Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

The justices will decide whether to kill or keep the largest expansion in the nation's social safety net in more than four decades.

I wonder how the outcome will affect the election, i.e. Romneycare/Obamacare?

Interesting words by George Will, today, on This Week with George Stephanopoulos.

Interesting what he says in the last paragraph - "regulating the mental activity of choosing".

WILL: I really disagree with Terry on this. I think the Supreme Court is composed of nine intelligent, conscientious judges who are prepared to judge in this case. Why did they take it? Because the circuits are in conflict, and the circuits -- some important circuit judges say -- in very persuasive opinions -- that portions of the law -- at least two portions -- are unconstitutional, the Medicaid expansion, which is a burden that eviscerates (ph) federalism and, of course, the mandate.

They're going to decide -- try at long last to see if there is any limiting principle on the ability of Congress to act simply because it asserts that whatever they're regulating has a substantial impact on interstate commerce. If there is no limiting principle, then the Madisonian architecture of limited government is gone and the federal government has an unlimited...

(Stephanopoulos cuts him off)

ROBERTS: (OFF-MIKE) Commerce Clause, which, of course, says that the Congress has the right to regulate interstate commerce. But the -- and everything now is considered interstate commerce.

WILL: That's the problem.

WILL: I think Matt may be right about that, but, again, I think this is a serious argument about serious constitutional issues. Independent of the fact that the public doesn't like it or the fact that it is the president's signature achievement.

To the argument that health care is unique because everyone uses it, everyone uses food, shelter, clothing, energy, transportation. This is a comprehensive argument, if you let it loose in this case.

Second, a judge has actually said, well, we're not regulating the inactivity of not buying health insurance. We're regulating the mental activity of choosing not to buy health insurance. When you get into this kind of Orwellian language, you're doing something wrong.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

What is sad is that the case will decided either way by a 5-4 vote. You already know which four judges will side WITH it, regardless of how unconstitutional it is -their just liberals.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

I heard all week it would be a 5-4 in favor of overturning it. Today I was hearing the opposite. Pretty typical of George Stephanopoulos to cut off Will at this point in the conversation - "If there is no limiting principle, then the Madisonian architecture of limited government is gone and the federal government has an unlimited..."

Many wanted Kagen to be recused and Clarence Thomas because his wife received money as a lobbyist for Heritage Foundation being against the Affordable Healthcare Law.

They were going to have the debate/conversation anyway. So, I think they might as well stay seated and debate it in court.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

And another point that the Supreme Court usually rules in favor of the sitting President. I wonder what might be some important cases where they didn't?

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

When Thomas Jefferson was president. Marbury v Madison. The Court under John Marshall ruled in Marbury's favor, so, against a sitting president. Jefferson and Madison acquiesced to the Court's ruling.

It was a landmark decision because it set the precedent for the Supreme Court being able to decide if a congressional act was or was not constitutional.

Can't think of anything in recent years, offhand. :hmmm

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

I have a bad feeling about this case at the Supreme. I hope I am wrong.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

What would be great is if the Supreme Court can rule with a surgical knife and not an "all-or-nothing" approach. I am just not sure if it is their place to perform surgery on this very good intentioned, but poorly written law.

Something needs to be done about healthcare in America, but the current Healthcare Reform would do more harm than good, as it stands right now.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

3 days of oral argument:

Monday: The arguments will focus on the Anti-Injunction Act issue.

Tuesday: The individual mandate

Wednesday: The severability issue and the Medicaid issue will be addressed.

Amicus brief filed by American Center for Law & Justice, 119 members of Congress and more than 144,000 supporters - (pdf)

http://c0391070.cdn2.cloudfiles.rack...rida-v-hhs.pdf

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

The Supreme Court has posted the audio of Obamacare, Day One:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...=11-398-Monday

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

TRANSCRIPT:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86774567/T...are-reform-law

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

It SHOULD be one of the simplest decision the SC has ever made. Obamacare clearly overreached and breached the constitution. However, constitutionality doesn't mean as much as political ideology and 4 of those judges are as liberal as the day is long. All they have to do is sway one voice, which wouldn't surprise me. Then our country will continue down the march to being a bankrupt mess liek most of europe. Sad really.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Obama Lawyer Laughed at In Supreme Court

On the first day of health care reform arguments before the Supreme Court, two justices needled a top Obama lawyer for simultaneously calling the fine that will be paid under the law for not purchasing insurance a “penalty” and a “tax.”

