Glorying In Sin
 

It seems that among the AFF crowd here (and those with AFF roots who post primarly on FB) that there is almost a glorying in sin. A glorying in NOT being perfect and being at least a little worldly. These people tend to come across as condenscending towards those who seek to be seperated from the world.

Now listen, I'm not claiming to be perfect, in fact if I say that I have no sin, I make God a liar. I do sin, but I hate it. I don't just say "well nobodies perfect" or "don't judge me just because I sin differently than you", i.e. don't talk about my sin and I won't talk about yours. But my prayer is that God would continue the work of sanctification in my life, to open my eyes to my sin so that I recognize it, repent of it, and discontinue it. I want to live holy. Not just more good than bad, or know enough to be saved and then partake in things that are not beneficial because I am versed in the doctrines of grace. I pray that God will help me to live a life completely (not mostly) pleasing to Him. But I confess to sometimes feeling in the minority, and it can be slightly discouraging at times.

Why don't we care about true holiness anymore? Because many were hoodwinked and abused by authoratarian preachers who overstepped their biblical bounds and used the doctrine of seperation as a rod to beat the sheep? I'm the first to admit that many standards don't have solid (if any) biblical support, especially in the way they are presented (as laws, not principles). I'm the first to admit that most teaching on standards crosses the line and becomes legalism and salvation by works. I believe tha Pauls word in the latter half of Colossians 2 and latter part of 1 Timothy 1 apply to those who confidently assert what they do not know, desiring to be teachers of the law, and in doing so teach things which have the appearence of holiness in man made religion and denying the flesh, but also that the same things are powerless to actually change the heart. HOWEVER..........

The doctrine of seperation from the world is extremely Biblical. In several epistles Paul exhorts the believers to live a life worthy of the Lord. To live a life of defined by godliness. That if anyone desnt teach accordingly he "knows nothing." James says true religion is amongst other things to "keep oneself unspotted from the world" and John reminds us, though well known, it is widey disregarded, "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world" and yet it seems like Christians (especially former apostolics) glory in their freedom to cuss, to entertain themselves with all manner of worldly material, whether movies, music, leisure.

I don't get it. I realize I'm on the opposite track as some of these people, because all their childhood (and even into adulthood) they didn't watch tv, didn't listen to secular music, didn't experience the world, and now that their eyes have been opened to "grace" they "are free to do all these things" (ref. Jeremiah 7). But that's not biblical grace! Biblical grace that bring salvation teaches us to DENY ungodliness and worldy lusts (see Titus 2:11-14), not indulge in these thing, even in "moderation." I wasn't raised in church, my whole life was consumed with worldliness, I lived in most of the sins listed in the NT (Romans 1:28-32, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Col 3 :5-8, 1 John 2:15, etc) and I can not for the life of me understand what any christian would want to do with the world. What does the world offer you? What do you find so attractive? What do you think you will find? I'll tell you, you'l never find it. Those who think they have liberty could find one day their liberty carried them to far. In excercising their "freedom" they end up in bondage. But will most of them hear? No. Instead people who speak up for holiness and separation are met with shouts of "legalist", "weaker brother", etc.

Anyway, I'm done with my rant, just sayin, I don't understand why so many seem so eager to immerse themselves in this godless culture. ~Jason

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Good topic. People have heard holiness slammed for so long they have no strength left to oppose this. They have accepted the Protestant Evangelical perversions concerning grace and the teaching of being "in him".

Also please understand that the Protestant version of 1 John 1:8 has caused even people who are living free from sin to think they have to confess they have sin even if they dont. The right understanding of it agrees with all the rest of Johns writings and changes everything. It leaves us no exuse to fall short of the only standard Yeshua has given his disciples.

Be you therefore perfect even as the Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Holiness slammed? You mean standards?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

To me holiness has NEVER meant "standards" as in must shave or never trim. Holiness is separation to the person and will of Yeshua.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

So can someone give me an example of holiness being slammed here?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Any teaching that says the saints need not be perfect is slamming holiness imo.

