The Trouble With Apostolics is...
 

The movement was founded on experience and feeling instead of solid Bible exegesis.

The movement has historically given entirely too much authority to pastors, which has led to rampant spiritual abuse.

The movement doesn't have a consistent doctrine concerning justification, nor does it attempt to understand this beautiful Bible cornerstone.

The movement loves standards of holiness more than the spirit of holiness.

The movement is all about visible measurements instead of inner purity.

The movement exists solely as a counter-Christian enterprise, and does not seriously attempt to evangelize the world.

The movement assumes the world knows the Bible, and rejects it.

The movement eats its own.

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Other than that, it's fine? :lol

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It's D.O.A.

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You are painting with way too broad a brush. These are problems which exist among some Apostolics but there is a lot of diversity among Apostolics.

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Yeah...but for some there is a large measure of truth in what he says. :rolleyes2

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I agree that the brush is painted broad, but there is no doubt that there is truth to all of his statements in some measure....

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Then why spend any time here, on an Apostolic forum?

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Imo, I do not think it is D.O.A. but it can use some cardiac massage and breath of fresh air...

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One of the biggest problems the Apostolic movement has is bitter, ex apostolics like Charnock.

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This^^^

I agree...

I disagree...

Cardiac massage is a little extreme, but fresh air isn't enough - especially for those that preach against it.

There needs to be a change in our culture, where Jesus is the focus and heartbeat. Everything will flow from that.

And no, I'm not saying ditch standards to do it.

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Broad brush? Yes, I agree there, even while I can see some truth in the first post.

The primary issue we face is recognizing and acknowledging that we have and fight the same battles as other Christians do too.

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for something more positive about the church, check out my post from a couple of months ago at
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=39494

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This is my post that I referenced above.

It was titled "I Believe in the Church"

This is an email I sent out to a lot of people back in January of this year. I've been thinking about some of the things that were said and I thought I would share this with AFF.


I believe in the Church -- God’s Church, the Body of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ or whatever you may know it by. Jesus called it “My Church” and “the Church” and promised to “build up” or "edify" it. So Jesus Christ has a Church -- His Church -- and many of us are privileged to be a part of it. I’m tired of hearing people knock it, criticize it, or act like their tiny part of it is the whole thing. I’m tired of people thinking that it is irrelevant or that it is failing or losing the battle. I’m proud to be a part of it.



I saw some inspiring words on Facebook by a young pastor that I respect very highly. He ministers in California and I would like to pass his words on. He gave me permission to share this.



I still believe in a church where grace is real and not just a song, where Peter can deny Christ with vulgarities and his ministry still be received, even better than ever, just weeks later as the featured speaker the day the church was birthed. I still believe in a church that celebrates the meth addict, the single mom, and the pregnant teen even if the Luke 15 older brother is pissed off about it. I still believe in a church that can buck the trend of 90%+ of American church growth resulting from people changing churches, and instead, proclaim that, like Jesus, we are here not for the whole but for the sick. I still believe in a church that desires to make disciples, not republicans, and I still believe in a church that is a spiritual emergency room, not a business enterprise. I still believe in a church that will be raised up out of the culture rather than secluded from culture, and I'm absolutely convinced that "The Church" despite the fact that my most agonizing moments in life are a result of it, is the most wonderful living organism on the face of the earth. I refuse to believe in the word "hopeless". I refuse to believe in the word "Impossible." I refuse to believe that I cannot stand on the rock upon which Christ will build His Church, a church that impacts culture so much that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it.

Re: The Trouble With Apostolics is...
 

:eek:

Sounds like somethin Gene Scott would have said...

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Maybe try writing something positive....

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Sam, you are a great man of God. I wish that there were many more just like you in the church.

And I am not talking about any one sect.

You don't agree?

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Totally wrong. It actually brought the doctrine of the Apostles concerning the new birth and the oneness of God into clear focus.

Totally false. Apostolics are the only Churches on Earth who teach justification in line with the Apostles.

Some truth to this. On the other hand some Apostolics are given to heart purity.

Again false. Tho I am nobody I have preached by way of radio in 6 nations. By way of internet I cant say how many. I have presented the name of Jesus to thousands of people in the communities where I have lived.

