Growing Faith
 

posted on facebook today......


Growing Faith
Kenneth E. Hagin (August 20, 1917 - September 19, 2003)

"We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly..." (2 Thess. 1:3).

God gets all believers started off equally with the measure of faith after they are born again. He doesn't give one baby Christian more faith than He gives another. After we are born again, however, it is up to each one of us to develop the measure of faith that has been given to us.

Too many have done with their faith what the fellow did with his one talent: He wrapped it in a napkin, hid it, and didn't use it.

Your measure of faith can be increased, it can grow. But you are the one who increases it, not God!

Your measure of faith can be increased by doing these two things:
Feeding it on the Word of God, and
(2) Exercising it by putting it into practice.

Confession: God has given me the measure of faith. I will see to it that my faith grows exceedingly. I will feed my faith on the Word of God. I will exercise my faith, I will put it into practice. My faith is growing.

Re: Growing Faith
 

What think ye....?

Do we each have a "measure" of God given faith?

Can our faith "grow"?

At 2 Thessalonians 1:3 I have a note in the margin of my Bible that says:

Faith is like a muscle: It can be strengthened.
It can be weak or it can be strong depending on how much you use it.
Rick Warren

Re: Growing Faith
 

Wow, hard to believe someone would use something from Pop Hagin on an Apostolic Board, lol...

Anyway, this states there are two ways to grow your faith. I know there is Scripture that teaches that Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word. So I agree on that.... but where does the Bible say exercising your faith increases it?

Re: Growing Faith
 

Hmm, and you might define "hearing" here, as it prolly
isn't the "hearing" we define? I mean, I know it isn't
the hearing we define...

Re: Growing Faith
 

It is a Greek noun, not a verb... so there it already shifts from our normal thought of the word hearing. Here is the definintion of that Greek Word akoe.

1) the sense of hearing

2) the organ of hearing, the ear

3) the thing heard

a) instruction, namely oral

1) of preaching the gospel

b) hearsay, report or rumour

Re: Growing Faith
 

Bro. Robbins, I am going to need to do some research of my own on this, but I believe that the Bible says that exercising our faith does increase it. Further, the Bible says that we build faith by 'praying in the Holy Ghost'. So there are multiple ways to build faith, and all of them must be put to use in the life of a Christian.

Re: Growing Faith
 

We usually quote Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" as an exhortation to read/hear the Word to increase our faith. When we read, hear, or confess the Word we can build up our faith.

"Faith" is spoken of as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 KJV but this is translated "faithfulness" in versions such as ESV, Amplified, ASV, CJB, NASB, NKJV, NLT so I don't think that faith/trust is a fruit of the Spirit.

Jude verse 20 says, " But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost," so praying in our prayer language or praying in the Spirit or praying in tongues can edify us. Some quote this as a means of building our faith. I think it just means we edify/build up ourselves as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 14:4 and Paul said he did this himself in verses 14, 15, and 18.

Jude verse 20 in the Message says:
But you, dear friends, carefully build yourselves up in this most holy faith by praying in the Holy Spirit
In the Amplified Bible it says:
But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit;

Re: Growing Faith
 

You found them, sir. Those were the verses to which I was making reference.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Please, with all due respect, don't use the Message to quote Scripture when talking doctrine. That is not a version, it's a paraphrase, which makes it inappropriate when discussion theological viewpoints of a Scripture.

Anyway, in regards to Jude 20, there is a comma there.. and you and Jay in my opinion are taking where the writer is making a list, and tying two things together....

Jude 1:20 ¶ But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

The writer here is saying, item 1 - building up yourselves on your most holy faith (and) item 2 - Praying in the Holy Ghost (and) item 3 - keeping yourselves in the love of God (and) item 4 - looking for the mercy...

I also do believe that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but is that doesn't add anything to it coming from time in the Word. The Word can only be understood spiritually, not carnally, so to me, it is merely complimenting the Romans verse here...

Praying in the Holy Ghost (hate that phrase "prayer language", lol) will not increase one's faith in my opinion of what I've studied in the Word. As a matter of fact, it is dependent upon faith. Just my thoughts...

But I still don't see any Scriptures that talk about "exercising" your faith or "using" your faith to make it grow. It preaches real well, and I've heard it a thousand times... but don't see it in the Word.

