Restoration after a moral failure
 

Ms B, your quote above from the other thread got me to thinking about restoration.

I hope to gain some perspective about how UPC and other organizations handle moral failures in their system.

About 28 years ago, my first UPC pastor committed adultery. Like all cases, it split the church. There was a lot of infighting and bickering. People shunned one another because some believed it, others did not. The former pastor denied it right up to the very end... to his congregation. In fact, he never came before the congregation to confess it. We heard it second hand, which caused all the division.

He was confronted by the district superintendent and presbyter without the knowledge of the congregation. He was given a certain amount of time to tell his congregation. Yet, all he said to us was that he preached his guts out for years and that we all were going to have to "get what we need for ourselves". He told us his doctor gave him orders to stay away from stress and that he was going to take 3 weeks off and that nobody should contact him in any way for 3 weeks.

That's the short story from my perspective. There may be more to it than what I know. However, my thoughts are this...

I was told by a UPC pastor that my former pastor is able to do one of two things. He would have to resign that church and he would never be able to pastor another church again in the UPC system.

Or he could ask the congregation for forgiveness and still pastor there, but the people would have to pull out of UPC for that to happen.

My guess was back then, had he asked for forgiveness, the congregation would have retained him as pastor. They loved him that much.

It seems that I vaguely remember being told that he would have to sit down for a time. But I am not sure if that was an option for him since I was told that once adultery is committed, there is no second chance.

Now, my questions are these:

Has the UPC changed it's stance about pastoring and adultery?

Why couldn't restoration to God and to a leadership position happen....at least once after a moral failure? Why cannot UPC give it's pastor's a second chance if they follow a program leading to restoration if they haven't changed this rule ?

Are all OP or trinitarian denominations like this?

What are the restoration processes?

I am just wondering that since the callings and gifts of God are without repentance, how does a man continue to serve God (even after repentance and restoration) if he is not allowed by an organization to preach in the pulpit?

PS..It is not my intention for this to be a bashing an organization post. My wishes are to understand the positions that are being taken by an organization for marital infidelity or in the case of single pastors, fornication and why such positions are taken.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I really can't (and don't) speak for the UPC. I don't take my views on anything from the UPCI manual. I try my best to get them from scripture.

Excellent questions, though. Should be an interesting thread.... :coffee2

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Are you ready, because my brother is a district superintendent with the UPC I happen to know that the UPCI is the only oneness organization that holds this stance on adultery and that headquarters has been reconsidering it's stance with all the embezzling and other junk that has been coming out the past few years. Because many have said how can it be right to "ban" only if he has committed adultery.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Lucy, so by your answer, I am under the assumption that they had and continue to have this stance on adultery?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I believe they do.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Embezzlement is a big problem because some pastors do not see the wrong in taking church monies from one area for their own use. I've heard of at least one church split because of this problem.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

But what is UPC's restoration plan for moral failures?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

It has been under reconsideration for a few years now and most expect it to change.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Here are the official statements from the UPCI and ALJC. I posted a WPF statement as well, but it isn't very detailed and appears to only address the issue of remarriage following divorce:

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Thank you Ms B for posting this.

Does UPC have any writings in their articles of faith about restoration of the sinner? Do they have any plan for restoration or do they just write them off once they sin?

I see that the ALJC has a statement of extending mercy and restoration of fallen pastors to the church.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I have been in the UPCI since I was a baby, and I have never seen anyone write off a repentant sinner. Write someone out of leadership? Yes. Write them off as not being able to be forgiven? No. Even in the most ultra-con church I attended, if someone confessed to a sin and repented, they were met with forgiveness and grace.

As to whether there is some sort of official plan that churches follow for restoration, I have no idea. Since the UPCI isn't planning to restore the minister to his position, this seems like it would fall to the local church or minister's peers and mentors.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Make the office a non paid position. Get rid of the one Pastor system too?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

That would be a more biblical premise, imo since we are to obey them (not him) that rule over you (us).

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I don't know how they do it in other parts of the country, but sometimes over here forgiveness depends upon who you are or who you are connected to.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I wonder if it might help solve some problems like financial fraud.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

You understand that by "forgiveness and grace" I wasn't speaking of restoration to a position...right?

