm not sure what "history" you're referring to unless it's the history that godless scientists want you to believe that never existed. Nothing discovered in nature precludes a Young Earth (oh, btw, I'm a rabid young Earther).

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

None of the animals began life as newborns (or any other pre-form). None of the astronomical bodies were created as swirling, gaseous, forming objects slowly coming together. The Genesis account of creation depicts God creating things in the mature forms over a 6 day period (very quickly). When you begin to mix "billions of years" into the discuss, then you have given credence to the lie that God influenced a process instead of speaking things into existence.

Re: Science of Creation
 

That's a very impressive picture; unfortunately either science's description is wrong or the Genesis account is wrong.

The Earth was created on Day 2:

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

The stars and other celestial lights were created on Day 3:

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

I suppose this brings us to a very important decision point: if the Messier 9 star cloud formation is indeed capable of toasting the Earth, but the Bible says that the stars were formed after the Earth, then we must conclude that either the Bible is wrong about creation (what happened on which day) or science is wrong in their observation and conclusion about Messier 9.

I choose to believe the Bible.

Re: Science of Creation
 

I thot Loki was the god of "luck?"

Re: Science of Creation
 

But they move at the same angular speed...

Re: Science of Creation
 

I watched a documentary that explained: Of all the places in 'our galaxy' we could be 'placed'...where we are 'under the edge' and near a fairly uncongested part of the galaxie.....gives us a better 'view' of everything around us. Otherwise we would not be able to see what we do.

Re: Science of Creation
 

No, he is the god of deception. Haven't you seen "Thor" yet?

Re: Science of Creation
 

Indeed. A better view as well as a place with far less interaction with other solar systems and less exposure to radiation.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Ah, no. But those guys were multi-purpose anyway.
http://i.imgur.com/2WrrT.jpg

Re: Science of Creation
 

I get a BIG BANG everytime I read this forum!!!!

Re: Science of Creation
 

It would not take billions of years for that light to reach us if the rate of the universes expansion was variable correct? For instance, assuming the universe were created 6-10 thousand years ago as I believe to be true, lets say God created everythign in the same literal 6 day period. Now, that includes these systems that according to modern science are thousands of light years away. But in the beginning they wouldn't have had to be that far away. If they were created much closer to our system and then "pushed" away by God just after the creation at a great speed, then we could have a universe where it appears that it took billions of years of expansion ( and 25000 light years for the light to reach us) when in reality, it may not have.

Further, despite the fact that it makes some think I am a loon, I am not convinced all these galaxies and systems actually are out there. They show me pics form the Hubble or other telescopes, and they look impressive, but I have seen things that look just like them from under a microscope and even from looking at things through a drop of water in the sunlight. In other words, what is the proof that they aren't just seeing distortion or a "trick of the eye" and yet they are more than happy to proclaim that they are distant galaxies and solar systems so far away that we will likely NEVER be able to see them and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are really there.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to things of that nature. Sorry. I don't believe in aliens either. LOL.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Randy,

Is God a "Loki god (god of lies)" if He has disclosed the truth in His Word? Since God has disclosed what He did in the creation, isn't it more appropriate to discribe us as playing "doubting Thomas", a people unwilling to take the creator's own testimony of His own actions?

There are too many variables to consider when reviewing natural history. And perhaps even more that we've not even considered at this point. Remember, we have fossiles that do not conform to various strata. Some have even claimed to have found traces of human life in stata that dates tens of millions of years old, far further back than mankind is believed to have existed.

Re: Science of Creation
 

One creation theory that those who are "scientifically inclined" might enjoy is, Creation and Evolution, by Alan Hayward:

http://www.amazon.com/Creation-Evolu...2772926&sr=1-1

Alan proposes that the creation narrartive includes parenthetical statements. Essentially this theory proposes that God did speak during a literal six day period. However, the results of his words weren’t seen until billions of years later. That would mean that our entire world, no matter how long the results took to take place, were the results of God’s creative word spoken during a week’s time. It would read like this,

Genesis 1:1-31
{1:1} In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth. {1:2} And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of
God moved upon the face of the waters.
{1:3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light.

({1:4} And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and
God divided the light from the darkness. {1:5} And God
called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.)

And the evening and the morning were the first day.
{1:6} And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

({1:7} And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which [were] under the firmament from the waters which
[were] above the firmament: and it was so. {1:8} And God
called the firmament Heaven.

And the evening and the morning were the second day.
{1:9} And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be
gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land]
appear: and it was so.

{1:10} And God called the dry [land]
Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he
Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.

{1:11} And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and]
the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in
itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

{1:12} And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind,
and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after
his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

{1:13} And the
evening and the morning were the third day.
{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them
be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
{1:15} And let them be for lights in the firmament of the
heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

{1:16} And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars
also. {1:17} And God set them in the firmament of the
heaven to give light upon the earth, {1:18} And to rule over
the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the
darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.

{1:19} And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. {1:20} And
God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the
earth in the open firmament of heaven.

{1:21} And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,
which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind,
and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it
was] good. {1:22} And God blessed them, saying, Be
fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let
fowl multiply in the earth.

{1:23} And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
{1:24} And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living
creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast
of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

{1:25} And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after
their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after
his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

{1:26} And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish
of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the earth.

