Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   Fellowship Hall (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Why are you liberal? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=40954)

Timmy 09-27-2012 07:07 AM

Why are you liberal?
 
If you're liberal, why are you liberal?

Titus2woman 09-27-2012 07:23 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Cogito ergo sum

CC1 09-27-2012 02:26 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
To anybody but old time Oneness Pentecostals I am very conservative both religiously and politically.

I am that way religiously because I try to follow the Bible's instruction on being a Christian as best I can and politically because it is the most biblical philosophy of government as well as being the most logical and fair. In my humble opinion you have to have screw loose to buy into the liberal Democrat viewpoint.

MawMaw 09-27-2012 02:30 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
That is something I'll never be
accused of being. :)

bbyrd009 09-27-2012 02:42 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lacey (Post 1190876)
That is something I'll never be
accused of being. :)

You are a liberal :lol

Hoovie 09-27-2012 04:03 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Because I am idiotic?

MawMaw 09-27-2012 07:21 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1190880)
You are a liberal :lol

LOL! :smack

Fiyahstarter 09-27-2012 10:45 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Rips-Dem-Party

bbyrd009 09-28-2012 07:59 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
the unintended consequences here are revealing, imo.

Timmy 09-28-2012 08:09 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191038)
the unintended consequences here are revealing, imo.

You mean like the conservatives who come here and answer the wrong question? :heeheehee

Titus2woman 09-28-2012 08:17 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191038)
the unintended consequences here are revealing, imo.

Do tell... you are always so deep and mysterious...

I'm getting a shallow and plain complex :heeheehee

houston 09-28-2012 08:28 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Where are the liberals?

Aquila 09-28-2012 08:58 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Why am I considered by many to be a “liberal”? What “liberal” values do I have?

I believe that the Bible teaches that it is the responsibility of an entire society to care for the poor, widows, orphans, and strangers. I believe that we see this in the national laws of ancient Israel as delivered to them by God. First, we have the poor tithe that ensured that the storehouse had “meat” for these needy classes. Second, we have gleaning laws that required farmers to leave the corners and the edges of their fields for the poor, widows, orphans, and strangers. Thirdly, usury was forbidden. Fourthly, every generation land was to be returned to the family line from which it originated, thereby preventing the accumulation of land, wealth, and power in the hands of a few aristocrats. Fifth, the king was charged with protecting these rights of the poor. Sixth, indictments against Israel, Judah, and Sodom indicate that part of God’s judgment was on behalf of their neglecting the poor as a people and denying them their rights (gleaning, jubilees, charging usury, etc.). Seventh, there were laws governing the terms and times wherein one might lend to a poor to protect their dignity and wellbeing. All of this is predicated upon the notion that all things belong to God. Nothing is truly ours. We are stewards of our Lord’s resources and charged to ensure that there is equity even for the poorest and most needy in a society.

I believe in the inherent value and dignity of every human being. I do not believe that sexuality is the defining factor of a human being. I do not believe that God “hates” anyone. I believe that we are all fallen and inherently sinful by nature. Therefore, none of us has the right to hate another. I believe that the Bible shows a wide spectrum of human relationships and examples of human love and sexual behavior. I believe that we should be cautious when interpreting various texts so as not to abuse them and use them as a reason to hate. Sometimes the most straight forward explanation of a text isn’t the correct explanation of a text. Sometimes the most complicated explanation of a text isn’t the correct explanation of a text. Each interpretation should be balanced against the nature of God, who is Love. If an interpretation of Scripture doesn’t agree with God’s loving nature, it is to be viewed critically. Believing in the inherent value and dignity of every human being, I believe in equal rights for all human beings.