I've never seen simple forgiveness and restoration to the church have anything to do with connections. I HAVE seen restoration to a position of leadership be related to connections and politics. But they aren't the same thing....

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

It might Prax. There seems to be a lot of it going on. Even in podunk mississippi.

And it would help spiritually suffering people in that in a multitude of counselors, there is safety. For some people, there is no council...just do as the pastor says.

Perhaps the church would fare better if there were no paid professional preachers. Just men and women loving God and giving of their time and resources for the poor because the Holy Spirit prompts them to?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Ok, I just now see where this topic has been discussed before. It seemed to have just ended without any real satisfactory answer or even adequate discussion.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...t=37032&page=5

I would like to address this quote "It does seem strange that the NT is virtually silent on the subject of ministerial restoration".

Maybe the Apostles never thought that the church structure they set up would have ended up like todays church structure....being virtually a paid profession.
Maybe not one of the Apostles would have taken filthy lucre for delivering what they have heard from God on?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

You know, it is funny... we'll forgive so many people, but when a preacher falls, there seems to be no forgiveness from the religious sects in Pentecost. My Bible still reas all have snned and come short of the glory of God. If a man has sinned, and that sin is repented of, Go forgives. How dare we put a hand to the Ark of God and say what God can or cannot do through them? Sorry if thi seems like a rant, but I know the power of restoation myself, and have compassion on those whom the Church have cast away. And, let me state this, that one sin isnot greater than another. So, if tey steal, how is it that you'll forgive that, but not a man who has repented sincerely of that moral failure, shows fruit of repentance, and has a call of God on his life?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I'm just trying to figure out why "forgiveness" and "position" are made one and the same thing....

I'm not trying to keep anyone out of their position, mind you. If a congregation wants to keep their pastor, I'm all for it. I don't care. I don't mind. Better that way than the other, in some cases. But why, if a congregation does NOT want the minister back in their position is that equated to a lack of forgiveness? Is that really what it is?

Or is it a lack of trust?

I've had someone close to me treat me abusively. I still love that person. I forgave them. But I wouldn't trust them not to do it again, under the right circumstances. Can you be led by someone you don't trust?

Do you allow a man who embezzled money to be in charge of church finances again? And if not, is that a lack of forgiveness? Should the rules be different for a saint than a sinner? e.g., should a sinner who committed certain sins prior to conversion but not after be treated differently than a saint who committed those same sins after conversion?

I don't see how this is limited to pastors. It would seem to apply to anyone. It's one thing to forgive people; it's another thing to trust them--especially to lead you and your family spiritually. The qualifications for a bishop are all about building trust and respect in the people--and not just the church people. A bishop is supposed to have a good reputation both within and without.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

I am actually writing about this now on my ministry web site. I think that we extend more grace to cold blooded killers than fallen ministers, and that is so sad. God will use who He wants, and again, who are we to put our hands on the Ark and say, "Worthless to ever be used again!"

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Who is saying "worthless....?"

Even on the *other* thread, I don't think anyone is saying that. I doubt if many people feel that way.

All I'm saying is that people lose TRUST; is that the same as not forgiving? It's understandable for a congregation to want someone they can trust implicitly. Or are they all going to hell in a hand-basket for their lack of forgiveness?

I think the people you will find who will be the harshest will be the actual PEERS of the fallen minister; not the saints or community. That's a good question to bring up, perhaps.

I don't understand maligning people, though, for wanting a leader who has a good reputation. Do you truly feel that is wrong?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Shall we look into all of our pasts, and see whether or not we have fallen? The trust issue falls into the grace issue. If a man has shown the fruit of repentance, who are we to say God does not trust such a man. Yes, we do go to Hell in a hand basket for unforgiveness, a lesson it has taken me far too long to understand and see. It is late now, and I am going to bed.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Titus 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

:thumbsup

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Ummm, I don't see the "respect" part in scripture, in fact completely the opposite. Jesus was no respector of persons, why should we be?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Amen!

