How are/should preachers be paid
 

In another thread I expressed concerns about our local preachers and how they IMO abuse the church financially... Since it seemed to be a little off topic for that thread I thought I'd start a separate thread over here...

My examples of how this works have not set well with me. A preacher of retirement age who continues on by hiring out all the 'work' (preaching, hospital visits, etc.) but keeps the title and the money... another who tells my husband that every third dollar is his for personal use no matter how large the congregation grows or how much money that becomes... Both living in an upscale area far from the churches they pastor which are in mid-income areas... Essentially saying to me that they are too good to live among those they 'lead'. Not very Jesus like it seems...

So how does your pastor pay model work if you know, and what do you think about it.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Well, I have mentioned MANY times on this forum, my feelings about "Professional Business Church". Most of my minster friends would strongly disagree with my opinion on that matter.

Having said that...my last pastor worked and owned his own business...his wife worked as well, and they had their salary and benefits supplied by their secular jobs. IF they got any money from the church it was not much...most of the money given went right back into the church...in fact, when they retired, the church was almost totally debt free...how's that for a testimony. The congregation was not huge, but the atmosphere of love and restoration was unlike anything I had ever experienced in any other church.

Now, my current pastor, also works a secular job...and told me in the past that he always would....however, he has more recently recanted that idea and hopes in the near future to be full time. Both of these men believe in the tithing doctrine, whole heartedly...although neither ever actually taught it, and i have been in that church for five years now....at any rate.

It amazes me how much of the church system we have adopted from the Catholic system, and yet preach it as Apostolic and foundational...unbelievable...from expensive buildings, to chock full calendars and programs...we have our own rituals.

I see nothing wrong with financial support of the pastor, and understand that as being biblical...but in principle and in love...not in law and curse. Whats more, is that if the five fold ministry has equal parts in equipping and in the perfection of the saints...then IF there are perks...they should be shared and not all tribute paid to just one man, and all other ministers should just be glad for the opportunity to "minister".

Anyway...

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

My pastor accepts no pay for his work. The last one didn't either. If either one utters a need at nine, it is filled by noon.

The ones you describe are clowns, not pastors,
and I don't even feel sorry for the poseurs who feed them.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

This sounds reasonable. Not all pastors do this though. The region I live in they don't work a secular job or put all the 'tithe' money back into the ministry of the church. They believe every dime is theirs to do with whatever they want. There is one pastor in this region who lives in an upscale area and drives a mercedes convertible around town. (He's not UPC, but came from UPC ) There is little to no outreach. No benevolent funds. No church pantry. If there is a need, they go to the saints after all the regular collections of 'tithe, Sunday school offering, building fund, missions etc' are taken and if the people have anything left to give, what's left will go to the family in need.

You know, it wouldn't take a lot to have a church pantry for the hungry. If every family and single person who has a job buy one thing extra when they do their weekly shopping, those among them will be able to have food supplemented to them.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

:toofunny

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

They should retire when they reach retirement age and if they wish to evangelize, then fine. It sounds like somebody wants job security!!!!:foottap

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Ya, surely we all feel the need for another congressman :toofunny

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Elly, we all want job security but my hubby once heard an evangelist preach that if you don't have enough money to pay the rent...pay your tithes anyway.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

On a commission basis. And tips. :D

(Miss me? :lol)

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Your not banned?????:tease

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Shh! Don't give them any ideas! :heeheehee

I am the ban king.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Welcome back!!!!

Yeah. Leave the banner up. LOL

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I can top that one. I heard it preached very clearly that if an older saint has only enough money to pay tithes or buy their prescriptions...they should pay the tithe and just trust God to take care of their health.

I guess if they die from lack of medications the church will then expect a pay out from the life insurance as well to make up for future tithes they can't pay. It's really sad and sickening.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Yep. That does top the rent/tithe statement.

I wonder if it was the same evangelist. I won't name him because he is very well known among the UPC ranks.

However, if the poor should have faith to pay the rent and the elderly should have faith to trust God to take care of their health, then the preacher should have faith likewise for God to take care of his needs?

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Same man said that peopel should leave lareg amounts of their life insurance or estate to the church when they die. He siad it would be better used for the kingdom of god than given to your kids to go out and waste.

