A Return
 

I must confess that it has been a few years since I've gone to church. I know, let the jeering terms of scorn begin. :)

A few weeks ago I returned to the Apostolic church where I was baptized. I expected to hear a heart-felt teaching with some depth to it. Instead, I was met with a fiery sermon about holiness and standards - practically the very same thing that was being taught and lectured about when I left.

Preaching about holiness and standards has it place, but why does that have to be the central focus of an Apostolic church? Consider the fact that the demographics of the church are mostly over the age of 65+ and have been faithful members of the church for nearly all of their lives, or at least half of their lives. If these old folks don't have holiness down by now they never will!

I'm just let down by the modern Apostolic church. I believe God to be more well-rounded and deeper than what He is given credit for in His house now of days. I will not return to church, but I will walk with God, and I believe I can have walk with God and be in fellowship with Him apart from what calls itself "His church."

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Amen. Sometimes it is a lonely walk. The Holy Ghost does lead and guide people if the will to follow Christ is there.

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Don't judge all churches by the one you visited.

Some are stuck in a "time warp" and some are "cultic" but there are also genuine Christians and very good local assemblies all over the world.

Many oneness churches are in survival mode as they struggle to hold onto the "faithful few" while they preach an irrelevant message of performance based religion and hunker down and "hide" in their fortresses with those who have drunk the koolaid huddled in there with them. All over the world God is pouring out His Spirit. There are millions and millions who consider themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic. Don't give up on "The Church." It is alive and well.

Just remember "The House of God is much larger than that little room where many of us used to dwell."

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Um, what about the "trinny" churches, Sam? :lol

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Maybe being "well-rounded" and "deeper" isn't God's assignment for you're old pastor...

Maybe your old pastor has been praying, preaching, and teaching simply what the Lord wills him too and God simply needs him to preach in particular way to reach the particular saints your pastor is pastoring...

Maybe you should seek the Lord on finding a pastor who preaches to your direct needs rather then critizing pastors who aren't as "deep" or "Well-rounded" as you...

...maybe... just maybe.

No offense. I just get sick of people trashing pastors. I've gone to OP churches accross the east coast with the military, prayed for a pastor who preaches the word of God and who preaches a word to meet my needs whatever they may be. He's provided every time.

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Every true Pastor is to teach the whole counsel of God.

Paul said "I have not shunned to teach you the whole counsel of God".

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No jeering from me just the observation that in my 50+ years most of the time people I know that don't go to church use the excuse that the church isn't perfect.

Now the church you attended may be FAR from perfect so the solution would be to find one that is much closer to perfect (though none are perfect) and plug yourself in there to try and make both you and that church better.

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dante, i have similar sentiments. conservative and evangelical churches are preaching a system of belief while mainline and progressive churches are preaching christian lifestyle and a social justice gospel. you need to find an educated leader. i like listening to sermons from the episcopal church, emergent leader brian mclaren, ravi zacharias, darkwood brew, patheos.com progressive channel for blogs. my deepak chopra thread in deep waters has a link for lectures by bible scholars from the episcopal church.

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This is another qualm I have. Why does the church have to be so pastor-centered? Why isn't the church community-centered? If you look at the modern sanctuary and how it is designed, it is very "leader" focused instead of people focused. There is a stage area (often known as the platform or pulpit area), and there is an audience. The focus is on one man...the pastor! He/She is the main event of the service. I thought ministry leadership was a team effort, and not an autocracy?

I could be wrong....

But then again, I could be right!

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A humongous AMEN.

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The thing about this, MTD, is it seems to compare every extant pastor with Paul, who surely had a special anointing; and deny what seems to be "reality," a fungible word for a Christian, I know, but hopefully you get me. Who do you know that sees God so clearly, in every area? Plus, I'm not sure that that is what Paul meant, so much as illuminating that one who follows Christ will have to die to themselves.

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apparently mtd and a select few are the only ones with special revelation and are the only ones who see everything clearly even though the bible says we now see through a glass darkly but then face to face.

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People love the concept of the community centered church... especially those who like to criticize pastors for not preaching the way they want them to.