By saying this I am just demonstrating that there are Apostolics who have done what they could to reach souls. I am just one example.

As to America its a fair assumption. We cant give up on young people they have NOT had their chance yet many of them.

Somewhat true. They put me out long ago over wearing a beard, a watch and short sleeves. Not because I was flaunting my liberty but just for thinking I had it. I dont feel very welcome where I am trying to go to Church even now.

They have followed Protestant tradition making one man rule a tenant of faith. Most other groups are the same way with the same results.

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I can find plenty of holes in some "modern day apostolic legalistic teaching", but his list is unnecessary, 100% negative, and what exactly is the purpose? He should atleast find positive things to say as well, as there is positive things too. Maybe read Phil. 4:8 a few times...

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The Movement is NOT monolithic. Sorry but whiny sweeping generalizations are boring

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Well, let's go ahead and take these one at a time.
1. The movement was founded on experience and feeling instead of solid Bible exegesis.
Without experiencing God, His love, His mercy, and his divine judgment, how can one have a true relationship with God? Yes, we are based on experience, an Acts 2 revival experience, just like the apostles experienced it. What we are experiencing is the Holy Ghost within us, which is God within us, working in our lives.
2. The movement has historically given entirely too much authority to pastors, which has led to rampant spiritual abuse.
While I admit SOME pastors take this authority and abuse it in ways not becoming of a true Christian, at the same time, did not Paul have full authority over the church of Corinth? When they started to misbehave, did he not chasten them? Did not God speak through him to fix the problems which came about? Tell me, how is Paul any different from a modern day pastor, who is doing the work of God?
3. The movement doesn't have a consistent doctrine concerning justification, nor does it attempt to understand this beautiful Bible cornerstone.
Before I attempt to comment on this one, I'd like to hear your thoughts and theories on exactly what justification means.
4. The movement is all about visible measurements instead of inner purity.
Sir, I'd like to ask you to think out the box for a second. Don't group one or two churches you've had a certain experience in with every single Apostolic Pentecostal church on the planet. I invite you to attend a true Spirit filled revival service, and let the feelings of that revival, the spirit of God, the gifts of the spirit, and that wonderful feeling of the Holy Ghost, completely envelop you. Then tell me if you mind a few simple standards that help brothers and sisters stay away from sin bother you so very much. I think once you've had that Apostolic Pentecostal experience, you won't be thinking very much about not wearing a few pieces of jewelry. Also, I challenge you to find a church that doesn't have a judgmental spirit about you. If you care to private message me, I'd love to invite you to my church.
5. The movement is all about visible measurements instead of inner purity.
This I have to disagree with. Until your temple is pure, you cannot begin to accept God fully into yourself. Until you are free from sin, you cannot begin to grow in the spirit. There are some that come to an Apostolic Pentecostal church, that stay for years and still live in sin. There are two types that do this. Those that are honestly trying, but are still bound, and those that live on the fence, love their sin and don't care to come out of it, but think they're ok because they're coming to church. The first type are trying, probably as hard as they know how, and I believe God honors every single effort made. The second type, sadly stay in their situation, and usually die in it. The only thing that can be done for them is prayer and fasting. But I believe the right amount of both can break the yoke of any bondage, no matter how great. We serve an awesome God who specializes in the impossible.
6. The movement exists solely as a counter-Christian enterprise, and does not seriously attempt to evangelize the world.
I ask you here. to look into the cases of evangelists. They move from state to state, sometimes country to country, spreading the Word of the Lord. Oftentimes they leave from where they came with nothing on their backs but the clothes they're wearing. Sometimes with a few dollars gas money to get to the next area they're preaching in. Do they not evangelize the world? I ask you to look into the true saints, who knock door to door, telling people who sometimes know nothing at all about God's grace and mercy, oftentimes desperate people at the end of their ropes. Do they not evangelize the world? And lastly, I ask you to look into the case of missionaries. They drop everything they're doing, leave everything they've worked for financially, give up their entire worldly lives, to do God's work. They go to countries that are impoverished, countries that have nothing, to tell people who really and truely know not of God, and what he is able to do in their lives. Sir, do they not evangelize the world?
7. The movement assumes the world knows the Bible, and rejects it.
You are quite mistaken there. We believe the world knows NOT of the bible. We believe the world knows NOT of God. We believe the world is trying to fill voids in their lives that nothing can fill, short of the glory of God working in their lives. We believe some religions twist and pervert the gospel, to suit their own desires. And we believe that the saddest thing that can happen is to have the Word of God, right there in front of them, and not know what to do with it.
8. The movement eats its own.
Again, you are grouping. Let me give you an example in another sense. Some Catholic priests have been convicted of juvenile rape. Therefore, all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Right? Of course not. One bad church does not make all churches bad. I sincerely hope you give pentecost another chance, and not let one experience of one church, or one or two churches, completely turn you off from the whole movement. You most certainly will be in my prayers tonight.

