Do you AGREE?
 

I HEARD IT SAID during a teaching that the common denominator among those that turned charismatic was bitterness. Do you agree? Why or why not...and of course our opinion of what charismatic is will vary...

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And may I add most of us that have been in ministry for any time KNOW we will all get hurt and we KNOW bitterness is a terrible monster that only makes wounds deeper and destroys...Our family was deeply hurt some time ago but all during the ordeal I prayed not to become bitter. I knew becoming bitter would only destroy my soul.

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I disagree with the bitterness part. I think at some point in time some people start to question what they are told over the pulpit and what is actually written in the Bible.

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Some would even argue it's the catalyst for most... I'm not sure if it's the reason... but sure is one of the main things packed away in all their baggage they take with them.

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But, on another note....I also think that there are Oneness churches who lost their first love. It is better to leave loveless churches than to stay and become bitter.

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Unless you've became bitter and left a church, how would you even know what is in the minds of people who leave?

Or is it just a handy excuse a preacher might use to explain why somebody leaves?

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How do you know I haven't???? How do you also know what has transpired in hundreds of hours of pastoral and ministerial counseling over the years? How do you know what has been shared with me by folks of churches I've ministered in since I preach in both very, very conservative churches as well as churches that many would consider charismatic? How do you know that I haven't been bitter and left a church and labeled charismatic?

You don't... so don't go assuming things until you've asked some questions and really know.

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:yourock

Personally, I think it would be natural to be bitter about being taught doctrines of men over the Word of God.

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I don't. So would you say that all people leave a church out of bitterness because you may have done so?

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Let me give my humble opinion (based on my limited personal experience) on this subject.

I think that Hard Core Ultra Con preaching that was legalistic, divisive, controlling, and verging on cultish, drove some to look for more compassionate ground.

But, once you pull up the anchor and start drifting in search of something that doesn’t crush your spirit, you can be in danger of being lost at sea.

So here we are precious ones, some firmly anchored on higher ground, some ship wrecked and sifting thru the ruins, some drifting and looking for the light house.

Anyone remember this song:

Captain please ride my capsized vessel
Don’t let me drift out any further from shore
Search out the rocks that threaten to break me
Don’t let me wonder out, alone anymore.
When I first started out
I thought it fair sailing
in no time at all
my ship hit the storm
I barely can make out, your form on the shoreline
I'm asking for help Lord, save my soul from harm.

I don't think I have the words right, and I can't remember who sang it, but it's on my heart atm.

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Ok.

How do you know that people just didn't agree with your 'pastoral and ministerial counseling' and left and you decided they became bitter and left?

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I don't want to demonize any specific organization. However, I came out of a very legalistic organization that was only teaching believers to be conformed into the image and likeness of the organization and not the image and likeness of Jesus Christ Himself. Sadly, these individuals will stand before God one day shaped only by their religion. They will be STERILING Pentecostal members of this organization. Sadly... this organization isn't the Kingdom of Heaven.

I love many members of this organization. But I had to abandon it all for the sake of having Jesus.

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You really should work on your reading comprehension... and quit assuming things.... you're trying to make it sound as if I used some broad brush and said that everyone that leaves is bitter... I didn't. So, though it does seem to be one of your favorite past times to sit and twist the words of others... back off making my words say anything other than they did. Unless you can discuss items based on what someone actually posts.... your attempt to start an argument so you can bash yet another conservative preacher is an effort in futility.

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wow, you really can't read can you?

Pastor and ministerial counseling isn't me telling them to do something... come on, surely your smarter than that. These are situations where they have left other places of ministry... I meet them after the fact, or maybe they came to my church after the fact... and they are hurt... very hurt. They desire to sit down and talk about it. It's me listening, not advising or trying to set them straight... it's me listening.... them telling me their story that has nothing to do with me.

Would be nice if you would just read the actual words posted and not put something in between the lines or assumes it says something more than it does at face value.

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It would be natural, but unproductive wouldn't ya think?

I grew up in false doctrine. I became a member of Oneness Pentecostal churches. They both taught doctrines of men outside of Biblical principles.

Of course when I left both churches, I was .... as some would want to put it...bitter.;)

I learned to rely on Christ and the Holy Ghost to teach me Biblical doctrine because men want to make Christ's church to be a corporation instead of His bride.

