Military Service
 

How do you feel about Christians serving in military service. Does the believe have a right to take another human life under any circumstance?

Re: Military Service
 

Don't get me started!

People try to act like the New Testament somehow makes a just killing wrong when the truth is that God's moral law has never changed.

One of the 10 commandments is not to kill yet the Children of Israel killed an awful lot of people under God's blessing and direction.

Clearly there are distinctions between murder and just killing such as serving to enforce the laws of a country as a policeman or a country's security interests by being a soldier.

Re: Military Service
 

It's not an easy question unless one is convinced they are serving under a theocratic system.

At the minimum the killing has to be "just". For some the question is easy when serving a country like the US. But what about serving a country (and killing on their behalf) that is run by Al Qaeda?

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That would be a question for Allah!

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Or someone who tries to take the life of me or my wife, in our own home, at 2 am.

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My father was never right in his thinking after serving two wars. Innocent people that governments call "collateral damage" die. I think that is what affected him the most.

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Funny. The only examples you can find are in the O.T.

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American armed forces aren't as "just" as you assume... come to think of it, neither is the American government and it's foreign policy. Where were those weapons of mass destruction that Iraq supposedly had?

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The New Testament never supports any type of killing in this current dispensation. We see a shift from God establishing an earthly kingdom through Israel to now establishing a spiritual kingdom through His church. Why don't you give me a scirptural definition or example, relevent to this dispensation, of a "just killing"?

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When God's wrath falls on the antichrist system and we fight in the final last day battle, killing will be just. At this current time are we not commanded to preach the Gospel to all the world? I hardly think killing another human being has anyhing to do with preaching the Gospel.

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Why would God allow the first Gentile to be filled with the Holy Ghost to be a military man?

Re: Military Service
 

Luke 12:39 and Matt. 25:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

You cannot find any evidence in the NT that killing or murder was accepted. For when Peter tried to cut the ear off the soldier, Jesus put it back on, and told him to put his sword up. You can find no other mention in the NT about standing up to the political system of the day, at all, other than the two verses I mention above.

So I think that as long as we are defending our home, and our families, it seems that it would be okay to take defensive action, if there is no other way.

Regarding defending one's country, again, as you see all throughout the OT that is expected of a man, but in the NT, there is no mention of any of the apostles, or disciples of Jesus defending Israel or partaking in any kind of Roman army position or opposition.

So, the rational thing to conclude would be that Jesus ushered in a new kingdom of love at Calvary, and that meant loving your enemies, and doing good to those that despitefully used you; yet according to the two scriptures above, it does seem that protecting your home, and those you love against the thief and robber were expected of a man.

Re: Military Service
 

When did Jesus command the Centurion to get out of the military-- before or after he healed his daughter?

Re: Military Service
 

Excellent Q. When did He ask the Centurion if
he knew the Lord, or what he thought about
the state of his eternal soul?

Christ started a revolution in that Centurion's life
in His action; He didn't need to say anything, imo.
Had the Centurion asked how to become a follower,
one may contrast His answer with ours in the present day:
"Count the cost."

Re: Military Service
 

Well I for one am not willing to add to the Bible.
What's your answer for Cornelius' conversion?
Why didn't God send an angel to tell Cornelius to get out of the military?

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It's okay for an AMERICAN CHRISTIAN to kill an IRANIAN CHRISTIAN when AMERICA is engaged in a war against IRAQ.

Re: Military Service
 

please. and then you woke up. tell me that was TIC.

"What's your answer for Cornelius' conversion?
Why didn't God send an angel to tell Cornelius to get out of the military?"

Well, w/the understanding that my answer is a guess:
Because that is what a human would do, but to God,
manifested in Christ, that is completely unnecessary.
My guess is that the Centurion saw his daughter in every
subsequent foe--however, this was OT, and war was a fact of life?

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I am sure both combatants will have a laugh about it when they meet in heaven. :) (No sarcasm intended.)

Wow.

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For the record, this was TIC...

Re: Military Service
 

Who wouldn't think that was TIC TGBTG?

Your point is...a brother killing another brother in another country when the NT does not sanction this.

Re: Military Service
 

This really cuts to the heart of the matter, though. I am personally quite conflicted in this question. I was raised pacifist, and now I refer to myself as something of a "recovering pacifist"... so don't tempt me! :nod

Re: Military Service
 

I figured that was TIC, T; but after all the
"it will be ok to kill during the final battle"
fantasy...

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If pacifist would have had their way there would not be a United States of America today. We would most likely would be speaking German.