But he also says that the church shouldn't ever be all about money money money so it's ok. LOL.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Awww yeah. The church doesn't waste money does it?

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I would love to know the evangelist pushing this koolaide...seems in some circles the 'system" is used for big pimpin'.

The older I get, the more disenchanted I am with "Church". I tire of going to a building every Sunday...singing a few songs, worshipping for 15-20 min, and then hearing a message and going home, and repeating this week after week, year after year...in hopes that it will somehow validate my walk with God and keep me saved, and in the good graces of the church and pastor....I can't believe I am the only one feeling this way.

It would be refreshing to take a Sunday morning and have Church at a community park, or a street service, or something....I don't know...

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I think that we would benefit from a balance of traditional church and the more unorthodox like home meetings, community service, etc.

"Church" is a lot like kindergarten. It really is great for someone who has never been in the presence of God or godly people before. It teaches basics. It gives one a community of believers to draw from and model things after. It encourages faithfullness and gets one started down a road to a deep relationship with God. It should spark ones hunger to know God and His word.

Just like kindergarten though...you grow out of it and mature. Then what? "Church" expects you to just happily do the same thing week after week and if you don't...you are backslidden and don't love God or his church.

You would never expect a person to enjoy kindergarten over and over and over. You expect them to grow up and move on to deeper things. Yet church doesn't support that. They want you in the pew paying your church tax(tithing) every week.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Brilliant!

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Well, you say you don't know; I say, whatever idea you (in the Spirit) devise is a great idea, and where God is. Take a bum to breakfast. Anything. Trust that God delights in your unique way of producing fruit. Peace.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

"Church" is about fellowshipping and worshiping with other believers; I don't believe you grow out of that.

My church isn't like "kindergarten." Our pastor brings meat to the table every time he preaches and people who pay attention and apply what is taught are going to continue to grow and mature.

I think it depends on what sort of church you are referring to and how much you invest into what goes on there, frankly.

And there's no "they"; the church is made up of "we." It isn't them against me. WE are a community of believers, WE fellowship and worship together, and WE share the benefits and responsibilities of that community.

People who don't learn to become part of a congregation or at least a small group or team are truly missing something from their experience. God put these concepts into place for the benefit of the saints; it was His idea, not ours. Yes, there are a lot of manmade ideas and interpretations about how those ideas are applied, but the general ideas of fellowshipping other Christians both on a friendly and spiritual level is very biblical. When done right, it edifies the saints in the local assembly and ultimately the church as a whole.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

As far as how money is handled:

As long as the financial arrangements are satisfactory to both the leadership and the congregation, I don't care how it's worked out. (As long as everything is done legally.)

The only time we even need to have an opinion is when something is handled in a way that hurts the pastor, his family, the congregation or the community. If someone's being hurt--then yes, something needs to change. Otherwise, let the local church decide how the money THEY contribute should be handled and doled out.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I appreciate Miss Bratts posts...perhaps I need to evaluate my commitment and involvement level and in prayer...makes sense to me. The most important thing to me is being right and doing right in all aspects of this life....especially those concerning my walk and relationship to God.

Some experiences do tend to skew ones vision and perception....sort of like going to the eye Doctor and finding out you need a stronger prescription to see clearly. I suppose it is a double edged sword in some ways...one one side, we need to let go of the past and let God heal old wounds...but on the other side, there can be much learned from the mistakes of the past as well...be that your own or others.

I was on staff (non-paid) of a church for fourteen years...we never ran over 100 souls and only ever hit that mark a couple times in all those years. We did outreach, door knocked, had 3-4 services a week, did community fund-raisers....it became a cycle. The love, fellowship, and family was needed and there was strength there for sure...I agree we are to assemble, and take on one anothers burdens, pray for each other etc., etc.

Having said that...in all the years the cumulative effect was that life basically revolved around the church...the building, the structure, the programs...but very little to no real community involvement off the premises...no reaching people where they really are instead of trying to drag them to the church building.

