My Story
 

Before I left UPCI SOCAL district (wont mention any names because we know some of the same people) I thought my name was Jezebel Spirit. I was told that because I was being disobedient to the man of God that I would suffer greatly. I was told by other members of the Church not to touch the Lords anointed and that the ground will swallow me and that I needed to repent at the altar. I have to be honest I waited for death and destruction to show up on my door step. I had sermons preached about me and to me and even after we departed the sermon series on spiritual authority continued we had friends that told us thanks a lot for the heavy handed preaching.

The final straw was when we had to stand up and apologize to the entire church, youth and all for going against authority. We were left at the altar as a bloody mess with little concern for our souls. All we did was get married without approval we were told that the pastors will decide when we could get married please and understand we were both in our 40's. We were active members of our respective churches I was the men's leader and was being groomed for bigger things and my wife was on the platform singing specials. We were both serving our local church hard!

It was then we decided the time was now to get out so we met with the pastor the next Sunday morning and we informed him of our decision to leave his church, he was hot and told me that in prayer that God told him to just let us go. We went to a little AOG church that very morning during that very service there was tongues and interpretation and during this interpretation the word came forth that He Himself had set us free from the shackles and bonds and that He has made our path straight and I thought to myself how can God show up here they don't know the truth. Also during our church hunt we went to this church plant that had 5 people and we were 2 of the 5. The pastor looked at me and told me that God would speak to me today but in my head I am like whatever your just trying to grow a church and your wife wears pants. Worship started and the Holy Ghost fell and caused me to bend over and weep uncontrollably it was at this time He told me that He was not well pleased and that none of what we went through were by His hand and that He would he would deal with them in a Godly manner that I would never understand because they love Him.

My dad is still in UPC and has been from the H Richard Hall days. To him I am his backslidden son who would have better off have never tasting the riches of God. He is getting soft in his old age because he asks me once and awhile how was church. I know that like a few here at AFF he thinks that I attend the Temple of Baal with a doctrine of demons. I respect that because I will always know where I stand, I don't agree but I respect.

Someone here on the forums said that other certain Pentecostal church members need to go a little further down the rabbit hole. For the record snakes have been known live rabbit holes.

Today I don't put my hope in manmade interpretation of scriptures because that's all doctrine is but instead I put on my blessed hope and know that mercy triumphs judgment and God desires mercy over sacrifice. It has been a long bloody battle and I have to scars to prove it as do most people that leave a certain oneness organization.

In His Name!

Mike

Re: My Story
 

My brother, I'm so sorry, so very sorry that you went through what you describe here. There is absolutely no call for anyone to act that way in the name of Christ.

I'm about as conservative as it gets, but I find no where in Scripture that provides the pastor any kind of authority to tell people when and when not to get married. The Scriptures teach us that the five fold ministry is there for the perfecting, or equipping of the saints. The purpose of a shepherd is to feed, teach, mend, and strengthen the sheep... but he can never direct every single step and think he can keep them from ever stumbling.

God called us into ministry to teach, reprove, edify, build.... and equip. It's the pastor's job to bring the Word forth, and equip you to actually think for yourself and work out your own relationship with God in fear and trembling. Of course they are there for further advice if needed, but he must let you walk, and perhaps even fall. I set the table, but I can't dictate what gets done with what I place out there... Grace is about people having the chance to even make different decisions than I would for them.

Of course, pastors are to come to us in love and compassion if we are caught in sin, but there are no scriptures that give a pastor the kind of authority you note within your post.... that right there is a man operating in fear, and his only way to control the fear is to control the people... and that's not what he's been called to do.

I will continue to lift you up in prayer, and pray that God sends you someone in your life that will be able to fulfill the true directive of the five fold ministry, and that will love on you, care for you, guide you, challenge you... and yes, allow you to even mess up... all the while being in your corner praying you succeed in Jesus.

I also pray for this pastor you mention... that somehow, they will see the freedom there could be in their ministry if they get back to shepherding. That somehow they will see there doesn't have to be any compromise of principles or standards by allowing people to grow, walk at their own speed, and learn from mistakes.

Re: My Story
 

Although I am saddened by the pain "navy" has experienced, I love this sort of thread and the responses they always receive.

Those that have been freed (thousands) relate to the story.

Those who are still a part of the old way respond to these stories by saying things like "well, I am conservative but have never seen or heard of anything like this."

