Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

I have found that a lot of my OP friends are horrified that my oldest son chose to get a Ph.D and has delayed marriage in order to be able to do that.

My youngest graduated from the church school, which had terrible academics... (fortunately he was saved by the local community college dual credit program and got in to TAMU)... When I asked why they did not improve their program I was told that most the kids are either getting married or going to Bible College (which evidently has no standards either)...

Do others find that the church seems anti-education? Or is this just something in our locality?

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

The Christians I know value education and encourage their kids to continue their education.
Some encourage their children to go to Bible College.
Some are business people, and teach their children their trade.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

My experience has been the same, for the most part. However, I do feel there is a legitimate fear that a secular education can put a wedge between a person and God. Sometimes that does happen, especially if a young person's faith is already shaky or they are too ignorant to strongly oppose humanistic philosophy and reasoning. Colossians 2:8-10 comes to mind.

Some fields are more difficult than others for a Christian to pursue and still stand their ground. My oldest sister was a psych. major, and she recommends against the field for Christians. If you aren't persistent at filtering all human logic and philosophy through a biblical filter, you can get bogged down in confusion very quickly. Not only that, but post-graduate studies in particular often involve professors that are intolerant of Christian-based lines of thought because they view them as ignorant, damaging or both. To send a child into higher education unprepared for these obstacles is a dangerous thing indeed.

My take on it is that we should prepare our children for what they will face in the world; not stick our heads in the sand and hope they survive it all. I can certainly see, though, how many parents or pastors would feel intimidated by the prospect and choose to take a different course altogether.

Bottom line: I don't believe OPism is anti-intellectual. I do believe many OP's fear what they don't know or understand--like people tend to do in a variety of situations--and many of them respond by avoiding the situation completely.

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Almost all the Christians I have known since the 70's (mostly Charismatic/Pentecostals) who have went to College have fell away from Christ including my Daughter.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

There are many exceptions to the rule but overall I believe OP's are anti-intellectual and many do fall away whilst attending institutes of higher learning. I believe over riding reason is the ultra-shielding from society that many endured growing up as well as find that things may just be the way that pastor said they were. Imagine the shock of a older teen attending his first science class and learning that perhaps Ken Ham ISN'T the be-all and end-all of science and physics. Then their thinking goes "If my pastor and Ken Ham were wrong about the way chemistry and radiation work then what ELSE did pastor lie about?"

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And yet all the believers I know that attended College have fallen away from Christ. Most of them were not Oneness Pentecostal.

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That is funny because I know many Christians who obtained advanced degrees. Even my former pastor before moving to Arizona got his Masters in Counseling and education and now teaches (when he's not pastoring). Just like my last post though I can imagine a church where the young people are so sheltered and their only experience with science is what they hear on Christian radio on Sat morning that they are completely unprepared for the real world. I CAN imagine 'everyone' from a such a church falling away when they hit college.

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My Pastor has a law degree, along with a Degree from Bible College.

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Now that gives a whole new meaning to "legalism from the pulpit" :heeheehee

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:smack

Ken who?

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Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis.

Oh. That guy.

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No. The answer to the topic is NO. There are lots of UPCers with PHd. Yes there are a lot of stupid and uneducated Oneness folks but Oneness Pentecostalism and anti-intellectualism are not synonymous

Congratulations to you and your son! We encourage education at our church

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Thanks.

Something besides a Doctor of Divinity from Urshan Prax?

Serious question.... I mean none of our kids (400+ member church) has any degree except my son who will have a BS in computer science engineering in Dec and one girl who got a BS in nursing a few years back. Some of the kids play around a little in junior college... but bible college is the only thing taken seriously... Or bridal college if for a girl :)

When kids don't marry by 21 there are all kinds of unkind things said... even homosexuality is sometimes rumored. Maybe I live somewhere scary bad but I would have thought it more common.

And I thought Bro. Bernard was the only UPCI preacher with a Juris Doctorate.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

There are lots of teaching degrees in our church. Several tradesmen, several men in business for themselves (including my husband), etc. I know a few (OP) doctors, one of my daughter's best friends is in pre-med. I think Bible school is a legitimate course for anyone wanting to go into ministry. Oldest girl wants to go into missions, so that's where she'll be headed unless she changes her mind. Anyone who goes to Bible school should go into it with their eyes open, knowing that their effort won't be usable in multiple fields or transferrable to secular colleges.