Given the social climate of today’s politics I’ll list what I believe to be the biblical sex ethic. Biblically forbidden sex practices appear to be:
• Adultery – Sexual activity of a married person outside of the marriage covenant.
• Fornication – Indiscriminant and promiscuous sexual activity of unmarried persons.
• Sodomy – Homosexual rape, male temple prostitution, pagan promiscuity between same genders.
• Incest – Sexual activity with close relatives.
• Rape – Forced sexual activity with a woman.
• Bestiality – Sexual activity with animals.
• Pedophilia – Sexual activity with children.
• Harlotry – Sexual activity as a religious rite or for money and/or power.
• Lust – The desire to actually commit adultery or any other sinful sex act.
The Bible appears to allow for the following sex practices within context:
• Monogamy – Marriage consisting of one man and one woman.
• Polygamy – Marriage consisting of one man and more than one woman.
• Concubines – Mistresses recognized within the marriage covenant.
• War Brides – Arranged marriage with female prisoners of war.
• Levirate Marriage – The marrying of a dead brother’s first wife, even if the living brother was already married.
• Servant Marriage – The arrangement of marriage between servants.
• Eunuchs – Celibates who cannot (or choose not to) copulate with the opposite or same gender.
• Erotic Literature & Poetry – Writings of an erotic nature (Song of Solomon).
• Erotic Entertainment – Erotic dancing (exemplified in Shulamite and her erotic dance before her countrymen as she was carried away with passion).
• Sexual Fantasy – Sexual thoughts about another (exemplified by the Shulamite and her Lover).
The OT ethic on this subject is very interesting considering NT understanding. But the NT was written under the Roman Empire. In Rome polygamy was illegal. So we don't see these issues in the first century. I can't help but wonder however, what if Rome hadn't prohibited the practices of the Jews? Would the NT be more like the OT? Regardless, the NT ethic appears to be an encouragement for monogamy as an example of Christ and the Church (one Lord/one Faith). Given the ambiguity of various subjects of this nature, I believe it should be accepted that multiple interpretations exist within the body of Christ. Given the various forms of marriage and relationships permitted throughout the OT I contend that God isn't so much focused on our sexual behaviors as He is protecting vulnerable individuals from abuse and exploitation. Thus marriage is an institution that primarily protects the dignity and value of human beings who choose to enter a physical relationship wherein they share their own person with another.

I believe in Just War. Therefore, I believe specific conditions must be met prior to engaging in military conflict. What follows are the principles of a Just War:
•A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
•A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.
•A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.
•A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
•The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
•The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.
•The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.
How should a Just War be fought? A war that starts as a Just War may stop being a Just War if the means used to wage it are inappropriate.
•Innocent people and non-combatants should not be harmed.
•Only appropriate force should be used.
•This applies to both the sort of force, and how much force is used.
•Internationally agreed conventions regulating war must be obeyed.

I believe that we are the caretakers of the earth, not the earth’s owners. The Bible contains laws that prohibit armies from destroying fruit trees, eradicating species of animals, the human treatment of beasts of burden, etc. Therefore God’s ethic appears to be that we should value nature and protect its blessings for ourselves and our posterity. Clean water, air, and soil is a family issue in that exploitation, abuse, and pollution endanger human health and life. Given the push for profits and the history of neglecting ethical environmental standards, I believe the government is the best agent through which God’s earth should be protected. To allow various corporations to police themselves with regards to the environment is creating a conflict of interest wherein the fox becomes in charge of the hen house.

I believe in fair trade and labor law. The Bible lays certain standards regarding masters and servants. These laws were designed to protect the inherent human dignity of both masters and servants. This ethic translates into modern labor practice wherein the dignity of the worker and the business are to be respected. I support guilds and unions, and favor a more Distributist society where the power to create personal wealth is best decentralized as opposed to being in the hands of a few corporate aristocrats.

I do not believe in “standards” with regards to personal holiness. I believe that the believer possesses a spiritual oneness with Christ Jesus through the Holy Ghost that is made possible by grace. The believer is to seek to realize and manifest the very person of Christ in their person and character. Therefore “holiness” is becoming like Christ, not abiding by a list of religious rules provided by a denomination or church. Christ commanded only two things that lay the foundation of every ethical commandment in the Bible.
•We are to love God with all our being.
•And we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.
In this, the whole of the law is fulfilled.