Re: Growing Faith
 

1. The Message IS a paraphrase (at least that's the term we OP's like to use for it) like The Living Bible was a few years ago. Any translation/version/paraphrase naturally reflects the opinion of the translators and includes any restrictions which may have been placed upon them by those authorizing or sponsoring the version. For example if I read a New World Version I have to remember that it is a Bible "translation" authorized by the Watchtower Society for use by Jehovah's Witnesses so I would expect it to promote JW doctrine like using "torture stake" for cross and "a god" for "God" in John 1:1. The King James Version was authorized by a pervert for use in the Anglican Church so we have to take into account that it is a version translated by trinitarians for use in a trinitarian church and had to please Anglican hierarchy before it could be published. For a couple of examples the term "Bishop" is used for "overseer," "baptism" is used instead of given the translation of "dip" or "immerse" or "overwhelm" and the phrase "God Save the King" is used which was a common term used in England at that time.
I am not KJV only but it is my favorite and has been for over half a century. I read several versions but basically use the KJV for a plumb line by which to measure other versions.

2. yeppers, there is a comma there in our KJV and also in other translations. I had to look at several before I found one (the Message) which made the edifying and the praying in the Spirit seem like one action instead of two out of three. It is my understanding that there were no commas in the Greek text so punctuation is something supplied by the translators and could reflect their own interpretation.

And, yes, I agree that there is no Scripture that tells us how to "grow" our faith. The reference to the Thessalonian saints given was from a letter from Paul to a young church. It may have been the second epistle he wrote (1 Thessalonians being the first and Galatians the third in the opinion of some) written shortly after 1 Thessalonians. Dates I have seen are:
1 Thessalonians written August AD 51 from Athens (ref Acts 17:14-15) or perhaps when he went on to Corinth in September AD 51 (ref Acts 18:1). 2 Thessalonians is considered to have been written shortly afterward (maybe while Paul was still in Athens) in response to some eschatology questions in the assembly at Thessalonica.

Anyway, in our KJV it does say "...your faith groweth..." so it seems like it is possible for faith to develop and grow. Then preachers get to theorize on how to make that happen.

Re: Growing Faith
 

man I wish people would read what I say.... I never said you couldn't grow it... I said the only way to make faith increase is by the Word of God... according to the Scriptures. Exercising it, does not make it grow. I only find in the Word that Faith comes by hearing... faith only grows and is mulitplied by hearing the Word... by being in the Word...

Re: Growing Faith
 

It may not be specifically defined in scripture, but can you give a reason why it wouldn't grow your faith?

If one exercises their faith and God is faithful in return, why would one's faith NOT grow?

Would you not think that the woman with the issue of blood's faith would not increase after she was healed? If faith is the belief in things not seen or not known, is it still just a belief when they are proven? The woman had faith that if she could just touch the hem of his garment she would be healed. Did she KNOW for sure that she would be healed? No, she simply had faith that she would be. Only afterwards was that faith confirmed.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Unless the Word says it... you cannot make a doctrine out of it... that's simple exegesis and proper use of the Word. One cannot bring forth a teaching (doctrine) just because it sounds reasonable, logical or makes sense to them. But if you want to use reason and logic, I can go completely the opposite way as well and make a point. Do you not think that building faith is important to God? And don't you think He would include in His Word all the ways to build it and increase it and see it grow? And not just one, and make you guess the subtle inferences of the others? If God took time to tell us one way to grow it, He's tell us them all.

See how ludicrous it is to build a teaching off some kind of "doesn't it just make sense?" The Word is spiritual, not carnal... cannot be understood carnally or logically.

Lastly, the woman with the issue of blood would not be a good example, as she received the "word" from Jesus that she would be healed.... so faith did come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God... in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and was with God..... He declared to her that she was healed... it wasn't some prophet or teacher doing it... therefore, that's not a good example to prove your concept.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Here is the irony in your rebuttal.

One steppers use your very same argument to say that speaking in tongues is not a sign of the Holy Ghost infilling.

Maybe we need to start from scratch and ask the question; What is "faith" in God?

New thread?

Re: Growing Faith
 

That may be their argument, but doesn't stand up under exegesis. Your previous premise wouldn't even begin to be the same. There are examples in Scripture, numerous, where people were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. It actually says it.

However, you can't show me anywhere in Scripture where someone exercised their faith... and it says their faith increased, multiplied, etc. Apples and oranges...