“General Verrilli, today you are arguing that the penalty is not a tax. Tomorrow you are going to be back and you will be arguing that the penalty is a tax,” said Justice Samuel Alito, in one of the few laugh lines throughout the 90 minutes of argument Monday.

http://nation.foxnews.com/obamacare/...-supreme-court

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

After The New Deal, the Supreme Court broadened their view of federal authority to regulate economic activities. It's going to be an uphill battle.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Jay Sekulow on Fox News: Day 1 of ObamaCare Oral Arguments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=e4-FLJmghMM

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Follow this logic all the way out and there is something wrong with forcing those who drive to buy insurance, or enforcing any laws at all.

All action or inaction requires thought first (for those of us who have our mental faculties and good health).

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

One can choose not to drive though

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Auto insurance is required by state law, as it is legal to do so, that is why Mass. had the right to pass a state health coverage, it is the state's right not the feds.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

so now they can say we will make you get medical treatment. my medical issues are nobodies business.:foottap
What if I refuse medical treatment. Will they make me get insurance?
why?

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

The audiotape of the individual mandate oral argument will be available this afternoon on the Supreme Court's website by 2:00 p.m. eastern time. You can access the Court's website here - http://www.supremecourt.gov/

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

This video has been taken down, but what it does underscore and what is going to pose as a problem for the Federal Government and Obamacare is the inability to consistently label the provisions in the Healthcare bill.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Audio is up.

Department of Health and Human Servs. v. Florida
Docket Number: 11-398-Tuesday
Date Argued: 03/27/12


http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...11-398-Tuesday

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

good work po, this should be interesting material.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Transcript is also available:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...98-Tuesday.pdf

It's helpful to recognize who is talking while you are listening to the audio, IMO.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Why didn't Congress call it a tax, then?

GENERAL VERRILLI: Well -CHIEF

JUSTICE ROBERTS: You're telling me they thought of it as a tax, they defended it on the tax power. Why didn't they say it was a tax?

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

JUSTICE SCALIA: You're saying that all the discussion we had earlier about how this is one big uniform scheme and the Commerce Clause, blah, blah, blah, it really doesn't matter. This is a tax and the Federal Government could simply have said, without all of the rest of this legislation, could simply have said, everybody who doesn't buy health insurance at a certain age will be taxed so much money, right?

GENERAL VERRILLI: It -- it used its powers together to solve the problem of the market not -

JUSTICE SCALIA: Yes, but you didn't need that.

GENERAL VERRILLI -- providing affordable coverage -

JUSTICE SCALIA: You didn't need that. If it's a tax, it's only -- raising money is enough.

GENERAL VERRILLI: It is justifiable under its tax power.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Okay. Extraordinary.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: We get tax credits for having solar-powered homes. We get tax credits for using fuel-efficient cars. Why couldn't we get a tax credit for having health insurance and saving the government from caring for us.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Tomorrow the severability will be discussed. In other words, if the mandate is declared to be unconstitutional, will the whole healthcare bill need to go.

Today, Justice Kennedy, who is considered the swing vote, voiced his skepticism on the constitutionality of the mandate. He called it "unprecedented".

Here's hoping. You can't really judge by oral arguments, but it was a good sign.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Justice Kennedy talking about the individual mandate at today's Supreme Court Hearing on ObamaCare:

"But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.

And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental way."

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Ooops, Romney!!! , Obama's Lawyer tagged you into the Obamacare. LOL!

Told you! - Romneycare = Obamacare


Page 109: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...98-Tuesday.pdf

Solicitor General, Donald B. Verrilli, Jr. - Think about how much it would cost to get the insurance when you are at the hospital or at the doctor. It would be -- it would be unfathomably high. That will never work. Congress understood that. It chose the means that will work, the means that it saw worked in the States and in the State of Massachusetts, and that -- and that it had every reason to think would work on a national basis.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

A little late putting this up. I didn't have the correct Docket number for some reason.

This segment is discussing Medicaid and whether the Federal Government can withhold all federal Medicaid funding it provides to a state, if any state refuses to accept the reorganization of Medicaid and the associated additional costs.

Florida v. Department of Health and Human Servs.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...rgument=11-400

Transcript:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...pts/11-400.pdf

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Page 21

LOL!

JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Clement, I didn't take the time to figure this out, but maybe you did. Is there any chance that all 26 States opposing it have Republican governors, and all of the States supporting it have Democratic governors? Is that possible?

MR. CLEMENT: There's a correlation, Justice Scalia.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Yes.

(Laughter.)

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

This segment covers the severability argument, i.e., if the mandate is struck down, the remaining portions of Obamacare will be unable to function properly and should then be invalidated.


National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...rgument=11-393

Transcript:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...pts/11-393.pdf

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Obama will get a thorugh spanking on this !

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

I don't know. Hope so, but we will see. I believe they will have a ruling on Friday and their opinions will be available at the end of June.

I'm just getting around to listening to the severability argument. That should be interesting. I have really enjoyed listening to the oral arguments.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

After yesterday I think it's obvious that the conservatives on the bench rightly feel that its outside the bounds of their constitutional powers to, as you say, "rule with a surgical knife". Scalia asked the Solicitor General for a precedent for that and he could name none. What needs to be done in America about healthcare is to allow open borders for insurance companies. The level of competition would be raise and prices would lower. Health insurance would be a lot more affordable. Besides the real number if uninsured in USA is about 15 million not 50 million. Many of those 15 mil are young ppl who choose not to carry insurance because theynare young and healthy. Another segment of that 15 mil are wealthy folks who choose not to carry insurance and pay as they go.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Deacon, Do you think that if they allow open borders, which I am in favor of, that it could lend more teeth to the Commerce Clause?

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Great closing argument by Clement - Pgs. 82-83. He did a fine job. :thumbsup

Mr. Clement: Now, in getting back to the -- an inquiry that I think this Court actually can approach, is to look at what Congress was trying to do, you need look no further than look than the title of this statute: Patient Protection and Affordable Care. I agree with Mr. Farr that community rating and guaranteed-issue were the crown jewels of this Act. They were what was trying to provide patient protection. And what made it affordable? The individual mandate. If you strike down guaranteed-issue, community rating and the individual mandate, there is nothing left to the heart of the Act.

And that takes me to my last point, which is simply this Court in Buckley created a halfway house, and it took Congress 40 years to try to deal with the situation, when contrary to any time of their intent, they had to try to figure out what are we going to do when we are stuck with this ban on contributions, but we can't get at expenditures because the Court told us we couldn't. And for -- for 40 years they worked in that halfway house.

Why make them do that in health care? The choice is to give Congress the task of fixing this statute, the residuum of this statute after some of it is struck down, or giving them the task of simply fixing the problem on a clean slate. I don't think that is a close choice. If the individual mandate is unconstitutional, the rest of the Act should fall.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

Clements closing argument, on the severability, with the reference to Buckley is explained more fully on Page 22.


Mr. Clement: And if I could make the broader point, I mean, I think the reason it makes sense in the democracy with separation of powers to in some cases sever the whole thing is because sometimes a half a loaf is worse. And a great example, if I dare say so, is Buckley. In Buckley this Court looked at a statute that tried to, in a coherent way, strike down limits on contributions and closely related expenditures.

This Court struck down the ban on expenditures, left the contribution ban in place, and for 4 decades Congress has tried to fix what's left of the statute, largely unsuccessfully, whereas it would have I think worked much better from a democratic and separation of powers standpoint if the Court would have said: Look, expenditures are -- you can't limit expenditures under the Constitution; the contribution provision is joined at the hip. Give Congress a chance to actually fix the problem.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

PO, why exactly are you against Obamacare? Obamacare is good for insurance companies. If obamacare fails, democrats will begin to push for a single payer system with the expansion of medicare, medicaid and chip. there is a single payer system in vermont and legislation in california and massachusetts. republicans should be supporting obamacare because if it fails democrats will get what they really want, a single payer system. win win for democrats. insurance companies will lose big. democrats passed the conservative option. The liberal option will be what is left if obamacare fails. there will be huge support for the liberal option. You are so partisan, you oppose obamacare for partisan reasons and don't realize that it is the conservative option. republicans are on the wrong side of history.

Re: Obamacare goes to Supreme Court Monday
 

A Federal Mandate is not conservative policy. I am for Free Market solutions. I am for consumer-based medicine, consumer-based patient centered healthcare reform.