{1:27} So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and
female created he them. {1:28} And God blessed them, and
God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish
the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living
thing that moveth upon the earth.

{1:29} And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding
seed; to you it shall be for meat. {1:30} And to every beast
of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing
that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have
given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.

{1:31} And
God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was]
very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I found this interpretation interesting.

Re: Science of Creation
 

There are a number of instances of fossil "evidence" that even Young Earthers don't use anymore -at least the honest ones.

The simple fact is that if a man is standing in freshly fallen snow and there is a 10 mile trail of footprints behind him, it is safe to assume that he actually walked that path. Young Earthers want us to believe that God created him where he was and then created the footprints behind him and that the man never actually made them with his feet -even though they match his stride, foot size, and even the tread on his boots soles.

And yes, we were all created 2 seconds ago with a lifetime of false memories implanted in us by Loki, errrr, I mean God. Now disprove it.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the following,

God creates the entire universe (possibly through the Big Bang) in the dateless past (perhaps billions and billions of years ago).

Genesis 1:1-31
{1:1} In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth.

Now, the universe as we know it, our solar system, distant galaxies, etc., are formed. However, the planet that would one day be known as "earth" was covered with water and dark coulds of gases:

{1:2} And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.

God now focuses on this planet for six literal days. His first act was to penetrate the dark clouds with light:

And the Spirit of
God moved upon the face of the waters.
{1:3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light.
({1:4} And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and
God divided the light from the darkness. {1:5} And God
called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.)
And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Next, God began to form an atomosphere:

{1:6} And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
({1:7} And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which [were] under the firmament from the waters which
[were] above the firmament: and it was so. {1:8} And God
called the firmament Heaven.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Next God lifted the continental shelves and dry land appeared. God then created plant life to cover the earth:

{1:9} And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be
gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land]
appear: and it was so.
{1:10} And God called the dry [land]
Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he
Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
{1:11} And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and]
the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in
itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
{1:12} And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind,
and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after
his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
{1:13} And the
evening and the morning were the third day.

Next, God cleared the atmosphere to the point where the sun, moon, and stars were visible and assigned them their astrologic and astronomic purposes:

{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them
be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
{1:15} And let them be for lights in the firmament of the
heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
{1:16} And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars
also. {1:17} And God set them in the firmament of the
heaven to give light upon the earth, {1:18} And to rule over
the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the
darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
{1:19} And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Next, God creates sea creatures and winged creatures (birds and insects):

{1:20} And
God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the
earth in the open firmament of heaven.
{1:21} And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,
which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind,
and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it
was] good. {1:22} And God blessed them, saying, Be
fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let
fowl multiply in the earth.
{1:23} And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Finally, God creates beasts, land animals, and man:

{1:24} And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living
creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast
of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
{1:25} And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after
their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after
his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
{1:26} And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish
of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the earth.
{1:27} So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and
female created he them. {1:28} And God blessed them, and
God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish
the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living
thing that moveth upon the earth.
{1:29} And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding
seed; to you it shall be for meat. {1:30} And to every beast
of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing
that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have
given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
{1:31} And
God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was]
very good.

I believe that the focus of Genesis 1 is on the planet earth. Not necessarily the entire cosmos.

So... think of my theory like this:

-Old universe, interpreted much like the Gap-Theory.
-Old planetoid, without life prior to the creation week.
-A literal creation week that brings life to this ancient planetoid.

Essentially, it's a blending of the Gap-Theory and Young Earth Creationism. This theory will allow for the universe to show signs of vast age. However, it is "life" on earth that is relatively recent.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Lol, ya. One ends up sounding like the Catholic church v...common sense, v Galileo, v Copernicus, et al, and incidentally, without meaning to, pronouncing the same death sentence upon the enlightened.

Nitehawk, really? with the 6000 year old earth? Hmm.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Why not 6000 years? You really think some assinine idea like Billions of years is more logical than 6000? The very idea of a million years is so far beyond human comprehension that a Billion is nothign but a joke.

Endless ages of time is the way "scientists" make up for the fact thatthey want people to believe completely unobservable nonsense. "Oh let's just say it took hundreds of millions of years of slow evolution. That's a great idea". There are plenty of real scientists out there that know and acknowledge that these ideas of Billions of years are nonsense.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Hmm, I always saw it as evidence of God's domination of time, somewhat like your astute observation that constellations cannot be seen by the naked eye--what Hubble sees cannot be seen by a being without a telescope. I am led to a diff conclusion there also, however--mine being "God is a freak, and there are way freakier things that humans have not invented the instruments to see yet," not "vast satanic conspiracy to delude." (I reserve that for politics and religion, lol)

I might argue that we have dating techniques, etc., but I'm mostly curious how you might argue the positions of Catholicism v Galileo, Copernicus, et al (yikes, I need to put that phrase on an Fkey, lol).

Or to rephrase, do you think the earth is round? And we might just proceed from there.

Re: Science of Creation
 

Which I mean to be taken at face value--I usually pretty much agree with you, and I'm curious where we differ there.

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Aquila, I'm curious what you think about the "eighth day creation" theory? Something about "eth ha Adam?" I have little exposure to this, Arnold Murray only, but despite the fact I don't agree with him about everything, he seems quite the scholar, and is adamant here? He convinced me that "...and the earth became void" pretty much...ty