The fact that something isn't transferrable to a secular college doesn't mean a whole lot of anything--except that. It isn't a measure of the quality of the education or the commitment of kids who attend there. It's more indicative of the fact that Bible Colleges want to maintain control of their curriculum and instructors. IF a person is going into ministry full-time and they want to devote 4 years of their life preparing for that in a godly, prayerful, consecrated atmosphere, that is in no way an inferior choice to someone pursuing education in a different field at a secular college. It can, however, be the wrong choice for some people, and all higher education decisions should be made carefully. I have a friend who attends IBC and is also part of the student body leadership and he said that by the second year (sometimes the second semester of the freshman year) they've pretty much lost all the students who aren't serious about the ministry. IOW, just like in any other field, the process itself will filter out those who should be elsewhere doing other things.

All that said: I don't agree that OP's are anti-intellectual. I think a lot of conservatives, including secular conservatives, are suspicious of the current education system from the ground up. Some are so fearful that they discourage people from getting involved in the secular system, and while I don't agree with that approach, I do understand it. Some are ignorant and fear what they don't know. A few may want to maintain ignorance because they don't want to be questioned or have their teachings analyzed. In our church, education is encouraged and practiced, but careful and prayerful consideration of educational decisions is also encouraged. Not all children need a secular degree or even a college degree of any sort. Some can pursue trades, go into business for themselves or pursue ministry.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

My sister uses this term all the time. It always grates on my nerves, so let me respond as gracefully as possible. :D It depends on the kid, frankly. My daughter is planning to go into missions, and we've actually discussed with her the idea that she will do better in ministry if she either remains single or marries a like minded person. (scripture ref. used - the one about a woman who is single caring for the things of the Lord, and a married woman caring for the things of the world and how she might please her husband) However, if some girl does want to go to Bible college for a year or two for the sole purpose of finding a Christian husband, that's perfectly acceptable and even respectable. I find it odd that so many people find that something to deride. Some women do just want to settle down, love and support their husband, have babies and keep house. I know it isn't popular or cool, but it's still a very honorable vocation for ANY woman to choose. I agree that it's nice to have a backup plan, but that doesn't have to happen young. I have a friend who is married with 2 kids who is getting her teaching degree. My sister got her degree after her boys were grown. It is more difficult after you have children, but not impossible.

Not around here. People start to wonder if they're "okay" or if they'll ever marry once they dip into their 30's, though... :D The dating pool does shrink considerably and exponentially as you get older.

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Okay, last comments for awhile--I've got other things to do!!!! LOL!!!

It's important to remember that while we do want to change the climate and encourage higher education, we don't have to prove anything to anyone. I'm not going to push my kids into college or post-graduate studies so I can prove to the secular world that we are into whatever they're into and that we are smart and we still love Jesus. Kwim? It might prove the point, but it wouldn't be acting with the best interest of each individual child in mind. Something else to consider is that those who make up the church are already interested in ministry and outreach and have created a culture of people who are interested in the same. Therefore, it should be common and acceptable within OP ranks for children to choose these vocations over secular vocations.

Again, there is nothing wrong with any child choosing a secular education and career. However, they shouldn't be pushed into those vocations above ministerial pursuits anymore than they should be pushed into ministry.

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a doctorate from where ever in whatever field of study is good including theology.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Oh was not knocking bible college if that was how it came across... we actually discussed it with our youngest but he really did not feel a call to ministry in the traditional sense. So we financially supported another kid from our church who was having trouble making tuition and expenses at TBC.

I was just surprised that my son's choice did not seem respected by many and the idea that getting an education would lead him into sin was a completely new concept to me... I feel like if they have not got it for themselves by that age keeping them at home is not going to really going to be the difference... Realizing I'm generalizing and that some kids do need the extra time... but I felt like I knew my kid.

Glad to hear that this is not everywhere... or not so much any more... we are kind of backwards here.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

:thumbsup

I'm surprised that the choice wasn't respected--but not all that surprised, if you know what I mean.

In fairness, I am aware of places that are backward enough to be suspicious of anyone who doesn't go to work at the local sawmill or grocery store and get married by the ripe old age of 21ish. :) The Missouri hills, boothill, NC, and AR mountain country come to mind.

As an aside, congratulations on having a child who is pursuing a Ph.D. You must be (should be) a very proud Mama, to have raised a son who loves learning and is committed and steady enough to make that kind of degree a reality. :)

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Some are, some aren't.
Certainly the 40 Homeschoolers that spent the day at my home today aren't anti intellectuals. Most of the adults were professionals, several with degrees and one with a doctorate in Biblical Languages.