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You sound like the bitter person....and you say this same thing to almost everybody who disagrees with you.:dogpat

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If you actually posted all what you wrote here... well maybe I would just read the actual words posted and not put something between the lines or assumes it says something more than it does at face value. :dogpat

But....you didn't.

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I guess it could be both, some are and some aren't. But as we all know what's inside eventually comes out. I also believe some lose trust and even turn away from God. That is the sad part about following men instead of Christ. I hope most are still living for God and are not bitter.

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No. I think it's part of the process. Like grief. There are stages. Anyone who has lost a significant period of their lives serving traditions of men and human organizations while being told they were serving Christ need to be bitter for a period. Then they have to reconcile themselves with their current understanding without spinning out into crazy living. After this they have to begin the discovery, finding what they truly believe and what is truly in the Bible. Then they can find their rest in Christ Jesus alone.

I don't think anyone would leave with a smile on their face skipping along happy about wasted years, time, and money. Not to mention... all the family they may be leaving behind that THEY WON to the insanity... who now disown them.

Good! You should have been bitter with righteous indignation. Just don't settle there. There is a point where the hard feelings must be set aside.

BINGO! Welcome to the Kingdom. :)

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It is heart breaking. My ex-wife told me that she's now an atheist. :(

The things we experienced in church caused her to turn her back on the very notion of God.

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You know why? Cause out of the 7 forums I am a member of, this one is notorious for people reading more into a post than what the person says. Many posters in this forum, which you are majorly one of, think because someone sounds a lot like, and sees things a lot like some other folks in your past, that you can take all their vileness, nastiness, issues, bad history, negative experiences, and characteristics.... and apply them to me as well.

You think because there are similarities, you can take your broad brush and paint it all over me, when I didn't say or do what they did. I have absolutely no bitterness... but I'm not going to be all nicety nice, play patty cake with someone who will be as so disrespectful to even read what I actually post... but rather just try to pounce on me with their snarky, poisonous, vitriole.

I've been accused of being too black and white and too plain about some things... but you know what? many of you that have such negative connotations and associations from your past because someone that was conservative Oneness did you wrong... maybe even quite a few of them did you wrong... you believe you can put us all in the same box... when I've never pastored you, never preached to you, and never had a relationship with you. That is the worst of all legalism right there... because someone fits part of the characteristics and has some similarities, their guilty of someone else's crimes.

The very tolerance of which you folks who have been "free'd" from that bondage seem to want from the more conservative is a luxury your not even willing to at first offer. Seems to me that the conservative Oneness churches of which you bemoan and begrudge aren't holding a monopoly on hypocrisy.

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HA... so your reading between the lines... assuming things someone didn't post, and just making up things that aren't represented in the post is somehow my fault... LOL... that's rich. Anybody else you'd like to blame for any other mistakes you've made... how about your mother? Did she not change you fast enough? Or maybe someone at work looked at your wrong and that made you stump your toe? Absolute absurdity.

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Bitterness? Nah. Just comes down to personal preference, IMO. ;)

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No, I don't agree. I think anyone who believes the Acts 2:38 message will practically kill themselves holding to it, no matter the cost. Most of the time a change in belief is why people leave.

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WOW! Such vitriol coming from someone who claims to receive it from others. Does that make you feel better?

How did you take my question to you so personally?

The topic of this thread is bitterness. I would think that you did 'broad brush' by implying that bitterness is one of the main things or reasons packed away in all their baggage they take with them. You posted it. Now you are denying that you broad brushed people that leave? And now you want to project your disrespect onto me?

I'd say you are the one who has the problem man.


What if I reword my question to you to be ...Unless one becomes bitter and left a church, how would one even know what is in the minds of people who leave?

Perhaps when replying to your posts, one should totally disengage themselves from having any direct post referring to you at all? Would that suit you? :bigbaby

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I think that the absurdity is in your reaction C. Todd Robbins. You are going overboard.:nod

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:toofunny

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When I left the Oneness Pentecostals, it was after much soul-searching, prayer, fasting, counsel and reading of the Word to ensure that the difference that I perceived in what I now believe and what I used to believe was really there.


I have some experiences that I could allow myself to be bitter over, but stuff happens and there isn't one Christian denomination or organization that is perfect.

I know what I believe and I know why I left-- even though I miss them.