It is hard to put my finger on it, and while there are certainly many good things and folks saved from that time, it still felt like something was missing. There was a covering under the pastors leadership and truthfully no one knew anything was wrong at all...until he abruply retired, then the cat was out of the bag.....it is foolish to think that everyone who attends a congregation is all informed or on board with the financial handlings of the church and leadership...there are times where things can be very wrong within the leadership and folks on the pew are none the wiser....and IF they ever catch wind of the "wrong" it totally rocks their faith and perception of "Church" as they knew it...

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

So I have to ask, is that the financial model at your church?

The only experience I have with pentecostal churches is the one man rules all model. It is my understanding that this man takes at least 1/3 of every dollar given to the church no matter how much money that becomes. In larger or more affluent churches that could be millions. Indeed the pastor of my former UPC church gave a million dollars to the building fund 'out of his own money' when he'd not had another job beside overseeing that church.

The one man model I am familiar with does not stop with the 1/3 either but also allows for that same man to fully control the other 2/3. This church has no benevolent fund, food pantry, clothes closet, etc. The private school supports itself with tuition, the youth pay for their own activities with fund raisers and are even used for other money making enterprises like dipping chocolate strawberries for Valentines day that are sold for the same price as the local gourmet chocolate shops to the tune of thousands of dollars in profits. The biggest seller gets a $50 gift card, all the rest goes to the church. Balloons are sold on Mother's Day with the highest paying family winning a dozen roses and a good parking space for their mother, which usually cost them hundreds of dollars. Even the Ladies Auxiliary gives it's proceeds for bake-sales etc. to the church.

In fact most things seem to be geared to producing more money for the pastor and his family. He is more than a decade past retirement age and no longer serves in any real pastoral role but is simply a figurehead. Yet he keeps the reigns and control of the bank accounts. There is no disclosure that I am aware of, with him even doing the deposits from the offering personally. He has been known to question members if their tithe check goes missing.

So while the membership is following the principle of just leaving it up to the pastor I am not sure it's a good idea. I believe that the true 'robbing' can God come in just being content to give one's money to others and not see that the Kingdom's work is done with it. I don't think that giving money to a church that is not using it for God's purpose is any better than spending it at Walmart.

JMVHO

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Tithing is NOT a NT obligatory APOSTOLIC directive.

"HERESY."

Really? Well, when one can PROVE from Holy Writ "tithing" is obligatory concerning the NT gentile coverts born again, baptised by ONE Spirit into ONE BODY, I'll be more than happy to listen. But it is NOT an Apostolic directive and never mentioned by the Apostle.

Oh, I know, "one cannot outgive God and God will be no man's debtor."

Absolutely true but that is not obligatory tithing demanded by the church leadership. Obligatory tithing is a "tradition" and nothing more.

"Abraham gave tithes and that was before the Law."

True. He gave a tenth willingly as a free will offering, no obligation and only ONCE as recorded in Scripture. No tithing obligation was cited.

"But Jacob gave tithes."

True again .... willngly and as a decision uncoerced.

Don't misunderstand, if a person has vowed to honor the LORD with a tenth of all his goods, so be it. No criticism by me. Please do so. But again if a person does NOT wish to give a tenth but a fifth or a twentieth, he/she is no less a person saved by the GRACE of God, bought by the Blood of the Lamb.

Many UNBiblical and foolish traditions have been created by gentile men totally unconnected with the writing and the re receiving the Sacred Text that today, the "tithing game" [as an obligation] has been, in many cases, more or less a con job.

"Giving" is the real test of a NT, APOSTOLIC Born Again man or woman, boy or girl. If the "pastor" has to hammer money out of the congregation by scare stories, UNScriptural teachings, pressure, it's a con job tho perhaps, unintended to be so. He no doubt "believes" what he is telling you. The attempt to buy off God is very common and produces another example of "works salvation" by innuendo. It is error.

"Ye MUST tithe."

Who said so? The church? What church? The First Century APOSTOLIC Church?

Wrong. That APOSTOLIC gathering [ministry] taught free will giving from the heart, not a demand, not as an "obligation" but as the outflowing of the New Heart. A Spirit wrought willingness to share with the saints the largress of those more blessed in material means. Never a, "ye must" or lose out with God.

"But how will the church be supported?"