We shall see what Jason means when he returns. I have noticed what he is talking about many times over.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Can you give us an example of a thread where godliness is exalted without someone coming on and labeling it legalism?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

:highfive

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Good topic! I understand the self loathing at our weekness..I know all to well in my own life, the short comings, the times of anger, saying things I know are not conducive to a Christian etc.

I long to be right and do right, every day, and it does get frustrating when I fall, we all are usually far more educated then obedient.

For those who have been abused, it is VERY difficult to separate the good and right from the wrong, seeing as how the two grew together...sometimes in trying to pull the bad off the good...some of the good gets ripped out as well. For example, Holiness, and Godliness are Biblical and right...same with separation from the world. When a person is taught these things in principle...that is well and right. when there arer hard fast laws made off the principle and then in turn used to beat down a person..that is wrong.

I have been on both sides of the fence...and while I totally understand the error of many modern day preachers when they attemp to teach Grace...there is the other side of the coin that refuses to teach or expound the maifold graces of God and His total willingness to love and forgive us if we confess and repent. Once again, the good and the bad.

In my opinion we need good doctrine...we also need the Spirit...and the glue that seems to hold these two together is love...and from what I have observed, love is an ever decreasing element in many churches...regardless of being strict or liberal. All to often we are not willing to bear one anothers burdens and really be tender hearted toward one another.

Love covers a multitude of sins...so what happens when love diminishes? Seems pretty easy to figure out. Maybe I am crazy, but if we would focus on Jesus...love Him, and love each other the way we are supposed to...maybe many of these agendas on both sides would simply disolve...we would ask Him waht He thinks instead of proclaiming what we think....

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Jesus said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This is repeated by John in his first epistle. Love is not in word, but in deed. Holiness is a byproduct of repentance, and repentance is turning from sin and unto the Lord. James teaches us that as we draw near to God, He draws near to us. We can say all we want that we love Jesus and the brethren, but until we understand what 1John 5:2-3 actually says, we do not understand the love of God or how to love our brothers.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

What is "Christian perfection"?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Christian perfection is the heresy that no matter how we live now, we have been made 100% perfect through Christ and need not strive unto holiness. It is a doctrine of demons because it says that we as believers need not walk as Christians, but because of Christ's work, all we do is sanctified. It is not normally spoken openly, but is indeed taught in many of the more liberated congregations around. However, it is Christian perfection in word, not in truth.

True Christian perfection according to scripture is this, that I am in the world, but not of the world. I will sin, but I am growing in grace daily, being conformed more and more to the image of Christ. I am striving to walk in the footsteps of the Lord, not to merit His favor, but because He has favored me already. So, I die daily, and strive each and every day to walk as I should according to his Word, leaning on the Spirit to guide and keep me. I may fall, but as I mature, I see myself falling less and less, until that day when I see Christ face to face.

One form of this doctrine seeks to have liberty in the flesh. Another seeks to have Christ glorified.

Last night I puked in the bathroom sink. For some reason I plugged the sink with my shirt while the water was running. Then I passed out against the wall. I was discovered when someone realized there was water leaking from the ceiling of the first floor. I think I should go to A.A., but I'm only an alcoholic when I'm not at work. Maybe I can introduce myself, "My name is ----, and I'm an alcoholic two-sevenths of the time..." Do they still give free coffee and donuts?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

AMEN!!! :highfive

Holiness is much much than the "standards" .... because you can easily accomodate those fleshly things.

And... how much more difficult it is to keep holiness of heart than a standard of dress... so this is really what Jesus was teaching, inward holiness. For when the heart is holy, it will be manifested in the outward appearance in ways that will set it apart from the rest of the world that we live in. Holiness was NEVER meant to be mandated, but it was to change us as directed from the Holy Spirit living within us.

I think I have a higher standard of heart living now that I have left the Pentecostal ranks than before. Things that I would do then without thinking twice, now leave me feeling that the Lord would not be pleased. Before I would think... the preacher or pastor or my parents would not be pleased... now, my first thought is, what would the Lord Jesus think of this!

Wow! Completely revolutionizes what you do, say, and think when you allow the Lord Jesus into your heart and hold up your activities before HIS eyes to see if He is pleased.

