Amish: Out of Order
 

Have you seen this show? It's about Amish people who switch over to the Pentecostal Church. The Pentecostal people appear to be very strict (long hair, dresses, no make-up, etc).

Hoovie, I'd really like your opinion on this program especially. But anyone else's is also welcome.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

apparently this is a weekly show. On National Geographic.

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My brother watches it.

You can see some here. http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...episode-guide/

I would be interested in knowing which episode you saw tonight.

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Maybe change of faith. I'll watch it.


... Looks like the video is not available yet.

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Did they mention "Pentecostal" ?

Most of this is filmed about 1 to 2 hrs from my home.
He said he went on a "road trip" and met some faith communities in IN and other states. I know there a good sized OP group in IN that dresses and lives like the Amish for the most part.

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The one's I saw were not Pentecostals, I thought they were Baptist.

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Apparently he met different people in separate episodes. Some may have been Pentecostals and I missed it.

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It's not about switching religions, it's about those that leave the order, and he is trying to help them adjust. And he wants to reconnect with his Mom, as he is pretty much being shunned. It's interesting to say the least.

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Hoovie, do Amish not believe Jesus is the Son of God?

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That is what I think. Perhaps that particular episode was about Pentecostal/Amish.

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Except a few, I don't think they are UPC though... I think the largest group that is OP, is associated with Branhamites.

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The episode I watched tonight was a repeat, but, he was with a man named Elmer Miller who was a Pentecostal Minister. It showed him witnessing to Mose and also showed Mose at a service. He said he was "touched" by the service and then went on to visit a "Charismatic" Faith Healer who is Ex-Amish.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

OK. Elmer Miller is (or at least was a few years ago) UPC. I met him about ten years ago.

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I happened to catch that episode last night. While the "Pentecostals" (UPC or not) were certainly treated with respect I can understand Mose's reluctance to help those attempting to escape the Amish culture get right back in with another which is also fairly closed to "the world", though not as much. In the end it was touching to watch him deal with some of his past demons.

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yep, that's the episode that I watched. They clearly identified them as Pentecostals, but never said UNITED Pentecostals.

They did end the show with Mose counseling with a Charismatic faith healer about the abuse he had endured under his Amish father. It's no wonder the poor man left like he did. I don't know that you could say it was because he was Amish as much as it was just because his father was plain old abusive. Beating a child until his blood runs down his legs and into his shoes is abuse and I don't what religion you are. That's just a fact!

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Here is more about Mose. He was in the cast of Amish in the city. And I have seen the other documentaries he talks about. http://amishinthecitymose.com/about/

He lives an hour North of us, in Columbia, MO where my wife lived when I met her, though I don't know that I ever met him.

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That is sick.

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Exactly! But that's what he said on the program happened to him as a child. People like that should be jailed - and I don't care what religion they are.

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Yes, he said his Dad was a very violent man. He went into details off camera, some of the other men were crying when they put the camera's back on. Makes me wonder if some of them knew his Dad.

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Abuse comes in many forms and walks among us all.

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that's so true, AYR. Isn't it sad tho that very often if someone who claims to have a very strong faith and strong connection with "whatever religion", the people that they abuse very often blame the religion or God Himself for the abuse. It's not usually the fault of the religion and it is certainly NEVER God's fault. Yet, people connect the abuser and their religion so strongly, that they blame both.

I say all of this very carefully and almost reluctantly because I've never been the victim of abuse. So I don't want to presume how I would react to it. Who knows? Maybe I would do the same thing? I hope not. And I think not. But it's not fair to judge someone else if you've never had to walk in their shoes.

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Margie, I have told you before that I love your signature line. :highfive

I've grown up in a fair amount of abuse. First physical, then emotional. How many of you, as a child, could exist living in your bed for a weekend, not being allowed to get out of bed for 48 hours except for meals and bathroom isolated in your upstairs bedroom. No lights, television, radio, toys, books, heat or air conditioning? All you would be allowed to do is to stare at the four walls. At night I would make up games with the car lights shining off the loft ceiling of my bedroom. Something...anything to occupy my mind. Sometimes I would look down the vent in the floor just to see some light. Sundays, I was made to dress and walk to church for the hour service, then after Sunday dinner back to bed for the rest of the day and night.

You could not talk and were afraid to ask to come downstairs to use the bathroom. And what if your abuser caught you looking out the window and added another 24 hours to your sentence of isolation and immobilization? I remember wetting my pants when I heard my abuser leaving the front door, then looking up at my window to see if I was out of bed looking outside. Or hear my abuser sneaking up the stairs to see if I was out of my bed. He had loud, nasal breathing and the old steps were creaky.