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To be completely honest, I think this post was made to see what people have to say about it. I think this was said to be heard, and nothing more. I believe the OP is watching what everyone is saying, and has no plans to respond.

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This bitter, sad attack is against the forum rules, and paints with a broad brush.

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I just don't understand folks that want to come on a forum
and have such negative things to write about.

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Reminds me of an old saying..."The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence". Many folks who have experienced hurt tend to be overtly negative...it goes with the territory. Having said that, what amazes me is that some people believe that some of the issues that are discussed on this forum about apostolic churches are only present in those churches / organizations.

Seriously, human beings are involved in all manner of denominations and religious persuasions, and with that comes all the issues etc. etc. At the end of the day, keep your eyes on Christ, not the storm...walk with Him, be responsible for yourself, and your family. Do what you know to do and quit worrying about what everyone else does or does not do.

There is a whole lot more good and right about the Apostolic church then wrong and negative...stop letting the bad eat the good...

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:nod

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thus is it a phsycological study?

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If you could present these truths in a way that encourages introspection and change then maybe something good will come of it.

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Let me translate.

The UPCI doesnt agree with Charnock ergo the UPCI is all kinds of messed up.

My friend (and you are my friend) the UPCI is in the midst of serious growing pains but I disagree with you.

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I think in addition to this is the consistent message that Apostolics are better than other Christians because Apostolics have the "right" doctrines. It is constantly preached that Apostolics are better and holier and the only ones going to heaven........that is why there is such a shock when Apostolics have and fight the same battles especially battles of morality.

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Bingo.

Also, my quick classification of Apostolic would define the thread starter as one himself. I believe he baptizes by invoking the name of Jesus, and believes speaking in tongues are current practice for the New Testament. Without nuancing into finer points that is "Apostolic" to me.

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David Hartman:

"A monolithic framework does not create a critical mind. Where there is only one self-evident truth, nothing ever gets challenged and no sparks of creativity ever get generated. The strength of America has always been its ability to challenge its own truths by presenting alternative possibilities. That forces you to justify your own ideas, and that competition of ideas is what creates excellence".

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it wasn't Gene Scott. I don't know who Gene Scott is.
The person who wrote that is a member here but hasn't posted for a while.
(He's not UPC. He left over the Affirmation Statement).

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What are "other Christians" Hoovie? Are they like my brother from another mother? Stepchildren? What about one faith, one spirit?

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Where I'm from we call that trolling... just sayin'.

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In the sense I was using it, "other Christians" is a reference to non OP/Apostolic Christians.

In other words, even though we may have a heightened experience or understanding of scripture, we have the similar deficiencies and struggles that are common to men and other Christians.

Not saying we should celebrate that. But just acknowledging it will go a long way in humility and transparency of our movement.

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I don't think so... He has had some serious challenges and this thread is showing some of his thought pattern right now...

They are not foreign to questions I have asked myself at times. I would only refrain from the monolithic assumption.

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Then what good, in your opinion, is that heightened experience or understanding of scripture, if that indeed exists?

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It's been tried. When being cordial and respective they still rip into you. You're bitter, disillusional, backslid. Hard to find intellectual honesty on their side.

Re: The Trouble With Apostolics is...
 

The trouble with apostolics... The definition is too vague to make a golden calf from it...