Re: Growing Faith
 

1. The Lord Himself gave us insight in His response to His disciples' request for increased faith...go beyond the commands. In His eyes, if you only do that which is commanded you to do (ie, the written Word) then you are unprofitable servants (and that is all any are if there is only obedience to commands), but if you go beyond (ie, led by the Spirit), then you are no longer servants, but sons - in particular, sons of God.

Luke 17:5-7
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7a But which of you...

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

2. The writer of Hebrews connects exercising what you learn with spiritual growth, being able to bear more of the mysteries and revelations of the principles of the kingdom of God. Stong meat belongs to those "who by reason of use"...

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

3. Peter continues this reasoning by exhorting us that we should diligently add to our faith - beginning at faith but increasing. He that has these things is mature and fruitful, he that lacks these things is blind.

2 Peter 1:5-10
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

4. You want to increase your faith - hear it and do it.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Actually the account of the woman who was healed is an excellent example. It's also a good example of why there are multiple Gospels to compare. In Luke's account, it's the woman who declares to Jesus that she was healed by touching His garment, not the other way around. She knew she was healed because she stopped bleeding. Mark confirms this by recording that she knew what was done in her before she spoke with Jesus.

Luke 8:46-47
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him and how she was healed immediately.

Mark 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

However, what is really exciting about this is Matthew's account (Matthew 9:20-22), which by all indications lacks the detail of Mark and Luke's recording, but includes a very notable event based on the woman touching the hem of His garment:

Matthew 14:35-36
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Jesus' fame spread, but it wasn't the pure, written Word; it was only tales and accounts. Based on these tales and account alone, the men of Gannesaret believed that Jesus could do for them (chapter 14) what He did for the woman back in chapter 9; by touching the hem of His garment, they were made perfectly whole.

I guess that would be a third way to increase faith - increasing faith based on someone's testimony - as we can see very clearly from the account of the woman with the issue of blood.

Re: Growing Faith
 

You've given some great Bible study, but not proved where faith is increased any other way than by hearing and hearing by the Word. Jesus' fame being spread has nothing to do with people's faith increasing. And you still didn't prove it with the woman and the issue of blood... sorry, just doesn't prove it. Relationship may increase, belief may even increase... excitement... zeal... but not faith.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Nice; Amen. A tough step for a Western Christian.
I'm persuaded that growing faith is diff from getting faith,
even if they both essentially reduce to "hearing,"
which has little or nothing to do with your physical ears.

Re: Growing Faith
 

I'm surprised you would take this position.
Strangely, it is the insistence on "proof"
that is swaying me--I'm strongly disliking this
"ignore sense and trust proof" thing?
Smacks too much of how the very elect
might be deceived, imo.

2 Thess 1:3
New Living Translation (©2007)
Dear brothers and sisters, we can't help but thank God for you, because your faith is flourishing and your love for one another is growing.

English Standard Version (©2001)
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;

How was their faith increasing? They had no NT, and very few OT's?
Were they relying on spoken Word? Solely?

Re: Growing Faith
 

I agree. Western Christianity is in danger of becoming apathetic toward the kingdom of Jesus Christ. True discipleship requires rejecting the things of this world which will require great sacrifice on the part of the disciple. This is where it becomes difficult.

Getting Faith equals a response to hearing for the first time (ie hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, or listening to someone relate a testimony concerning a realized possibility within the kingdom). This is why I included a short side trip about the woman with the issue of blood and the men of Gannesaret. They heard about the woman's miracle, responded, and received healings of their own.

Growing Faith is exercising the faith you already have.

Hearing and doing is the way we grow.

I marvel at your response; either you are playing devil's advocate and being contentious as a means to provoke a discussion, or you're not actually seeking an answer and are dismissive of any of the scriptures posted. In either case, you're working very hard not to understand the responses given. Your constant referral to "hearing the Word" as the only means of growing faith shows a lack of understanding in what that truly means.

There are 3 outcomes that the Bible teaches about "hearing the Word" (and Word hear is specific to the Word of God - not testimonies or accounts):

1. Outright rejection - this leads to damnation
2. Hearing, acceptance, but no response - this leads to becoming dull of hearing and necessitates the need for foundational teaching to be repeated over and again. There is no forward progress and no growth.
3. Hearing, acceptance, and a response - this leads to our faith being increased and our ability to hear greater teachings and mysteries.

Jesus admonishing His disciples in Luke 17, and the passage in Hebrews 5 makes it very clear that "hearing the word" is not enough to increase your faith. Those that are hearers only are called weak, unskillful, and unprofitable servants.