And how would you feel if you said the wrong thing or told a tiny lie because you know that same punishment is coming around the corner and you are hoping to get out of the coming 24-48 hours of silence, emotional torture? But he caught you and sentenced you to another weekend again?

What if you forgot to take off your good "school shoes" after school and accidentally scuffed them up and your punishment was to go to bed after supper without any lights on to get ready for the hated bed? These were just a few of the hundreds of possible infractions that will land you in your prison cell.

Oh and you could end up in bed earlier than your 8:30 pm bedtime if you were told to watch tee vee and you were looking around the living room instead.

My brother once had to stay in bed for 3 weeks straight. He was fisticuffed by the abuser. Had to write a repeated sentence 10 thousand times when he was thirteen years old.

Now, I am going to switch subjects for just a while.

I am of the opinion that most Christian denominations in this world start out pure in heart, on fire for the Lord and wanting to reach others with His love. But sometimes individuals come in and bring in the letter of the law and become abusive in some form or another...to some people and not to others. I don't understand why this is so in some cases. The only thing I can think of is that some people get a big rush on having "authority" and making people dance like puppets.

I am going to try to make this very plain, lest I get accused of generalizing my position. Most likely I will leave something out or somebody might get offended. It is not my intent to disparage, but sometimes it comes out that way.

My brother is one of those who blames God and religion. He proclaims himself an atheist and will not even talk about Jesus. Part of that comes from home, part from our upbringing in the RCC, and part of it is just him. I will not say anymore about that.

When I got old enough to get away from all of that, including the RC religion, I prayed to God, studied what I could understand from the Word, watched tee vee religious programs and felt the tug of the Holy Ghost to turn my life over to Him. All this happened over a period of about 5 years. I was running from myself and made some very unwise choices in my life. This damaged me. But I was what I thought was ...free! It wasn't until Christ made me free that i was truly free.

I went to a Baptist church and voiced my salvation. But I felt deep inside me that God had something more for me. I did not know what it was. I kept asking God. God sent a pentecostal lady my way to witness to me. I made the decision to start attending a UPC church. I waited on my baptism until I felt the UPC was the place to get baptized. I did not understand the importance of being baptized in Jesus Name, but I felt inside that it was God who led me there to be baptized and it was right. During and after baptism, I had extreme joy and happiness. However, the UPC standards of carnality started to creep in and subtle comments were made to me and about other people in my presence. I began to worry more about my appearance than I kept my eyes on Christ. I had no friends outside the church because it was frowned upon.

A church split happened over tithes and authority and an adulterous Pastor did not help at all.

I met my husband and after we married he wanted us to attend his church because of the upheaval in the church I attended. Being a newly married couple, we wanted stability and the church situation was very nasty.

My new church seemed fine for the first 2 years...until I had a difference in opinion about mixed race couples. I see no taboo in God's Word about people of different races marrying and attending church. If they are both in Christ, believe in Oneness and baptism in Jesus Name, then I counted them as brothers and sisters and I would welcome them to sit in the same pew I did, had any come to the church. Some did not see it that way. One person said that maybe God would lead them to get a divorce, if any mixed couples ever came to service. I thought that was one of the most ignorant statements I had ever heard from a Holy Ghost filled person and tried to tactfully say so.

I see no taboo about people of other races attending a historically all white church. That opinion got me into trouble. But that isn't the only opinion that got me shunned. :D

Perhaps I was naive in thinking that I could have an opinion, being female. I certainly learned a lesson. I will not get into anymore of the outrageous behavior I observed and felt in this church and a few more attempts to try to settle in other churches, but was talked about as soon as they found out I was visiting.

That is the expanse of 8 years of seeking, praying and hindering I witnessed in the UPC organized church system. This sort of stuff can hinder the spirit if one allows.

I do realize now that not all UPC churches are this dysfunctional since I've been here at AFF. I am somewhat jealous of those who have the privilege and honor of attending a kind, loving church with kind people. But I am happy that those of you who feel quite comfortable are happy where they are at.

Here it is in a nutshell for me. I said all of the above to give a little
background on what I know that I went through and that others go through the physical and emotional pain of abuse...and suffer in silence. While I found myself quite in solitude in the church system, especially after I tried to seek help from the leadership in my church over the past emotional torture I wanted to come to terms with and find peace. I know now that they were well under equipped in knowledge and Spirit to help me. They must have knew it too because they avoided me and I only ended up being more alone than ever... and probably because I was too intense for everybody else's comfort zone.