I believe this is true holiness of heart. Walking to please the Lord Jesus in all things, and not trying to be a cookie cutter, look-alike man-pleasing Christian.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

By the way Jason B - your post was awesome! We can let the pendulum swing too far when leaving Pentecostal self righteousness behind, to liberty that actually is another form of bondage.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

God bless you brother for not only showing your heart in such a wonderful way in your post, but also doing it with such a spirit of love and humility.

It's a shame within Pentecost we are a people of such extremes, and in our desire to repent and mend our legalism and salvation by works, that we've allowed the pendulem to swing so far to the other side of the spectrum and become a people who abuse God's wondeful grace. God does want us to be a separate people, God does desire us to be ambassadors for Him, exemplifying every part of His character, which is not only love and mercy, but also justness and Holiness.

Thank you brother for such a eloquant post.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

One is easy believism (anything goes)... the other is growing in grace as one is conformed into the image of Jesus. Is that what you're saying?

In the mean time... while we're striving to be conformed into Christ's image... don't we stand in His imputed righteous perfection?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Some of the worst treatment I have ever received came from my brothers and sisters in the Lord. One does not have to cuss somebody else out to show disdain or hate towards them.

Simple ordinary words can cut like a sharp knife and leave gaping wounds in your heart.

For some, it's not enough to dislike another, they have to go to great lengths to make sure others never like them either. The phone lines are burning up, the huddles in the church halls and sudden quiet when the one who is disliked joins the group, the sudden 'I have to go somewhere' when approached....

When a brother or sister truly loves one another in Christ, they do not seek to do these things to another. They do not bully another into complying or conforming to ideas or lifestyles.

Come on you all...you know we are all guilty of doing this at some time or another.

Until we can show common decency and respect to all of our brothers and sisters in the Lord, until we can truly love the unlovable of our brothers and sisters, we will never be convincing to the lost that we are indeed disciples of Christ.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

So if someone disagrees with you that we need to be perfect they are slamming holiness?


Are you perfect?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Do you mean standards?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Are you perfect?

AMEN

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

We don't have to attain perfection to simply love
1. God and
2. our neighbor.
If we do these two things, we have fulfilled all the law.

If we do these two things, Christ through the Holy Ghost, will perfect us.

If we think we can perfect ourselves.....:nah

I think the Lemon made it clear in his post that he's not. I strugle with some of the same things. I don't have gross sin in my life (anymore) but I still struggle with brief moments of weakness. I supervise over 400 employees directly accountable to me, and they act like kids half the time. I'm amazed at how immature adults act. Anyway occasionally I get frustrated with a situation and snap at work or home. By "snap" I don't mean a long tirade, but just a short sharp remark (not profanity). Sometimes (many times) its not even the words I say, but how I say them. Even if others don't pick up on my anger/frustration, I know that in that momet I just failed my Lord. I allowed anger to overcome me, and I sinned. I feel like the worlds biggest fool. I ask God to forgive me, and help me not to do this anylonger. Granted since God revealed this problem to me its greatly improved. My point in using this example isn't that I'm going to be lost over such short comings (I believe God's grace is great and the blood of Christ continually cleanses the faithful repentant believer in all his shortcomings as God works out progressive sanctification throughout our lives)...my point is that I can't just be happy or not bothered by sn in my life just because I'm "saved anyway." Yet this is the attitude o many christians, they're not bothered about sin in their lives or partaking in "moderated" worldliness because of grace.

The point of my post is that we should all actively seek to grow in Christ like holiness throughout our lives, not reach a point where we feel we now understand grace so much so that living holy is put on the back burner, which is exactly what I see at times from Christians, both in internet conversation and otherwise. If anyone else is talking in terms of standards, I'm not. I no longer even attend a OP church, I attend an Evangelical Bible Church, but one reason I ended up there is because when I was in a church that was ex-upc (1 step doctrine, no standards) there was such a move twards worldliness and charismatic doctrine that I had t go into th evangelical movement to find a church that emphasized a personal relationship and daily walk with Christ.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

I think that is where part of the problem lies....the definition of 'holiness'.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

I still associate it with a list of a dozen or more things we either start or stop doing based upon an agreed on "identity" and "look".