Re: Growing Faith
 

There is no where in any of those accounts that says they received faith from hearing about the woman's miracle. One cannot receive "faith" or have their faith "increased" as the result of hearing testimonies. None of that story shows that. Furthermore, that's before Pentecost, so really your talking about faith for a different dispensation... you must use post Pentecost writings and accounts to show how someone in the Church Age increases their faith... which is where Paul's writing comes in... "faith cometh by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God....

Where in post Pentecost Scriptures does the Bible say that faith grows by exercising your faith? That is a name it, claim it, Word of Faith teaching... and not Biblical. It sounds good, preaches good, etc... but it's not Biblical for the New Testament Church.



So how is it that disagreeing with your assertions means I'm either playing devil's advocate, or not understanding? That's the epitome of condescention. I totally understand where your coming from, I just don't agree. Your last quote above all has to do with obedience of the Word.... not directly with faith. This thread... though you got off topic quite a bit... has to do with Faith, and how to grow faith. There is only way to "gain faith" other than the measure of faith given at conversion.... and that is by being in God's Word.

The principles of doing something with it after you've been in the Word go without saying... of course... becaue the Bible says that faith without works is dead!!!!!! Come on... that's the basics... the discussion was a higher level than that, assuming anyone who would even want to grow their faith is going to walk in obedience.

The biggest disagreement I had, where you came in and still didn't disprove.... is that exercising faith cannot grow faith.. and there are no NT Scriptures that teach it. Provide all the pre Pentecost antectdotal accounts you want... none say that someone's faith grew as a result... and there are no post Pentecost teachings that teach any other way to 'get faith' other than being in God's Word.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Ah, well then allow me to testify that my faith has been increased,
many times, by testimonies that reflected something in my "hearing."

Your def of "hearing" seems to be unnecessarily narrow here?
To what end?

Re: Growing Faith
 

To what end? Oh, just trying to be Biblical... just a little thing I try to do every now and then.....

And your faith wasn't increased... your confidence may have... your belief may have... your trust may have... your hope may have... but your faith wasn't... cause it don't line up with the Word.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Actually, if your definition of faith is consistent with Hebrews 11:1, then those of Gannesaret who received their miracle did demonstrate this. They didn't see the miracle, but hoped for the same.

Our very foundation is based on the teachings of the apostles (NT) and prophets (OT), Jesus Christ Himself the chief cornerstone.

Really? Name it and claim teaching? What utter garbage in an attempt to disregard a sincere response.

Post-Pentecost scriptures? You've completely ignored Hebrews 5 (by reason of use) which proves that you must use your faith in order to bear/hear more of the Word; however, you might be more comfortable with the apostle James:

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

It's not the disagreeing that I was in reference, it was that you were either ignoring the scriptures posted or you would simply wave your hand and reply nope, nope, nope.

Ah, you've stumbled onto an incredible mystery that many can say but don't fully understand. And it's not basic at all, it is the crux of the matter. Jesus, James, Paul, writer of Hebrews, Peter, et al, agree that if you want to grow your faith, increase your faith, or be able to bears the strong meat of the Word, you must do something with the Word that you've already heard.

Now, you've said over and again that no one has given you scripture, but I (as well as others) have given plenty. What do you say concerning Hebrews 5:12-14 and James 2:22?

Re: Growing Faith
 

James Chapter 2 is not talking about increasing faith, or growing faith... but how to keep your faith from being dead.... that works must accompany faith. No where in that entire chapter is it teaching on how to increase your faith. In Verse 22, the Greek word there for "faith made perfect" is that Abraham's faith was accomplished... not increased. So, in my study of James 2, has nothing to do with increasing or growing faith.

Hebrews 5 especially verses 12 - 14 has to do with being mature in Christ..., mature in your walk with God and the things of God... but says nothing about faith... or increasing your faith, or growing your faith...


NEXT!!!!!!

Re: Growing Faith
 

Bzzzztttt!!! Misinterpretation used...go back three square...return to study.

In James 2:22, the primary meaning of the Greek word used for "made perfect" is "to complete", from the root, meaning "growth to completeness". James is using Abraham as an example to make a point that only by putting faith into action can it be "made complete" or "perfected". The Greek word used for "faith" in this verse is the same word used in Luke 17:5 when the disciples asked the Lord to "increase our faith". It is referring the same thing.