Never once though, did I ever feel to blame God for other people's inadequate ability to minister to me or for the abuse I had endured in my life. I don't blame God for people who cannot accept others who are different than they. There are some kind people in church and there are some abusive people in church. The kind ones are kind to my face, but never stood in the gap for me. I know that abusive people do not represent God in any way, shape or form.

My Jesus has visited me in ways that I feel so very fortunate despite the way things have turned out for me concerning the UPC organized church system.

Do I feel the need to return to a place where they do not feel they do any wrong? :nah

Do I press onwards in my walk, faith and belief in Christ? Yes! I am now approaching elderly age and am considered to be elderly by some now. :heeheehee

I say all of this now, not to knock the church system, although I have spits of frustrations from time to time. But I just want other people out there to appreciate God even if they are not in ideal situations. Abusive people do not represent God.

Sometimes it is a lonely life when you see pentecostals in the stores, the malls, downtown and many of them won't give you the time of day. It has been 23 years since I left this particular church and some still talk about me being a northerner and not fitting in, afraid that since I was a northerner, I would be bringing something into their church that they would never accept. This is what one of those pentecostal men told another person about me 23 years later, just last week to another person who discussed it with my husband. I've even endured finger-pointing at stores. This is continued persecution from someone who says that they are in Christ's church and cannot love someone who believes the same, but has different opinions about life in general. I don't believe anything spiritually different than he does, except maybe the standards, of which now their church does not even uphold any longer. Yet, I am still being accused 23 years later of bringing something into their church that they would not accept? He never said what that issue was, except that I am a northerner. The way I see it, they brought in whatever it was that they feared all by themselves since I had not been there all these years.

However, it is possible to still live your life for God even being persecuted by a brother or sister and even if you think that you are all alone, you are not. Christ is walking with us every second of every day.

Our God is a big and Just God. Bigger than any problem we may have or ever go through.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

Areyouready?, has this person who did this finally dead? If so, did they play "Ding Dong the witch is dead!" at his funeral? If not, they should have -or SHOULD when he DOES finally die.

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AreYouReady, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story with us. I know it is not easy to re-live all of that when you tell your life history. I am sooo, sooo sorry that you had to live thru what you had to endure.

I was talking to my friend the other day (who just happens to be a pediatrician, so she sees alot more than most of us!). We were talking about how when we grew up we didn't know anyone we could have said for sure was being abused at home. There were some who we would say that about now. But in those days, even abuse such as yours would have been considered "parental privilege". Today, if someone knew about that kind of stuff going on, it would get turned in to Children's Services and someone would investigate. I truly HOPE that that means that less children from this generation will have to grow up in abusive situations than did in the past. But on the other hand, I am appalled at how MANY children I know of today who are living in those kinds of conditions and even worse. I am dumbfounded by the number of girls I know personally who have been or are being sexually abused in their own homes. My heart weeps for what this world has come to. Has it always been this bad and I just lived a much protected life???

AYR, I'm thankful that you did not choose to blame God for what someone else did to you. He is truly the only One who has answers for your life. To blame Him would have been to put up a wall and not allowed Him to help you. Congratulations on making the far better choice.

Thank you again for sharing your story and being so open. We have a tendency to attack here on AFF when someone doesn't believe exactly like we do. Perhaps it would help alot if we knew more about where people have come from and what formed their belief systems. We might be more understanding, you think?

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Yes, he is dead. I think he was shell-shocked from the wars. He displayed a lot of military tactics in the way he dealt with us children.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

Thanks Margie. It's been a long time ago. You go through some rough spots in life, then it smooths out. You come to terms with it and move on, although you never fully forget the terror, the loneliness or the worthless feelings you had.
Growing up in poverty in addition to that causes some people to look down on you anyway.

And yes, our upbringing does play a large role in how we shape our belief system. That was one reason why I posted the story from back home about the young boy who was beaten to death by his father. They grew up in horrid conditions. I recognize that those conditions far surpass what happened to me and my siblings. I wonder how the brothers view of God will be shaped or if anybody will care if they walk into a church and does not think certain standards are even relatively important after all they've been through.



Working in the medical field, I have seen child abuse. I think it has always been here. I likewise think that back in the day it was considered "parental privilege". Nobody intervened.

Perhaps some things were considered taboo to talk about. One thing I remembered was my parents warning us not to tell anybody what goes on in the house. I learned during therapy that is a classic symptom of abuse issues in a home...constant warning and threats of harm if you tell. Of course children do not know that. And most children do not want to leave the only home they ever knew anyway while little. Many foster homes are no better.

Don't feel bad for living a protected life. I would that all people feel protected, loved by God and family. It is a blessing from God.