With all due respect, you're the one who brought up "the pastor" I didn't.

I simply defended a man you criticized because you didn't like his preaching.

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Thus you are defending pastoral-autocracy, or the belief that a local church is governed solely by a single executive.

The fact is, the modern church is America is greatly flawed. Then again, so am I. So are you! We are all flawed. But I know the flawless One, and I am determined to stick with Him, and Him alone.

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No, I'm defending the fact that you're not always right like you think you are.

God forbid the preacher is just doing what God wants him to. But we know that's not the case... because you said so.

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And I defend that you're not always right like you think you are either. The blade cuts both ways, pal. :)

And yes, I have a divine revelation that most pastors do not have. That burden goes along with being a man of great spiritual insight.

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Was on FB this morning and lonely for the church family I left behind...

But I believe you saved me a trip... so thanks for that anyway Dante. I'm not sure what the greater good of your post might be, but it helped me.

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Exactly, and as long as you have that "divine revelation" you'll never be happy at any church...

...because any pastor, preacher, elder, or teacher, simply won't be enough in your view. That's a sad life to live... always being more spiritually enlightened then everyone else.

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It's not sad for me, and I don't think it's sad for anyone else. You're the one who sounds sad and pining for sympathy. Not me, and neither is anyone else who is blessed with the burden of greater spiritual insight.

Look, all I know is God is great, and I love the Lord Jesus Christ. I am confident in my walk with Jesus Christ, and that's all that matters. I know where I stand.

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Great! I'm glad I could help in some way. :)

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The thing is, though, sticking with Him also means loving His people. You can't love God and not love people, and love is an active thing. You don't love people by refusing to be around them. I find it odd that Jesus could fellowship with sinners and publicans and we can't even fellowship with our brothers and sisters if they think, believe or speak something disagreeable.

I think it's great to find a church that suits you; we did that. If the old church doesn't fit you anymore, find a different one. However, it is in God's plan that we fellowship with and worship with other believers. It isn't just about Him; it's about His people, too. The church isn't just God and me; it's God and me and a whole bunch of other people--including the pastors who lack great revelation.

Part of God's amazing plan for the church is that we be unified as a people, and one of the major reasons we can't be unified in the modern church is that folks think they have to agree 100% to attend somewhere. Really, it isn't all THAT spiritual. It's just about worshiping God together, listening to someone expound the Word together and fellowshipping with one another. I don't normally get divine inspiration from church, although it happens occasionally. I get that from my personal walk with God. My own prayer and Bible reading. My own research and study. At church I get community, support, fellowship and both an awareness of and an obligation to people and efforts outside myself. From the pulpit, I get provocation, admonition and conviction; reminders and prompts to better myself as a Christian. Church isn't the spiritual part of our walk with God, IMO. It's the practical part, at least mostly. It's the working part. It's the part that requires time, effort and selflessness.

For that matter, I can worship God in just about ANY body of believers. Of course I prefer to go to an assembly that is more closely aligned with what I believe and my personal values, but I don't go to church so someone there can help orchestrate my relationship with God. That's my own personal thing. It's autonomous. I wonder if people maybe feel that their walk with God is somehow threatened when the church doesn't line up with their personal views... I say make church about being involved with people and outreach and community and charity work and corporate worship/prayer and submitting your ears to someone else's ideas and teachings out of the Word. Find your personal satisfaction in God on your own. Then it won't matter so much if the preaching or teaching isn't up to snuff.

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Word.

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God just wants us to love each other. Amen.

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Is there a post of the year award? :)

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Agreed. But I don't have to limit myself to the social constructs of loving God's people in a specific location. I do love God's people very much. In terms of the Church universal I have no qualms. The Church of Jesus Christ is a beautiful Bride. She is perfect. However, some of her members aren't so much, and I can love God's people without having to take part in a local assembly.


Again, I agree with you here. I do not refuse to be around God's people, sinners, or publicans. I love my fellow brothers and sisters, and I do have fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ, but not in a traditional sense, but I really appreciate your comments.

That's what I've done. I prefer to meet with fellow believers for special gatherings in homes, but not in a traditional church setting.

