Catholicism & Women
 

Reposted from my facebook page for discussion:

A couple of interesting comments from Catholic women:

"I was taken by surprise how much healing has taken place inside myself, my marriage, and my feelings about motherhood as a result of being immersed in a culture that gives great honor to the God bearer. It still amazes me how much value is given to strong [women]."

"I cannot even BEGIN to list how learning to understand Mary and venerating her has helped me be a better mother and wife. The effects of being submersed in this Catholic Culture has helped my marriage, 100% and it's not in some submissive way, these men (husbands and priests alike) are devoted to the Holy Mother. That devotion spills over to the other women in their lives. I've never felt so empowered as a woman and a wife."

Don't worry; I'm not looking to convert to Catholicism. However, I thought these comments were intriguing, and I wonder at the disrespect for women in general that seems common in some denominations--doctrines that focus on the failure of Eve, the alleged inherent weakness [of character?] of women and the woman's seemingly inferior position to her husband and authority figures. I'm not for deifying Mary, but I do acknowledge that God bestowed a great honor upon women and Mary in particular by using her to bring His flesh into the world. Does a disrespect for women in Christianity begin with a lack of regard for how God honored women in history? What are your thoughts? Any reactions to the posted comments?

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I see very little disrespect for women as far as Churches go. The rising tide is most certainly of women gaining power. Everywhere you look now there are women Pastors, co Pastors, and Youtube reveals a great number of women apostles.

Women may be disrespected in their private homes in individual cases but men seem to be belittled on a regular basis. I think respect is just vanishing among the human race in general.

A good friend of mine went Catholic some years ago. It was shocking. He had preached against Rome very hard for long years. I didnt see him for about a year then somehow he got caught up in it. Some said he did it for a woman. I heard about her but never met her.

Anything is possible. I know the famous Politicians tend to be Catholics. I cant remember ever meeting a Catholic that seemed like a true Christian.

I've considered returning to mama Rome to attend seminary.

I have met devout Catholics that are more "Christian" than many apo/pents that I have met.

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I have considered returning to the Catholic church.....not because I believe in it, really, but because it is my heritage and I would like to hang my hat somewhere....it would be nice to feel like I'm "home" and that might be the Catholic church because the UPC rejected me and I don't think I would ever feel at home there again even though much of my heart and soul was in it.

I never felt less than in the catholic church as a woman. When I first got into the UPC, I felt lifted up as a woman and respected although that degenerated in time as I became a preacher and the anti-women as preachers and women as inferior became evident.

On the flip side, in the catholic church, women are not allowed to become priests. I think, in religion, what matters most, is how doctrines are PRACTICED and not what is parroted as belief. If the men respect the women, it speaks volumes. Disrespect can happen anywhere under any doctrine.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I believe that any woman, following her heart, and being satisfied in any setting of her choosing will have positive things to say.

You will also be able, in that very setting, find a set of women with a different story to tell.

My aunt can tell you about her affair with our parish priest. :icecream

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

True. The comments simply surprised me; it had never occurred to me that there might be a connection between respect for the "God-bearer" and women in general. It does make sense, though, that men who are accustomed to "venerating" Mary might also be accustomed to honoring women in general.

There will be exceptions since all denominations are comprised of human beings and some of them are going to be generally disrespectful people and some will even by misogynists. I'm not really holding up the Catholic church as the paragon of all that would feel good to a woman; I'm more intrigued by the idea that the philosophy behind respecting Mary would have spillover into real life.

MTD,

Many times disrespect is subtle and even hard to clearly explain. I have been in churches where all problems, whether church, community, family, children, etc., were attributed to women at the root and the response of leadership was to put the women in their place. Other times it was less obvious, and more of a dismissive attitude. Most of my life I have felt respected by the leaders and men in my life, although not necessarily empowered. There have been exceptions, and times when I felt completely unappreciated and disrespected because of my gender and nothing else. Perhaps a better term would be "valued." Maybe women aren't always blatantly disrespected, but they are undervalued for sure. Of course, there are issues with men and male roles being undervalued and devalued as well. I'm only focusing on this topic because it's on my mind; not because I discount disrespect to men or because I believe women need to fill male roles in order to be respected.

I do agree with you that being respectful is generally a vanishing art. People are disrespectful to God, others and themselves. That bleeds over into the church world.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I think people look at the good in a religion when they are generally being respected and at the bad in a religion when they are not because religions make morality and respect of others their highest goals and they are their biggest bragging rights. Therefore, when religions fail, people will automatically criticize them harshly because the religions held themselves up so high as better than others (especially if they hold themselves up as better than other religions) and when they are not, they deserve the criticism they get as being hypocritical, more or less.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I have seen a lot of disrespect of women in our former Apostolic church. It was the heartbreak of a lifetime that my once loyal and loving husband, the one who was so proud of me as I made my way through school and raised our family was suddenly ashamed of me in the OP world. I was too loud, too frank, too much of a know-it-all... I could not dress myself right, get my hair fixed right, conduct myself right. Our time in the movement almost cost us our marriage of nearly 30 years. I finally told Don he should just divorce me and find the perfect Pentecostal wife (just add water). I fully expected when I dropped out I would be known as one of those Jezebel women who drug her family out of church for want of makeup and jewelry (neither of which interested me at that time) as that is presumably what happened to most disappearing families according to ministry. Women as a whole were portrayed very badly in that church, as you describe.