The church will be just fine. Put it to the test. Go to the pulpit Sunday morning telling the people the truth. Tithing is NOT obligatory. Just give as the LORD puts it on your heart and we'll move on. No more tithing, just giving as the LORD leads and if we go belly up, so be it.

So who is really "trusting" the LORD? One poster said the pastor told some poor soul to pay their "tithes" and trust God for healing. Maybe it's the pastor who truely needs to trust God and let the poor soul pay for her medicine.

But traditon is too strong to allow true trust in so many gatherings. Much as the MORMON welfare system, tithing is required, obligatory, celebrated, exalted and all without a shred of Biblical support for the gentile converts.

"Do you tithe SOI?"

NO. I give as the LORD leads and as needs arise that are brought to my attention. I have never lacked food, clothing, shelter or transportation. The LORD has always permitted me to be employed and earn my daily bread. The LORD has always permitted me to remain in health and post to various forums be they Pentecostal, "reform[ing"], Baptist or whatever Independents.

"God will come down on you if you don't tithe."

Don't believe it. God loves a "cheerful GIVER," nothing said about a "tither" if based on fear, ignorance or a gruding obligation.

If your attitude is a "I gotta give a tithe" under duress and with a gruding attitude, better to keep the coin in your pocket. The Bible said, "God loves a CHEERFUL giver," not money out of the hand of folks conned into opening their pockets under pressure.

Abraham and Jacob gave WILLINGLY, not an OBLIGATION but their personal desire as their vow.

Who has it correct? The obligatory tithing system or the cheerful giver?

"Are you telling us NOT to tithe?"

No, you do as the LORD leads you and I'll do as the LORD leads me.

ONLY THE SCRIPTURES CORRECTLY EXEGETED IS THE WORD OF GOD.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

ASKING AGAIN... What is the pastor pay model at your church or any other OP church you have attended?

Examples would be:

Salary (known amount)
Salary (undisclosed or unknown amount)
Percentage of tithe
Percentage of all collections
All tithes
All collections
Don't know
Don't want to know
Can't know (secret)

And how do you feel about it?

Fair
Too little
Too much
Ridiculous

And why?

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Oh... and for the pastors I've used as examples above.

Can't know (secret) how much they are actually paid but my estimation is that it is too much and that is ridiculous. Just for the record.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Tim-may...........:happydance

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I know our Pastor is on salary. I have never asked how that salary is determined nor do I know how much it is.

I do know it is a pretty good amount. I say that because he is paid monthly and has said that on more than one occasion he has not taken a paycheck some months in order to pay the church bills or various special offerings/needs. So in essence, he makes enough that he could go without a paycheck for an entire month an be fine. I also know he has bought things for the church as a gift from he and his wife that cost a few thousand dollars and didn't bat an eye during our building program.

I don't know anyone making what I am making that could just go without a paycheck for a month and not be really really hurting. Nor do I know anyone making what I make that could just go out and plop down a couple thousand dollars for new equipment for the church.

In his defense of course, it could be that he has been extremely frugal and has a very substantial savings account to draw from in these instances. I do not know. I do want to be sure to try to see both sides and possibilities though.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

They need salaries from the church and/or a secular job. They should have a retirement account and benefits. Do they not pay into Social Security and pay income tax? Why doesn't the Organization handle this? Other denominations do, including retirement homes for Pastors.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Let me just say that discussions like this...while interesting, are essentially private matters within the local assemblies....what I mean by that is the opinion, views and motives of both the church in question (either yours or anothers), as well as that of the individual posters here on the forum are unknown to the readers here...unless you go to the same church and have the same pastor, or you know each othwer personally.

Why is that important? Simply because we all only have our own experiences - past, and present, to draw from. Some folks here have been raised in and grew with the Church they attend and have had nothing but wonderful fellowship and growth...while others obviously not so much...so you will get a lot of answers and opinions that vary greatly...especially on matters like tithing, how finances should be used, and yes...standards.

We need to be able to trust those in leadership in our own respective church's...if you can't or don't...no answer will ever bring closure or direction...it will become circular in nature. I know that everyone has heard this MANY times...but the best way to resolve a conflict or answer a question is to sit down with the pastor and ask...I mean really, is there any other way to really handle a question about salary, money, and their stance on tithing etc?