If I understand the point you're trying to make ("faith increases only by hearing the Word"), then Hebrews 5:14 all the more applies, especially to your stance. Only those who "by reason of use" can bear the "strong meat" (which is specifically referring to "deeper principles of the word of God"); those who have not done anything with what they've heard are addressed in Hebrews 5:12-13, not even being able to bear the "first principles of the oracles of God".

James 2:22 and Hebrews 5:12-14 very much apply to this discussion, and both address faith.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Wow, I'm really surprised that this seems to be
such an issue with you? I'd like to wish that faith goes
from 0 right to 100%, just by acquiring hearing,
but experience tells me otherwise?

In fact, faith seems to ebb and flow, another thing I don't really get;
but reflected in other testimonies? I've been at, say, 60% (prolly more like 6%? Just throwing out a #), or "faith that caused other believers to spontaneously say Amen," and then a couple weeks later, reading the Word all the while, found my faith at 40%...

And since this...is, I'd like to illuminate that faith may not come by
reading the Bible everyday, even memorizing it--that is not what the verse says (ok, extreme case? maybe not; prolly commonly attempted)--

"Faith comes by hearing..."
and since that is obv not quite the def of "hearing"
we are used to, it remains to define "hearing"
(which has prolly been done here)
and go from there?

Having had hearing spiritually demonstrated to me,
many times now, I'm curious how this might fit in to your model,
which I'm still thinking we're somehow arguing semantics.

ps, but I will say the "NEXT" thing is troubling?
You are the final word here? The very worst frame of mind
from which to...proceed, lol.
Or attempt to proceed--this indicates a closed mind, imo.

Re: Growing Faith
 

It's saying that I and the other poster will never agree... no need to keep beating the horse when he already stinks. I aint gonna change my mind and neither are they.... call it a closed mind, narrow mind, whatever you want... but sometimes we just need to realize that further discussion does nothing but tare down and people just need to part ways agreeing that they see things differently.

I never said I was the final word.... nice way to assume things and put words in my mouth... but I am the final word when it comes to my continuing to attempt to help someone understand my point of view... I get to decide when I want to leave the discussion, just like you do.... the discussion can continue... absolutely... but I get to decide when I move on.... like we all do.

Re: Growing Faith
 

Bro. Robbins, I apologize for getting a bit contentious. I'm guilty of becoming too passionate about my own point of view and get carried away sometimes. I agree, we do see this differently.

Re: Growing Faith
 

You have nothing to apologize for... nothing at all.

Re: Growing Faith
 

In other words, agree to disagree.
Show your brothers and sisters the same respect you would want from them when you don't see things eye to eye.

Re: Growing Faith
 

I believe as one grows in grace and in their knowledge of the word they will grow in faith.

Re: Growing Faith
 

grow in faith? or faith will grow? not the same thing is it?

Re: Growing Faith
 

Ah, well; that is not sitting very well w/BR, I guess
Amen to that, as far as it goes? I posted my reaction, my opinion, to "NEXT,"
and got a reply. I leave it to (you), a witness to judge. Or, can we agree to disagree that satan is now our lord?

I'm sure I come off as abrasive to many here; and to that I would like to reply that when I want to be surrounded by people that whole-heartedly agree with me, I'll go to a bar and buy the house a round.

I would never go to...BR's or Falla's church, say, and start talking how my faith has grown outside of reading my Bible, or give my opinion about Reagan--but we are in a venue designed for airing just such issues.

While I see no reason to deliberately denigrate a person here,
and don't mean to do this--I deliberately reply to posts, and not people--if one is unconsciously identifying with their opinion (or in other words, if an alt opinion is going to offend you), then I would say you came to the right place!

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Better yet, 2 or 3.

Re: Growing Faith
 

I believe faith growing and growing in faith are the same things. And as one grows in their walk with God their faith walk will increase as well.

Re: Growing Faith
 

I had suspected we were actually having a semantics discussion, and tried the nicest way I knew to bring this up a couple pages ago. Can you explain the difference to us? as I have a feeling you have a point to make that has not been made, ty.

Re: Growing Faith
 

I disagree with you on that one brother...

Re: Growing Faith
 

I just asked an 8 year old; they are agreeing, and I am, too!
And if there is some disagreement here, some refinement
of semantics that might open up more faith for me,
I haven't heard it yet? But pray that I will be open to it.
BR?

Re: Growing Faith
 

I used to hear a radio preacher back in 1956 who said, "When fear knocks on the door, send faith to answer and you will find that there is nobody there."