I grew up in the Catholic church and women were valued and cherished. The stories of Mary and of the women who cared for Jesus and were with him to the end were always at the forefront. And yes, I do believe it helps the level of respect for women in exactly the way you are supposing.

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i've heard it taught that the reverence and honor for our physical mothers is what inspires reverence and veneration for mary, not the other way around. just a thought.

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I remember the nuns treating all of us who went to public school bad. I was scared of my catechism teacher, a nun, who had to work an extra hour each week teaching us. I supposed that she felt as catholics, we ought to have been enrolled in Parochial School. We were slapped, yelled...no...screamed at, made to stand while all the rest had seats when day and night classes came together for procession practice. I was questioned a lot as to why my parents did not put me into parochial school. Simple fact was that we were poor and public school was free at that time. She yelled at me defending the "measly" cost of tuition.


I missed something during catechism classes...and that was to take off my little white gloves during communion. Afterwards, the nun got us into the classroom where she ripped into me in front of all the other children. She screamed at me that I ruined the entire first Holy Communion! It felt like the castigation went on for an hour although I feel fairly confident it only lasted a few minutes.


My sister has a totally different experience as a Catholic. She remains Catholic to this day.

Maybe that is one reason as to why I do not see the veneration of Mary as lessons of elevating women as many of the Catholic men and women see it?

Perhaps my validation in being a woman is in reading how Christ treated women with respect.

When the realization of who Christ is...that salvation is in Him only, because of His shed blood, actually penetrated my gray matter, it made it easy to completely walk away from Catholic traditions and mass.

But yes, it was better leaving the RCC than it was UPC because I truly expected better treatment since "truth" is always inserted in discussion and lessons.

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Did that turn out good or bad for her?

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I know women are disrespected and undervalued... but I have to agree with MTD. It seems to be the MEN that are being attacked more today. Pretty much most TV shows shun any parental authority by men. His role is valued most when he majors on his feelings and sensitivities... to the point of diminishing his masculinity.

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The Catholic Church is actually the worst Christian Cult of all time. Millions were killed by them over the years. They do teach one thing I agree with them on at least in countries other than America. The womans headcovering.

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I am not sure that one can assign 'levels' of bad to cultic behavior. JW, Mormons, Branch Davidians, etc. are plenty rotten... think Jim Jones for an example of a bad 'Christian' cult, think Warren Jeffs...

I think the view that the RCC is the 'worst' stems simply from the fact that they have 2,000 years of history, not 200 or 20 and that they have millions of members not thousands or hundreds or scores. It's simple multiplication, not being any worse. They also were around in much rougher times and places then some of the cushy religions of today.

To their credit they have carried the torch of Christ through time. Many tend to forget when they hold their precious Fox's Book of Martyrs that those saints were... Catholic.

I think the UPC would be mortified to find out exactly how much they share with Catholicism. I think that the RCC is a great example of 'But for the Grace of God go I." But I would never go so far as to deny that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

About the original post of this thread, that IS interesting and for them, I am sure it's true.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

No the worse is because they have actually KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who disagree with their doctrines. I have never heard of one person being beheaded or drawn and quartered by Oneness believers. The Catholic martyrs you mention were killed BY CATHOLICS because they disagreed with Catholic doctrine including the veneration of Mary.

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The RCC is anything but a Christian Church.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

My husband agrees with this assessment that television diminishes men in general. He is so disgusted by cartoons like Family Man and especially "The Simpsons" where the father figure is portrayed as a bumbling idiot and his wife is the strong voice in the home. Why does the man have to be portrayed in this fashion?

He does not watch television at all because of the programming.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

They moved him to another parish. I don't know what became of their relationship. I was afraid to ask my mother.

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So...the community found out?

That is a typical response from the RCC when there is a "scandal" or a "potential scandal".

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I don't really know. I was living in Houston at the time, so I wouldn't have known. In our family, we don't ask personal questions about anything. My mother mentioned about Father **** and my aunt, which surprised me! But that is all she said. You learn when the conversation is over. :heeheehee

I remember as a young girl watching him smoke a cigar after mass. I kept thinking it just didn't seem right, but then when he would drink with my father and uncles, I thought nothing of it. lol He was a very nice man. I always liked him.

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Oh smoking a cigar is now wrong!? :uhoh first they came for my 44 oz soda, then there was no stopping them!