I don't see that there is a greater tendancy for OPs to be anti intellectual than are other Christians, though I know some certainly are.

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I have lots of friends that are in Bible College. I know nearly ever person that attends CLC in Stockton, CA.

They all agree. Bible College is for those that feel called into the ministry, this is the main purpose.

If a person doesn't feel called into ministry, I encourage them to do what they feel the Lord wants them to do. :)

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Where I am from we were not allowed to attend bible college because "there's nothing you will learn at bible college that you can't learn at your home church" coming from a pastor that said he preaches at a 6th grade level so everyone can understand.

It was never the will of God for anyone to move away to attend college. You attended the community college in the next county over. If you attended university you made the 75 minute commute one way.

Good times.

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We have been very fortunate. Our local community college system is excellent and actually allowed my youngest to transfer with 46 completed hours that applied to his degree from dual credit and summers. TAMU is less than 2 hours away so while he lives in the dorm he is able to come home weekends without much fuss and we can be there in a flash if he is sick or has car trouble, etc.

The environment is a good one as the school places a lot of emphasis on honor and personal responsibility. It is also a place where he can learn to make choices for himself. His grades, his willingness to be available for us on the farm when needed, his speech and demeanor and the fact that he still has a prayer life and cares about the things of God all reassure me that we made the right choice.

God does not have any grandchildren, each person has to accept salvation for themselves and I think college is a great place to make sure that's in place. I have found plenty of people who do not agree with me one bit however.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

couple of years ago, at a upci general conference. not for sure thinking it was houston texas, could be wrong. They had a lady there. ( and the name excapes me) but she is the head guru of sunday school and teen learning.

the message one would think would be about christian education was not really what was given. It was more about preserving. isolating,

She said that if there is kids mixing with you kids even in your local assembly that dont believe exactly the way we do they need to be cut off. This was even as going to the lengths of trying to have all kids removed from any type of secular education.

i would call this a type of brain washing myself. was sorta extreme in my book.

However this type of mentality does exist. but i think its probably isolated to certain areas, I dont think this is the way every church runs there assembly.

You wil have both people on different sides of the fence making valid points and both can be extreme.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

I have never observed OPism being anti-intellectual.
I would say that the roots of the Apostolic movement in the South Central and Southern parts of the country were among the very poor.
These individuals were not highly educated and had a distrust for those who were.
This led to their mindset of not wanting or needing higher education.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Christianity is anti-intellectual on some levels.

I have seen what you are talking about first hand though, in OP cirlces.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

According to the US Census, only about 10% of Americans have a Master's degree or higher. Nearly 20% have a Bachelor's degree. That leaves 70% of the population who range somewhere between high school dropout or graduate, some college but no degree, and Associate's degree.

It's probably unfair to level this at OP's in particular. If these statistics are accurate, then the OP's I know are statistically MORE educated than their secular counterparts.

The Census breakdown by race is interesting (but not surprising): (percent of populations by race that are a "College Graduate or More")

2010 - 30.3% of the white population, 19.8% of the black population, 13.9% of the Hispanic population and a whopping 52.4% of the Asian/Pacific Islander population.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

At the same time, there are more OP's that feel the need to ask their Pastor's permission to do many things.

My husband was actually encouraged to drop out of Community College when he was a young man, which he did. He spent 30 years doing hard labor at the local factory and he put up with a good bit of abuse. Don't get me wrong, it put food on the table and we lived tight, especially when this company had the tendency to send people home when they "forgot" to order the materials they needed, or some other such things happened that were beyond their control as it sometimes is in a factory.

However, had the Pastor counseled him to stay in school, change his major for a more viable career, he would have received more tithe money than he did when we payed tithes on a factory income. :lol

I encouraged...no fought with one of my sons for him to continue on to higher education after high school so that he would not be stuck in a dead end job. He now values that he went through although he absolutely hated going to school.

My other son just graduated from the University with a BS degree in Biochemistry and is going on to professional school. Both my boys have gone to public school all their lives. I think how they live for God, but not always, depends on parental involvement. Many parents leave Bible teachings to the church, which in my opinion is a very bad idea. When my children came home telling me about something they have been taught at school or what some other child did or said to them, we counseled them accordingly. I've made a many trips to the school for their defense over unjust problems. It happens even in the church.