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

But Michael said we need to be. Can you find an example here of what you are talking about and Post it? Are we talking standards?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Does God measure "Big" sins and "Little" sins, or is Sin just Sin with Him, ...... any transgression of His Law?

Now I'm not speaking of how sin affects us, or the affect it has on those around us. Just simply asking, with God, isn't Sin, Sin and it takes no more grace, for God, to forgive us regardless of the Sin?

Been Thinkin

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

All these amens but nobody seems to know or agree on the meaning of holiness

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

That is exactly the heresy. If we are in sin no we are not just automatically considered to be righteous because Christ is righteous.

We are only righteous if we are righteous even as he is righteous.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7

In truth this is the error that Apostolic New Testament Christians have swallowed en mass and is destroying the harvest at this time.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

I have told you what I believe is holiness. Now you tell what you believe.

And now because others MEN do not agree what holiness is we are excused from pressing in and finding out for ourselves?

Thats whats wrong. We have to find the truth for ourselves. Mens opinion about holiness means nothing.

Yeshua said if we hunger and thirst for righteousness we shall be filled.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

If someone disagrees with Christ about the standard being perfection they are perverting his word.

Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Am I perfect? Dont look to men Prax. If I am not perfect would that excuse someone else from not being perfect? No. It would just mean that I was not living the normal Christian life Yeshua expects.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

The issue is the topic and nobody seems to know what it is. I'm not the one claiming people "slam Holiness" on this forum.

Now if you meant "standards" yes I agree, but if not someone needs to define standards and give an example of where that happened on this forum because I haven't seen it


Everyone is amening but nobody seems to really know what Jason meant by what he said

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

So you believe there are some people out there that are perfect? what happens if we are not? Being perfect is the definition of Holiness?

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Obviously there are some who are perfect. That is the normal standard of a Christian. Anthing short of that is less than Christianity to Yeshua.

If we are not walking in "perfection" according to Yeshua we stand to be lost.

2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:5

Holiness and perfection are linked together in scripture.

Yeshua said:

Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Peter said:

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written , Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:14-16

See the connection? They are both saying the same thing.

There is an aspect of holiness concerning our hearts where we are perfect as to purity.

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Matt. 5:8

Then there is the outworking of whats in the heart expressed by obedience/doing the will of God.

12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. Col. 4:12

Yeshua said if we do not do the will of God we will not be saved.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

So its true without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Philippians 2: 5-11 NLT

‘You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Whosoever.
All.
Any.
Every.

These inclusive words are used to describe those with whom God wishes to communicate and save.

Stay with me for a moment…

“Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 10:32-33 KJV

“We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are. For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.” Romans 3: 22-23 NLT

In God’s eyes, we are all the same. By that I mean that we are the same in our uniqueness, our sinfulness, and our opportunity to draw near to the cross of Christ.

~Men talk about equality but God actually deals with humans equally~

When Thomas Jefferson composed the American Declaration of Independence, he included the following words within the preamble: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…”

Of course, he penned these words in 1776 as an indictment to King George III along with a long list of tyrannies that had been committed toward the American colonists by the British Crown.

• Taxation without representation.
• No free elections.
• Kangaroo courts.
• High tariffs.
• The practice of impressment.

To be sure Jefferson and the colonists had every right to be angry. Everyone longs to be treated fairly. Equally. Deferentially.

However, it seems odd that a man so passionate about his own personal freedom, who so passionately, forcefully, and eloquently wrote of his yearning to be free of the chains of political and economic tyranny could –at the exact time he penned the Declaration – hold black people captive at his own plantation.

There are many things to admire about Jefferson but I find this dissonance between his words and actions appalling.

Life has taught me that equality, or fairness, is something we all feel we deserve but are far too often unwilling to extend to others.

But God’s not like that.

In God’s eyes we are all sinners. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. He died for the sins of the whole world. That means He had to die because I am a sinner, and you are a sinner, and the other 7 billion souls are sinners, too.