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Yes. I found that the generation before me had the tendency to give you that "don't ask" look when they felt you were prying into something that they did not want anybody to know. :heeheehe

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I was ten years old. Maybe I saw an old James Cagney movie and equated the two! Who knows!! :heeheehee

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The generation after that is still the same. Must be my mother's blue blood heritage. :heeheehee She told me a funny story about her mother getting married and falling on hard times. They rented a Limo to visit family to try to get a loan. Turned down cold. :heeheehee

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

:toofunny

I wonder why they got turned down? rolleyes2

Never mind...don't answer that. That sounds as bad as when the people from the automakers all flew in with their jets with their hands out for the bailout.

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Nothing nefarious. Just the Depression. They were embarrassed to go home and say they were broke. Poor things. Should have sold some of their Catholic artifacts for extra money. lol

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I do not doubt for one minute that if there had been Apostolic Pentecostal preachers during the dark ages and the crusades they would have committed murders aplenty, as if those who rape young boys today are any better. The Jews wiped out whole nations including women, children and even livestock and the protestant reformers like Luther also killed those who did not agree with them... again it's just the scale of the Catholics to which you are objecting. More Catholics, more killing of Catholics by Catholics, simple math. And to this day Pentecostals 'kill' others who do not share their doctrine with hate speech and putting them in hell... Remember the words of Christ... To hate is as to kill... Same diff.

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ROFLOL! Funny (I get it)

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Congratulations Scott! You are now God.

If a church with errors is not Christian there are more that are out then you think... Maybe even your own.

Never thought I'd wind up defending Catholics but the arrogance around here is a huge challenge.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

What is Christian about them?

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

Here, I'll let them tell you themselves and save a ream of typeface.

http://www.catholicbridge.com/cathol..._christian.php

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

I read that. Guess you didn't. LOL

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

Yeah shocking isnt it? She compares this to Pentecostals. I have never met ANY brand of Pentecostals so dogmatic as this. Everyone is damned to Hell EXCEPT those of the Catholic Church.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

You know for sure? And yet history gives us not even one case of a Oneness Pentecostal killing someone of another belief over their doctrine.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

Well, considering that for centuries, much of the church world has been divided into Catholics vs. Protestants, it seems understandable. Catholicism is rife with false doctrine, and historically speaking, much (if not most) of the violence attributed to Christendom as a whole can really be laid at the feet of the RCC.

Some people (like Titus2woman :D) have a knee jerk reaction and defend the "underdog" in every conversation; I get that, but really--step back and look at the church you are defending. From a historical standpoint, it is a despicable entity. The modern Catholic is worth examining, as the Church and its processes have been refined to some extent by the moors of society and culture, but the historical RCC? Not a thing of beauty in any way, shape or form.

I do see how the trappings of deep tradition and worship can be refreshing and even soothing in our chaotic world, and I feel there are parts of the RCC that have value to the modern Christian. However, I do not for a second forget my history. I didn't post this thread under some illusion of grandeur in regard to the RCC. If any church represents wickedness, violence, abuse of power, and corruption over the course of time, it is the Catholic church. Huguenots, anyone? :coffee2

The discussions on the AFF don't need to be politically correct and 100% inoffensive to every possible reader. Let people say what they think; it really is okay.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

The damning of other religions by other religions is as old as time. Pentecostal history is what, a hundred years old? That the church was in apostasy until their movement is a whole lot of making God very small. The truth is the Catholic (or Universal) church WAS the Christian church on earth for hundreds of years, for good or bad.

I don't intend to defend something I don't belong to or believe in... It just makes me sad and sick how Christians are so determined to despise one another. Again, I see good things and bad things and horrible things in all religious systems but that does not mean that they are not Christians, it simply means they are human and capable of the sin that is the very cause of need of a Savior.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

There are good, bad and horrible things in every religious system because there are people in every religious system. However, the doctrines and espoused practices inherent to some religions are bad and even horrible in and of themselves. It's one thing for immoral or corrupt anomalies to arise within a denomination; it's another thing for corruption to be comprised of the leadership of the whole organization and for that corruption to be legalized and spread throughout all the daughter churches in the form of local leadership (oppression?).

There is no comparison, over the course of history, between the actions of the RCC and Protestant denominations. To many denominations, the RCC represents the corruption and abuse of power that they rejected and left. Although corruption and abuses of power arise in other denominations, they seem to be equally rejected and squelched most of the time.

It would be so nice if this thread could stay on topic.... :)

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

Edited in the interest of honoring Ms Bs request to be on topic.

But I will say that I must see Oneness Pentecostalism as much more corrupt in a widespread way than you do if you do not think any Protestant denomination has widespread internal corruption at every level.

Re: Catholicism & Women
 

Thanks, but now I'm dying to know what you edited out. :heeheehee