And I laugh. There are thousands (yes, thousands) of these stories on AFF, but you have never seen or heard of anything like this before?

You've never seen or heard of anything like this in your own real-life circle?

Navy, if I were you I would thank God EVERY DAY that you have been rescued.

Re: My Story
 

I am so sorry for your sadness, and the horrible mess that you and your wife have had to go through.

Re: My Story
 

How long ago was that? Most churches, and I'd even say all, in the So Cal District are VERY moderate and progressive. That would never happen in my circle of churches

Re: My Story
 

BTW I assume you meant Southern California? I noticed you are in Florida?

Re: My Story
 

We have been out almost 6 years now and we moved to Jacksonville a couple of years ago.

Re: My Story
 

I'm not so far away from Jacksonville. It's a nice city!

Re: My Story
 

In a way, aren't you glad that you and your wife went through this?

Re: My Story
 

Jermyn thats funny because my wife and I talk about that very thing, it just shows over again that God uses all things to the good, but not all things good!

Re: My Story
 

It takes a storm to be able to see the rainbow clearly, and that is how I look at the storms we have been through. The rainbow made all the clouds worthwhile, and I recognize that same spirit in your post. Praise God for what He has done in your life! I can certainly relate to your experiences with a heavy-handed ministry. Thankful that the Lord has seen fit to bring you out, into better things. :)

Re: My Story
 

It's wonderful that you and your family were able to separate your love for God from the way you were being treated by those representing the church. Many "abused" church members give up on God too, because to them the local church and God are one and the same thing.

It may be impossible to not resent how you were treated, but it appears that you have done a good job of moving on. Keep the faith!

Re: My Story
 

Most people who love God and leave churches that have a stronghold on them [over the people] know that it is God who brought them out.

Re: My Story
 

So are you still Oneness as to the Godhead? By the way doctrine is not just mens interpretation. Doctrine is the teaching of the words of God. Of course it must be rightly divided. We are to study to show ourselves APPROVED TO GOD. It is important to him that we walk in truth. When men disagree with him that should get us riled.

Re: My Story
 

Michael I am not sure how I would describe myself as the Godhead is concerned. I don't believe in 3 gods if that's what you're asking. I do believe in the Oneness of God. I have also settled in the fact that if I don't fully understand the Godhead it's Ok because the created will never know as much as the creator.

As far as doctrine one day God Himself will sort out doctrine and we all maybe a little surprised who we see seated and who is not at the wedding feast.

Re: My Story
 

It took me a little while to settle on the same thing Navygoat. I consider myself Oneness, but I also recognize that "trinitarians" do not believe in three "separate" Gods. They believe that the three are one.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is One. I think "trinitarians" believe that too.

Re: My Story
 

We haven't been out as long as you but your story is by no means unique in our experience.

Glad to find you among those who have been able to separate God from the muck and mire.

Re: My Story
 

The surprise is going to be in how few actually ARE there. Jesus said FEW there be that find the way to life. That will be the surprise. As far as escaping a heavy handed false leadership Im happy for you.

I have seen as heavy handed leadership among Trins as I have among Oneness so it might be good to think in terms perhaps your search is not over.

Re: My Story
 

Got this off wiki and it pretty much sums up trinitarians

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις):[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial"

I, as a oneness apostolic pentecostal, do not believe in three co-equal, co-eternal beings. It's not even supported in Scripture.

One God, His name is Jesus Christ.

Re: My Story
 

This is true. It's amazing what a few hundred miles do. I'm currently in the Western District of the UPCI and we are about as conservative as it gets. Take a trip down a few hours and you get cut hair, make-up, and light shows in the sanctuary.

I find that his experience to be a very unique one considering how "progressive" and liberal upc churches are down there.

Re: My Story
 

By the way, navy, my comment regarding the rabbit hole, if you read it in context, was directed toward the AOG organization in regards to stance on doctrine and the godhead...

I'm sorry for your experience. Seems like this kind of stuff is happening more and more in our circles.

Horrible.

Re: My Story
 

Sorry Joe, but Wiki is not a reliable source. I do not think that most people think of God in the terms of being three separate and distinct persons. Not even with the same definition in their own declarations of faith do I think most people believe that.

I do however, think that if any of the leadership who say that they do not believe in three Gods have any guts, they would ditch that definition and redefine what they think God is.