And the ground is level at the foot of the cross.

We all stand condemned. James 2:10 says “the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.”

If that’s true then we all deserve to die. We all deserve Hell.

• Have you ever lied?
• Stolen?
• Been jealous?
• Committed adultery?
• Slandered?
• Acted violently?

If you have committed one of these sins you are as lost and Hell-bound as Adolph Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer.

See, when we stand at the cross and view the bleeding Christ we should be aware that He bleeds for our sins, that we are culpable.

The cross is the great equalizer.

When the sky is dark and we hear Him scream in agony “AY-lee AY-lee LAH-muh sah-bahk-TAHN-ee?” all of humanity should feel that same sense of despair knowing that He became sin for us, and that it is our sin that has caused the separation between us.

The cross stands as a stark reminder that we are helpless without God. It reminds us that our righteousness is as filthy rags and that our only hope is in Him.

Romans 3:27-28 NLT
“Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.”

But the same cross that condemns is also our hope for salvation.
• When He says “whosever will” He means it.
• When He says He is the Lamb that “takes away the sins of the world” He means it.
• Everyone who believes is justified.

And although the cross condemns all equally, it beckons the whole world to draw near, too. We are not all guaranteed the same outcome, but we are all guaranteed the same opportunity to receive God’s free gift of salvation.

Everyone.
All.
Whosoever.

God calls all to salvation.

Romans 3:29-30 NLT
“After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.” NLT

Revelation 22:16-17
“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Just three questions

What is meant by Holiness for the record?

What is glorying in Sin?

Please post an example of glorying in sin/slamming Holiness

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

We are told to be holy in our conduct, so, there must be things that we do that are holy/not holy.

1 Peter 1, ESV

Called to Be Holy
13Therefore, preparing your minds for action,a and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24for

“All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Yes but the topic is "glorying in sin"

Here is the original assertion

"It seems that among the AFF crowd here (and those with AFF roots who post primarly on FB) that there is almost a glorying in sin. A glorying in NOT being perfect and being at least a little worldly. These people tend to come across as condenscending towards those who seek to be seperated from the world. "

Is it an almost glorying in sin or outright? Please give some examples of this phenomena here on AFF

"Why don't we care about true holiness anymore?"

What is true Holiness. Who is the "we"?

"I realize I'm on the opposite track as some of these people, because all their childhood (and even into adulthood) they didn't watch tv, didn't listen to secular music, didn't experience the world, and now that their eyes have been opened to "grace" they "are free to do all these things" (ref. Jeremiah 7). But that's not biblical grace! Biblical grace that bring salvation teaches us to DENY ungodliness and worldy lusts (see Titus 2:11-14), not indulge in these thing, even in "moderation." I wasn't raised in church, my whole life was consumed with worldliness, I lived in most of the sins listed in the NT (Romans 1:28-32, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Col 3 :5-8, 1 John 2:15, etc) and I can not for the life of me understand what any christian would want to do with the world. "

Isn't "sin" stuff like lying, stealing, fornicating, adultery etc etc, not "TV watching"? Because someone disagrees TV watching is a sin they are classified as disgruntled former Pentecostals gone charismatic and glorying in SIN??? Really?

What is "the world"? Why is TV watching "The world"? Because the world does it? They also do car driving and restaurant going

I could find 1 place where "worldly" is used
Tit 2:12 teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world,

The bible does not define worldly lusts as TV watching or Secular Music listening. Now does that mean you can watch lustful stuff (Like two people having sex)? No that would fall under lusts right?

The problem is "worldly" seems to be rather subjective in definition

Re: Glorying In Sin
 

Agreed.

30 And they that weep , as though they wept not; and they that rejoice , as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy , as though they possessed not; 31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away . 1 Cor. 7:30-31

17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded , nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 1 Tim. 6:17

You need to live close enough to Yeshua to realize IF we are abusing things that are in the world.

It seems Paul may have enjoyed poetry. Or at least was familar with it enough to use it in a sermon.

For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring. Acts 17:28