"Church" is all about Him, so I have to disagree with you here just slightly. I will concede with the idea that fellowship provides a system of encouragement for people who are weak and need healing, but that can just as easily be provided outside of the traditional setting of what calls itself church. When we are guided by the Holy Spirit alone, who needs the guidance of a man? (1 John 2:27)

You made some good points, but I think I've countered them fairly well and do not see the point in furthering this conversation. I will gladly discuss these matters, but the whole point is to love God, and His people, and love yourself.

In the end....love always wins!

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My point is not to be rude, but straight-forward. Dante, fine... you have been blessed with supernatural spiritual insight.. great I'm happy for you.

Unfortunately not all of us have been so blessed. In matter of fact I'm pretty happy I haven't (saying this with a chuckle)...

Anyway... so maybe those of us who haven't been so enlightened need pastors to preach to us in a certain way. Maybe your supernatural insight into all things Biblical has allowed you to no longer need such teaching.

I concede that... hope that works out for you. Here's my problem... you give off this really pompous and arrogant persona. Sure you have this advanced spiritual knowledge, why sit here and criticize pastors and those of us who don't and refuse to fellowship with us because of your superiority and then on top of that complain about it? It just seems foolish. Putting down pastors because they're not as deep as you believe yourself to be. I don't know the pastor, he may very well be a Godly and praying man. I respect men who are prayerful and live holy more then I do men who believe they have exceptional amounts of knowledge. Just my opinion. You impress me with your lifestyle not how much knowledge you can chew swallow and spit up at any given time. That's my point. Knowledge alone won't get you into Heaven...

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It's a trial, Ed, by fire.

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Why is it that the most rude posts always start off with something like "... not trying to be rude..." lol.

I didn't get anything to provoke all this out of what he said... He shared a personal experience of going back to a place that was not satisfactory to him in the past... hoping it had grown... and finding it stagnant. If he'd found it enlightened and progressing toward God and posted that here... well... it would still be the same thing... a personal experience.

Why would you want to respond to a post about a personal experience with a personal attack... as if someone does not have the right to share unless they are sharing what you want to hear? If you were trying to avoid rudeness, you missed your mark. You also did a pretty tidy job of hitting the mark for petty, selfish, holier-than-thou, and mean.

Golly-geeze!

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ok, if (his) name is Ed,
that will really be priceless.

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OOPS

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One significant difference of opinion here. Fellowship, whether in or outside of conventional 'church' is not just for the weak and those needing healing. It is a place where those gifted by God to encourage the weak and help provide healing can exercise those gifts... And by turns and in seasons we all are both at different places in our walk with God. A church that recognizes this and does not set up a model of the presumed strong leading the presumed weak only is the very best kind.

At it's best a group of believers is interested in bringing each member to full maturity in Christ and will realize and respect this. :)

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Amen! There is a very real sense in which once one
becomes "strong" in the human sense, they are worthless to God,
and much can be learned from the "weak."

In a room full of Bible scholars, the best
answers often come from little kids. And dogs.

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How come what you post is *straight-forward* and not rude, but when somebody else posts what they think, it becomes *offensive* to you?

Dante makes a valid point in his experience.

I have never heard a lesson taken from the book of Acts 21 or even the last three verses of the book of Acts. Never heard a lesson from Hebrews 7, James 5:1-6, III John verse 9, St. John 10, I Corinthians 2:1-6, Romans 8:14, Romans 9:1-4, Galatians 4, Titus 1:16, I Corinthians 3:21-23, I Corinthians 2:15,16 and a whole host of other scriptures needed for the church to thrive in these perilous modern times.

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:lol amen.
A hero to _______ is just
a jerk to _______. How
do you know?

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Or hmm, maybe
"the more I learn,
the less I know"
applies here better.

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Fellowship with God is tied into fellowship with his church. Problem some within can make it hard.

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All that matters is that we love the Lord, and we love one another.

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Um, hmm, I'm suddenly realizing that one's avatar matters :lol
(Freddy, is that you?)

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Merc?

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Um... :lol
oh, no, I meant "Kruger," with the avatar. :heeheehee