I think a lot of man's theology is deliberate to confuse people.

God is a Spirit. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit and Jesus is incarnate and I don't know any "trinitarian" who will dispute that.

Re: My Story
 

I know a pastor in your district that is very good friends with my old pastor and they are cut from the same cloth. Both raised in the faith by some very old school "my way or your going to hell" types.

Re: My Story
 

I believe it.

Re: My Story
 

I'm a conservative UPC'er, but I have to say it's went on for a long time. With the advent of the Net it's coming out more and more. I've just been lucky that I haven't been pastored by such people. Shepards are supposed to trim the sheep, not skin them. You skin them they can't grow hair.

Re: My Story
 

Exactly! I'm very fortunate to have the Pastor that I have now.

The dude can pull me in the office, chastise me, correct me and rebuke me on things, yet still make me feel like a million bucks when I walk outta there.

The man is a Pastoral genius in my opinion.

Re: My Story
 

I served 25 years in the US Navy and have been a man in authority and a man under authority so get being corrected or rebuked I understand and to me that shows concern for my soul but the trying to control someone is not cool or biblical. Just because your first name is Pastor.

Re: My Story
 

I believe many people who believe the doctrine would go back if they weren't already "skinned" and filleted.

Re: My Story
 

Yes, you are fortunate. Very fortunate.

Be careful though. God may call your pastor to a different location...maybe even into missions. You may get another pastor that is not as kind or has as much charisma as he.

Re: My Story
 

When I left It was not because I got this devine revelation of the "truth" I really thought God hated me and that He was a hard taskmaster who was only waiting for me to commit the just right sin so that He turn me into burnt ash. It was with some very loving pastors who cared more about being my friend and loving me than screaming at me over the pulpit. They started showing me the love of God expressed. It was then that I started to belive again that He does love me.

Some pastors act as if they won't have to give an account. I often think that my old pastor thinks that he will stand next to Jesus with his around the shoulder of God while he fills in Jesus about me or that he will be in the special preacher room when he has to give account. We both will be on our face giving an account.

Re: My Story
 

No matter what I did...it was never enough. There was always a roving eye watching me...waiting for me to slip up.

I got to believing one wrong word in conversation..one hangnail...one expressed feeling brought the whole church down on me.

Re: My Story
 

I do not think that God means for us to live like that.

Re: My Story
 

I don't think so either, He said that He came so that we can have life and life more abundantly and when we make mistakes He has given us Grace.

I can never go back.

Re: My Story
 

True, for every Samuel the leads the country there may be a Saul out there.

Re: My Story
 

This is why our faith must never be pinned in and around a man and his ministry.... whenever I hear anyone lauding the praises of another man too much.... I worry... because it is so easy for us humans to get caught up in human worship, it comes so natural to us, and it is easy for us to be terribly hurt and thrown under the bus in bad situations just because we have placed our faith in a man instead of in the Lord Jesus.

One must always be on guard against any form of idolatry, including worship of other godly, wonderful, amazing human beings....

No one ... and I mean NO ONE, NO MAN, should ever be so high in our esteem that Jesus has been put into the backseat of our lives.

Just thought I would add that in fact I do believe that there are godly, wonderful shepherds and men who truly care for their flock, and have given themselves to the gospel, even as Paul had. Praise God for those Samuel's among the Saul's... as indeed the Saul's in ministry are far more prevalent, than the Samuel's.

Re: My Story
 

If my Pastor goes anywhere, it'll be to heaven lol. He's 76 and already done his missions work overseas.

Now that I think of it, I'm still waiting to see the six documentary films he made :O.

Re: My Story
 

Uh, women in our church don't wear makeup unless they are visitors or new converts. Same with cut hair and no light shows.

Re: My Story
 

Very well then. If he goes to heaven, you will still get another pastor regardless. :nod

My hope is that your next pastor won't be like what some of us had.

Re: My Story
 

These situations are so dead to me in terms of effecting how my view of God and His church that I actually welcome them now for pure entertainment. I would stick around a church with an abusive pastor just long enough to mess with his mind and to plant enough in his little pea brain head to keep him up every night worrying about the vast "left wing conspiracy!" that the devil has against him.

Meanwhile, I'll be sleeping like a baby (and laughing all the way to the bank!). :)

Re: My Story
 

I wouldn't sit under a pastor like some of you have had, to be honest...