Those are the things that might make me appear more liberal than others.

bbyrd009 09-28-2012 10:33 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus2woman (Post 1191051)
Do tell... you are always so deep and mysterious...

I'm getting a shallow and plain complex :heeheehee

God, please make me shallow and plain, then. I just meant all the non-liberals posting about why they aren't liberal, like somebody cares.

Timmy 09-28-2012 10:42 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191070)
God, please make me shallow and plain, then. I just meant all the non-liberals posting about why they aren't liberal, like somebody cares.

You mean I got it right? Again?!? :yahoo

bbyrd009 09-28-2012 11:00 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Lol--guess so. I had missed that.
Sure would love to know why we
can't do a forum upgrade here?
$300? How about if I pay for it all?

Timmy 09-28-2012 11:47 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191082)
Lol--guess so. I had missed that.
Sure would love to know why we
can't do a forum upgrade here?
$300? How about if I pay for it all?

What kind of upgrade? A heresy filter? :lol

Timmy 09-28-2012 11:48 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1191058)
Why am I considered by many to be a “liberal”? What “liberal” values do I have?

. . .

Thanks for posting, Aquila.

Where does the Bible prohibit pedophilia?

Aquila 09-28-2012 02:11 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191088)
Thanks for posting, Aquila.

Where does the Bible prohibit pedophilia?

I believe it is...
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The term "effeminate" is the Greek word "malakos". It means, ""soft, soft to the touch, of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man, of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, or male prostitute". It would definitely condemn pedophiliac practices.

Timmy 09-28-2012 02:16 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1191106)
I believe it is...
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The term "effeminate" is the Greek word "malakos". It means, ""soft, soft to the touch, of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man, of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, or male prostitute". It would definitely condemn pedophiliac practices.

I dunno, maybe. Seems like a stretch, to me. But even so, was it not prohibited until the first century? The OT doesn't address it, far as I know, but it's very specific about certain other practices.

Dedicated Mind 09-28-2012 02:20 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by houston (Post 1191056)
Where are the liberals?

there are only about 5 of us on the forum and as aquila has clearly demonstrated , education and compassion is the difference between a liberal and a conservative.

Aquila 09-28-2012 02:41 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191109)
I dunno, maybe. Seems like a stretch, to me. But even so, was it not prohibited until the first century? The OT doesn't address it, far as I know, but it's very specific about certain other practices.

I think the age of consent, and arranged marriages, back in the ancient world was around 11 or 12... so it might not have been a major social issue.

Aquila 09-28-2012 02:45 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191109)
I dunno, maybe. Seems like a stretch, to me. But even so, was it not prohibited until the first century? The OT doesn't address it, far as I know, but it's very specific about certain other practices.

One might be able to condemn pedophilia under the incest clause:

Leviticus 18:6-18
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 “None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the Lord. 7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness. 9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home. 10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter or of your daughter's daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness. 11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, brought up in your father's family, since she is your sister. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is your mother's relative. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity. 18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

Aquila 09-28-2012 02:47 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191109)
I dunno, maybe. Seems like a stretch, to me. But even so, was it not prohibited until the first century? The OT doesn't address it, far as I know, but it's very specific about certain other practices.

One might also argue against it under the rape clause:

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
25 “But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, 27 because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

Timmy 09-28-2012 03:00 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Or you could just say morality has evolved over time. ;)

Aquila 09-28-2012 03:30 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191121)
Or you could just say morality has evolved over time. ;)

Yes, social mores have evolved over time. And "morality" (how those mores are practiced) has changed with them. For example, women used to be regarded as being whorish women if they didn't wear head coverings. Today, that's not an issue. But the principle of modesty and propriety does remain. We wouldn't let a woman in church topless... unless we were ministering to some native tribe of primitive peoples somewhere.


However, the principle of upholding human dignity, value, and protection from abuse has nearly always been the foundation of all moral teaching in every age.