The reaction or the action you get from a private discussion MIGHT give you some idea of the heart, motive, and direction of the pastor / leadership. I think the big problem with such a thing is the fear ingrained in many Apostolics to not "question" the pastor etc. But I think you need to be polite, courteous, but unafraid to ask the tough questions...ask them....either they will or won't answer you.

Juast trying to look at this subject from a more balanced level approach...

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Perhaps you have misunderstood my intent or you are just spouting off to hear yourself sound wise but either way you are way off base of what I am after.

I grew up Catholic. The org. controls everything. Priests are given a small stipend and their living expenses/arrangements, travel, etc. are paid for. Nuns take a vow of poverty, 'nuff said. I was Baptist for a decade. Our preachers recieved a salary and income and expenditures for the church were covered by a treasurer and/or board but it was all very open.

My experience in OP churches has been the model above. I am trying to gleen if this is typical or non-typical, simple as that... Reading a whole bunch of garbage about arguement and even standards into it is not helpful. I believe it is important because each of us is as responsible for where our money marked for God's work goes as we are for any other money we are in control of, maybe more so.

I'm not asking anyone to call out their current or former or ANY church by name. If this is not a place to ask questions we can all just shut off our computers now.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I really don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but you get what you pay for. Do you pay tithes out of your heart, or just because? After all it's God's anyway. I don't know any Pastor's personally that are living high off the hog while their congregation suffers. I agree the best thing to do is talk to your Pastor one on one.

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Every time you talk Cindy I wish I lived close enough to come to your church :)

This is not the case on our local churches though... Pastors that have to live two towns over to live in 'master planned communities' while some of the saints are on foodstamps... Well...

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

Wow...slow down Titus...not sure why you decided to attack me on this. I have been around on this forum awhile and have seen many discussions come around again and again.

I agree to accountability in finances...so we are on the same page there. To be honest, I have no idea what, if any, money my current pastor makes off of the church...I know he works a secular job. My little bit of experience is that most folks do not know and the pastors salary (if any) is not discussed....I have not seen it discussed in business meetings or otherwise...but like I said...that is just my experience...others here may have different experiences.

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We have been very blessed with Pastors here. Loving, humble, giving men. They have kept up maintenance of the church property, mowed the lawn, etc. And in East TX heat that is no small thing. My opinion is Pastor's should be payed out of tithing if possible, along with the church bills being paid. If that is not possible, they might need secular jobs. Sometimes we give more and sometimes less, just whatever way we can. I do believe in accountability from the Pastor and the saints.

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Commission. Like I said. How about $1000 per convert? And tips. That should go without saying. :lol

Re: How are/should preachers be paid
 

I wanted to add 3 cents to this discussion thread.

I feel that a responsible thing for a minister to do is make sure that they have income and benefits coming in from some source other than their church work as well as insurance. I say this primarily because there are churches where the people don't have to give or in some cases don't/won't give. There may be cases (I don't know for sure) of preachers who are getting food stamps or other types of public assistance, or if the majority of the people in the church are on welfare, it's just not a wise thing to hope that the people can pay.

But on another matter, my pastor says, "People can't pay me to preach and they can't pay me to shut up". It seems like in some cases the preacher may curtail what thus saith the Lord because they are scared that the heavy givers will be offended by the preaching and teaching. How many preachers privately believe in the Oneness of God and the water baptism in Jesus' name and are scared to teach it because their churches may vote them out? MichaeltheDisciple mentioned just such a case in his testimony on another thread. So personal responsibility on the part of the preacher is very important.

Also, I want to say that if we are going to a church and giving them money of any substance we should know where that money is going. This poses a problem I think for those of us who are not official members of churches because in many cases the church business meetings are closed for members only. I have been in Oneness believing churches where you may give money regularly in envelopes with your name and address on it and at the end of the year that church won't remember to give you a charitable donation document for your income tax return. And then there are trinitarian (anti-apostolic) churches and ministries that are classed as 501c-3 that will give documentation.

So overall, I think there needs to be personal responsibility and proper accountability on the parts of all: preacher, church member and regular church visitor.