Abuse is nothing but a vicious circle. It happens because people do not know to learn to break the cycle. Relearning to do things differently is not an easy task. Learning about God was a totally satisfying experience even if some of the pentecostals never understood where I was coming from. I am fully aware that God does know and that is sufficient.


I made up my mind that I was not going to stifle my children till they do not want to be around me. I most certainly am not perfect, but I feel happy in that they are adults now and was not in a hurry to leave home at an early age. They want to be around us.

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Then you need to go to his grave site and write on his stone under the date of his death, "....and not soon enough!".

Honestly, going from this type of house to a conservative UPC church is one of the worst things that could have happened. To this day I do not blame GOD for anything that has happened to me, in fact I thank Him for all His blessings! But there are plenty of people who I would not, or have not, shed a tear when they gave their last breaths.

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Nobody that I know goes there. His entire immediate family left the state and never returned. Sad and I must be a little nuts to feel some compassion. Maybe it is forgiveness?

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Yeah...I found that out. Strict obedience at home growing up, then strict obedience to a pastor after growing up and becoming an adult did not mix well for me.

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Oh my. This resonates with me, "AreYouReady." I suffered a lot of stuff growing up...(many days being forced to stay in a dark,..closed closet,..etc. etc. etc. etc. (don't want to go into detail. Sent to children's home. ran away from chrildren's home. Wound up in upci bible college. Graduated. Wound up in abusive marriage,...etc. etc. (and so forth).

So I hear ya,..............(you are not alone).

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You mean a good pray'n through at a UPC alter didn't help?

(Sarcasm in full force. I never knew a good "pray'n through at a UPC alter" to help anyone.)

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Randy!! :foottap

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Memories are uncomfortable but my counselor told me the only way out of the fear and shame, (yes shame) was "through it". That was over 20 years ago and God helped me "through it".

It's not scary anymore, but I do understand that remembering those days when you start to deal with what happened to you, is almost like reliving those days once again.

Yeah...I left out many things in my little testimony there. But when one grows up in abuse, it's almost like one is an unwitting magnet for others to abuse.
I had to learn to recognize that and to recognize when people would manipulate conversations to get their way.

God gives us the wisdom to know the difference between true friendship and manipulation if we ask Him.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

Watched this show last night...REALLY interesting. I can't help but feel for Mose and those young folks..WOW.

I did see where one young Amish lady was going to be getting help from a local Pentecostal group, which had alot of ex-Amish in the assembly. I had some mixed feelings about that...mostly because it seems these folks who have been abused need to deal with that first before jumping in with both feet into another religious circle.

I know that sounds cynical...but seriously...why leave one barn because it is red only to find your dwelling in another barn that is blue....anotherwards, these people need to come to grips with why they want to leave the order FIRST. I can see why a pentecostal church would provide some sense of comfort, however, if the root cause of the separation is not dealt with she could end up having a repeat of experiences with the new "group"...

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I have watched the first 7 episodes of this. Really great show....The seventh episode really bothered me though because it is the one where the ex-Amish are going to the Pentecostal churches....it brought up some really negative feelings for me.

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The reason why praying through doesn't help much is because it is often the method a person clears the conscience instead of repenting. Many people are fooled into believing all is well when a person speaks in tongues. Praying through is not the magic bean that keeps someone from sinning.

There are people who frequently speak in tongues who don't live a Christ centered life.

Salvation is only a small part of God's plan for a believer. God wants people to be transformed into His image. God wants us to take on His characteristics.

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What is amazing to me is that I finally figured out after many years that a person can dress "right", be baptized in Jesus name and speak in tongues and NOT BE LIVING FOR GOD AT ALL!!!! These things prove nothing and they are the dividing line between the saved and the unsaved that the Pentecostals use. For me, I had a REAL experience with all of this so I assumed everyone else did too. Finally, I figured out that you don't have to have a real experience at all to be accepted into the Apostolic/Pentecostal church and that many DON'T! They just do what the preacher says and they are "in". Sad.

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When my mothers family came over here in the 1820's they were Amish. Then they became mennoite in the 1830's. They wre pastors and pastor wives.

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I watched this show one time, and I found it incredibly sad. The young people were drinking a LOT and cursing a lot and it just seemed like they were going to the extreme when they left the Amish church. The girls were dressed really risque and very immodest. It was like they didn't know how to reach a balance. They did attend a church in New York City though - a black Spirit filled group and they seemed to like it.

It did remind me of the way a lot of people act when they first leave UPC. It's like they swing over to the extremes and get goofy.

Re: Amish: Out of Order
 

Yeah, from one extreme to the other. And the decide to stay Amish or be "English".