Both my husband and I believe that family comes first. That the father of the children has any say over any pastor, especially if what the Pastor says cannot be scripturally proven. And we have found in many cases, it is just a matter of being a control issue and not scripturally sound on the pastor's part.

So...each region is different. Each family needs to not delegate their responsibilities to any other man but to pray as a family for the things necessary to earn a living in this world.

Incidentally, after we left UPC, we had many criticisms from other members that we did not bring our children to UPC church. Some said that they were "worried" about our children. My husband asked those people who were worried, what about YOUR children? The answer was that no...they did not come to church like they should. Or others came to church, but they lived "like the world". Yet others kept the standards and came to church every time the doors opened but had babies out of wedlock.

Perhaps we as families would be better off if we just mind our own household and leave others alone except to pray for them.
__________________

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Hi:

In my experience, Oneness pentecostals in general aren't any more or less anti-education or anti-intellectual than any other faith group really (although there are pockets of lower income people in the ghettoes/inner cities and I guess in very rural poor areas that are). However, OPs seem to be very underrepresented in areas such as the arts and literature. If they are going for advanced degrees, they are gravitating towards more conservative and practical professions such as education, computers, business/accounting, health care and the sciences. I suppose that this is because of the practicalities of these careers. OPs aren't getting a lot of MFA degrees or degrees in psych.

I honestly think that the media and some trinitarian groups promote anti-Oneness/anti-apostolic ideas/sentiments and paint OPs and Pentecostals in general as uneducated reactionaries. And I also think that some of this is rooted in bad blood (almost like an outgrowth of a Hatfields and the Mccoys type feud, like someone was done wrong by someone in some church situation and like Cain, has been taken over by a root of bitterness that has festered and grown into a demonically inspired movement against the church.)

One more thing I've noticed is that people who view school as a place to get career training tend to go in and do just that, regardless of their religious beliefs. If they do get a higher degree, it tends to be for career reasons. Then there are those who find deep meaning and identity in being a student or of just pursuing knowledge for its own sake or as an answer to the deep questions of life. These persons, I have noticed, tend to be anti-fundamental religion: not just Christianity, but all conservative religion.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

Opie-ism?

I dunno... but Fife-ism... definitely anti-intellectual!

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The North Little Rock church gives scholarships to almost all of their graduates who attend college.
I want to say that it is all, but I am not certain.

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OPs can be anti-intelectual. Certainly in some pockets more than others. There are parts of East Texas that can be narrowly focused.... LOL...

There are other areas where it is expected that kids will just go to college. When I was at McNeese in Lake Charles, there were tons of OPs. It was a great place. There are a lot of churches in that area where the culture is that you simply go to college. period.

But yea. There are pockets where the thinking remains get married at 18, work construction or some such and have babies. It is just weird to me.

My kids will grow up with a basic understanding that they arent done with school until they have college degrees.

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Will you try to steer their interests, or are you open to them pursuing what they want as far a college/career?

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I am sure all of Ferd's kids WILL get that theology degree from a fully accredited <snicker> UPC Bible college. They will NOT have a choice -The ogre!

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That's the tact we have taken, too. Also, we have told our girls that if they go to Bible College, it's important to get a degree in something else, too--as a back up plan. (Thanks to Rhoni for driving that point home with me. It may be the only point she ever persuaded me of. :D)

Personally, I don't think kids at 18 should be making firm decisions about their career (e.g., which degree they need). It's best to work on core curriculum and decide on specifics gradually as they are exposed to different interests and find out more about themselves and their abilities.

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The prudent parents will watch what their child's interests are in...what they excel in academically while starting in middle school and high school. It is important that they excel in certain academics before graduating high school and have a general idea of interest in a career.

This way if they want to move on to a professional school after college, their chances of being accepted is greater if it can be shown that this is what they have been working towards since high school.

I know my son applied for a very competitive post graduate professional school, was accepted, and it was because of his interest since high school in the profession.

Re: Is OPism anti-intellectual?
 

And this is how I feel about marriage. One barely even knows themselves at 18 or 19 years old... Knowing how to fit together a life with another person is exponentially harder than deciding about career.

A career choice can be changed... a dear friend of mine was just accepted into medical schoool after teaching elementry school for 17 years. Not that she did not love teaching but she missed her opertunity for medicial school and took an easier education degree when she married and got pregnant. In four short years she will be a doctor at the tender age of 45.

I am glad to see so many here that plan for their kids to go to college.