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Boy...I just went to a Charismatic church because I realized one day that I had heard everything the Baptists had to teach me...and I had Pentecostal relatives :toofunny

Follows Timmy...

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A fair response, but am not quite sure how your follow up response to AreYouReady? warrants this:

http://files.sharenator.com/hissing_...314-184028.jpg

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Bitterness was not the reason we left the UPC. We left because after being a part of many, many different churches in the apostolic realm, from conservative to more liberal, because we began to see a pattern emerge in each church that we were tired of. The Lord began to lead us out of those "Babylon" churches into a place of deeper fellowship with Him.

So the reason we left the mainstream apostolic church system, was because of the Word and the Spirit leading us to something greater than we could ever have known being a part of a man made system.

But I know for a fact that bitterness has prohibited many of my family members who have left the apostolic movement as a whole to become bitter, and disillusioned, and to lose all faith in God at all. That is very, very saddening to me.

I am so thankful that our relationship with the Lord has grown, and matured beyond anything we were able to be as a part of traditional oneness churches.

Bitterness is a terrible enemy of the cross, and it can be found in all of us, if we give in to a "pity party" feeling, and feel that we have been so wronged, that even the cross is unable to bring us back into focus.

The only way to resolve the bitterness and turmoil of heart that comes from being terribley wronged in the house of your friends, is to focus your life back on the cross, and Calvary. It is the only way.

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You make a good point here. I haven't made the connection with 'grief and bitterness' as something to recover from. But you are right in the aspect that when something you believed in that was told to you pops like a balloon, it's like a "death" that needs to be grieved. But there are many pastors who would not look at it in this fashion.

So...some, who does not know what the one who is leaving is thinking might call it bitterness, but in fact, it may be more of a grieving process?

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You know I have a friend that is of mixed racial heritage and he gets defensive too when I try to tell him that fried okra is not that healthy in large quantities.

:dogkiss

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This is a very key distinction. I do believe that the latter is far more common.

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You mistake correction for vitriol. I'm sure it's probably not the first time you've done that.

That question would be much more appropriately worded, absolutely. And unless one is operating in the gift of discernment, they won't know unless they have asked, counselled, ministered to, and listened to that person. My response is totally reflective of only those I've spoken with directly regarding such a situation...

In your case... that would not only suit me, be appropriate, and appreciated.... but would be one of the most wonderful gifts I've been given today!!!!!!!

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AYR - have you noticed each time you get involved in a conversation with Bro. Robbins, and you exhibit a different point of view that his, that he can't handle a discussion with differing points of view without becoming vitrolic and hateful in his accusations, and responses?

I believe Bro. Robbins means well.. and is trying deperately to make his point.... but I personally don't desire to debate someone who cannot have a discussion without throwing accusations such as (you can't read) and so on into the discussion.

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When they don't read what I wrote... and misrepresent it... then I have to go through my list of questions as to why it seems one particular poster has difficulty in reading what I posted and taking it without adding to it or filling in between the lines.

My first question is to ask if they by some chance have a reading disability that prohibits them from seeing plain English... the next questions to ask are things like...are you just slow? Did you maybe hit your head today and that has blurred your vision?

And believe me... no vitriol here at all... just plain spoken... that's all.

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Bro. Robbins... I really respect you Bro.! You are obviously so sincere, and desiring to be pleasing to God. But... whether intentional or not... sometimes you come across just a bit rough across the edges... or something to that effect ;)

I think we agree on more than we disagree on... just iron sharpening iron here....

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The church of Jesus Christ could learn a lot by being rough across the edges... I'm tired of mamby pamby, limp wristed, panty-waisted, don't want to offend anybody, looking for a back bone, bowing the knee to public opinion, asking permission to live for Christ, Christians I see the Pentecostal church filled with. Our apathy, lack of letting our yes be yes and no be no is the very reason our nation is in the trouble it's in today. We've been so willing to compromise to get along that our whole existence is in the middle of every single road we can find...

It's time that the Church be radical in our Compassion, Radical in Our Zeal, Radical in our Anquish over Lost Souls going to Hell, Radical in our desire to die out to sin, radical in our pursuit for Jesus, radical in our stand for Truth, and radical in our not being mistaken for which we stand. The church needs to develop a thick skin, and move forth as the mighty army we've been called to be....