It is interesting to study our history and just what a pacifist nation we were prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I had always assumed that since we were such a large productive nation that when WWII started we would have had one of the largest and best equipped armies.

The truth is we did not. Nations much smaller than us were much better equipped militarily. What saved our collective butts was that once we realized we could no longer be pacifists we were able to turn the mighty engine or free enterprise and capitalsim towards equipping ourselves and our allies. Combine that with the American sense of justice and self sacrifice to protect our freedom and we had both the equipment and men to turn the tide against Nazi Germany and it's axis partners Japan and Italy (although it is hard to believe Italians were involved!).

Re: Military Service
 

This assumes that God cares about
one's "Country," or--to put it another way--
who one chooses to show fealty to,
other than God.

Um, the "pacifist" thing, after
Manifest Destiny, is just too rich, btw.
("Why are you hitting your head with a hammer?"
"Because my head hurts.") :toofunny

Re: Military Service
 

Oh, and the "We defeated Nazi's"
is frankly, given the overwhelming evidence,
just too sad to comment on.
Search "project paper clip," if you will,
or better yet, read The Rise of the Fourth Reich.
It's not even a conspiracy.

I'm just too floored to even crack the obv jokes here;
this is really sad to me, as I suspect you rep the prevailing opinion.
Yikes.

You do realize that the US is the largest arms dealer on the planet?
Do you really imagine, fantasize, that we are in the right, somehow, as a nation?
How do people delude themselves so thoroughly, with all the evidence
smacking them in the face?

Re: Military Service
 

Now I get how the Truth will make one "mute."
Please ignore my childish snarkiness, if you will,
and at least explore how you might be deceived;
at worst, you will have decided I am deluded--and,
just maybe, your mind might be changed on a couple of those ideas.

Re: Military Service
 

I would encourage any and every believer to get out of military service as soon as their obligations are met. The current command structure of our military is ungodly and probably illegal.

Neither John Baptist, Jesus, nor the apostles ever commanded soldiers serving in the military to lay down their arms. They instead taught them to do the right thing and not abuse anyone.

Many Christians are and have been pacifists (including many Pentecostals, at least in the early days). But the idea of 'jus causus' is valid and biblical, I believe.

I would not resist with force anyone trying to persecute me personally because of my faith in Christ.

But I have ZERO PROBLEM blowing away ANYONE who would do violence to my family.

Am I wrong? I don't think so. I see that not providing for one's family is equivalent to apostasy, and makes one no different than an infidel (and thus subject to eternal damnation). And providing for your family's safety and defense is part of 'providing for your family' as far as I can tell.

Abraham whupped some butt to rescue Lot from foreign captors, gave the loot to Melchizedek, and did so by faith.

Many saints by faith 'put to flight armies of aliens', and many saints by faith 'refused deliverance'. It comes down to your faith.

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The Old Testament was revered as 'the Word of God' by the apostles.

Just because the New COVENANT made the Old COVENANT obsolete, doesn't mean the New TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES made the Old TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES obsolete.

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Haha...Maybe the non-pacifists can help me out on this one.

Re: Military Service
 

Syria.

Re: Military Service
 

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The only country to ever use weapons of mass destruction on another nation is the United States of America. Bush and Rumsfeld have both publicly stated that a 'mistake' was made on the issue. The point is that it's extremely naive to think that a serviceman for the United States of America is serving a 'more just' cause than a serviceman for any other country. The notion in itself is actually quite laughable.

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What was the position of the early church for the first 200 or so years of Christianity?

Re: Military Service
 

I think it is laughable for any civillian to think they "know" all the operations procedures and motivations behind them.

There is no doubt that America as a whole has lost her way on many moral and ethical fronts, but I have no doubt that without a strong military we will be at the mercy of those who would like nothing more then to wipe this country off the world map.

Re: Military Service
 

"when I defend myself, I am attacked."

Hmm, what should one do with a country that has
as a whole has lost her way on many moral and ethical fronts, hmm...
all that remains, of course, is to raise a finger (from the mire, lol) and
point it sanctimoniously at some enemy; Muslims, perhaps, or gays-
-maybe the French :lol

Maybe Republicans will save us :toofunny

Re: Military Service
 

"All these kingdoms You see before You are mine,
to do with as I will..."

I think the motivations, at least, are pretty clear?

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Just stay home on your cozy church pews while others go fight for your rights. I have heard of one well known apostolic preacher that did this during WWII while my dad and his brothers and my uncles all served.