Timmy 09-28-2012 03:50 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1191125)
Yes, social mores have evolved over time. And "morality" (how those mores are practiced) has changed with them. For example, women used to be regarded as being whorish women if they didn't wear head coverings. Today, that's not an issue. But the principle of modesty and propriety does remain. We wouldn't let a woman in church topless... unless we were ministering to some native tribe of primitive peoples somewhere.


However, the principle of upholding human dignity, value, and protection from abuse has nearly always been the foundation of all moral teaching in every age.

And in most cultures and religions. :thumbsup

trialedbyfire 09-28-2012 09:13 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind (Post 1191110)
there are only about 5 of us on the forum and as aquila has clearly demonstrated , education and compassion is the difference between a liberal and a conservative.

:spit Of all the people to... Lord help me refrain...

bbyrd009 09-29-2012 10:31 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1191087)
What kind of upgrade? A heresy filter? :lol

Lol--no, a la the 316; tags you when quoted, etc. I don't push this here, however, as the powers may have reasons that I'm not privy to for the entrenchment? Apo/Pents are, after all, notoriously allergic to change.

bbyrd009 09-29-2012 10:43 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind (Post 1191110)
there are only about 5 of us on the forum and as aquila has clearly demonstrated , education and compassion is the difference between a liberal and a conservative.

I don't consider myself either one, but have to say that this seems to be verified in travel, of all things, which might be called "education." I see nothing so much as provincialism in conservativ...ness? ism? ity? and wonder what the forum question "If you are a conservative, how far/often have you traveled outside your home town/state" might reveal.

Also, as a "con," it seems like one would pretty much have to own our current economic situation; unless one is deluded into thinking that Presidential actions produce instantaneous results...

stmatthew 09-30-2012 12:44 AM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1190874)
To anybody but old time Oneness Pentecostals I am very conservative both religiously and politically.

I am that way religiously because I try to follow the Bible's instruction on being a Christian as best I can and politically because it is the most biblical philosophy of government as well as being the most logical and fair. In my humble opinion you have to have screw loose to buy into the liberal Democrat viewpoint.

Are you calling me old???


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Cindy 09-30-2012 03:53 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind (Post 1191110)
there are only about 5 of us on the forum and as aquila has clearly demonstrated , education and compassion is the difference between a liberal and a conservative.

So, there are no ignorant and mean liberals?

Cindy 09-30-2012 03:57 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191280)
I don't consider myself either one, but have to say that this seems to be verified in travel, of all things, which might be called "education." I see nothing so much as provincialism in conservativ...ness? ism? ity? and wonder what the forum question "If you are a conservative, how far/often have you traveled outside your home town/state" might reveal.

Also, as a "con," it seems like one would pretty much have to own our current economic situation; unless one is deluded into thinking that Presidential actions produce instantaneous results...

You just need to visit the South more often................:heeheehee

bbyrd009 09-30-2012 09:39 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy (Post 1191526)
You just need to visit the South more often................:heeheehee

:lol
what is a "lib," anyway?
/ (not) con.
Dem? / Rep -even
Saved? / lost :lol
"Let's discover and dwell where we don't agree" :lol
:lol

bbyrd009 09-30-2012 09:42 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
It just misses the point by orders of magnitude.

bbyrd009 09-30-2012 09:44 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Oh--uh, um, which is, ah...
you can't follow Christ and be any of those. Ya.
You would literally have to argue the definitions in the last one.

bbyrd009 10-01-2012 04:38 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
:tumbleweed

Cindy 10-01-2012 05:30 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191638)
:lol
what is a "lib," anyway?
/ (not) con.
Dem? / Rep -even
Saved? / lost :lol
"Let's discover and dwell where we don't agree" :lol
:lol

:toofunny

bbyrd009 10-01-2012 05:43 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
You think that's funny?

Cindy 10-01-2012 05:46 PM

Re: Why are you liberal?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009 (Post 1191861)
You think that's funny?

I think you're funny.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.