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Whoa, here you go again, reputation???? Jesus made himself of NO reputation.

WE have done that, we respect one over the other, WE try to make sure our reputations are soiled. WE WE WE. It's wrong.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Question, can a man be such after restoration, or must he be morally perfect and superior all the way through?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

The bible does not say Jesus was not a respecter of persons. Yes Jesus is God but it never says "Jesus is not a respecter of person"

Peter said this

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Truly I see that God is no respecter of persons;

This was in response to the Gentiles ALSO being allowed to enter the church

This was the Victorian english way of saying

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

Peter was saying God was not showing partiality to the Jews but accepts Gentiles too.

This is not about respecting someone

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Sure it is.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Paul said

Rom 13:7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

1Th 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

No Lucy, it's not. Study your bible.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Um, do you care at all about what the Bible says? :blink The BIBLE says that a bishop must have a good reputation, both within and without. I try to take my views from scripture; from where do you form yours?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Yes, in the Biblical sense of the word "reputation" should be good. However, as I am sure you well know, people "in the church" do not always "judge" a persons reputation correctly. It's merely a matter of their opinion. For example, the man in my life who is my bishop, says he doesn't give a care what anybody "thinks" of him. He is going to say what God wants him to say no matter what "people" think or say.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Is a man or woman that cheated on their spouse for 4 years qualifying as having a good reputation?

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 1193253) All I'm saying is that people lose TRUST; is that the same as not forgiving? It's understandable for a congregation to want someone they can trust implicitly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnTraditional (Post 1193254) The trust issue falls into the grace issue. If a man has shown the fruit of repentance, who are we to say God does not trust such a man.

Hello,

There is a difference between forgiveness and trust: forgiveness is freely given of God; trust must be earned. Paul said,

"Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful." (1 Cor 4:1-2 KJV)

"In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy." (1 Cor 4:2 NASU)

When a leader is in a position of trust and they sin, if they confess their sin, God is quick to forgive and to cleanse (1Jn 1:9). However, faithfulness/trustworthiness is not something which is automatically restored when the transgression is forgiven. Trustworthiness MUST be exemplified through a consistent pattern of behavior. This is why Paul said stewards must be found faithful.

This has everything to do with "integrity": uncompromised moral character. When that character has been compromised, it must be rebuilt from scratch. Can such a leader ever be restored again to a position of trust? Perhaps, if he's demonstrated and exemplified the true fruits of repentence. And those fruits are actions born of integrity (uncompromised moral character) which ultimately earn again trust that was lost.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Four years is a long time. It is not merely an indiscretion, but a prolonged act that both involved knew exactly what they were doing. Since he resigned when people found out, it kind of makes me wonder if he is sorry that he committed the 4-year act, or if he is sorry that he was found out? And what about her? Why is everybody so focused on the pastor when she shares equal shame? It's not about him supposedly 'knowing better', since in the eyes of God he really is no better than 'her'.

But this man's motive or what he did is neither here nor there in my questioning how the church system treats its fallen.

What I want to know is why can't a man, who has committed adultery be restored into some sort of ministry if he truly is repentant and forgiven by God?

Geesh....I knew a minister who was in prison and admitted from the pulpit raping, robbing and killing other prisoners before he repented and obtained forgiveness from God. This man was given a UPC license.

I understand what Ms B is trying to say about trust. I mean, even if the congregation forgave and retained the minister to be pastor, his indiscretion would never be forgotten. The first time he tries to administer council that somebody else does not agree with, his indiscretion will be thrown into his face for sure. In this case, he would have to leave the area.
I also agree that forgiveness, restoration to God and position are different things.

Which leads me to believe that positions in the church system should be eliminated and that all men who are seriously studious of the Word and have the indwelling Holy Spirit should minister to the people, freely, without payment. The people can still vote righteous men to handle building finances and use the rest for benevolent funds to feed and clothe people in the name of Jesus.

jmho, which usually doesn't mean anything to anybody else.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

Well? I never see where God changed his opinion of David.

Re: Restoration after a moral failure
 

David was a King. We aren't talking about a king. We are talking about Pastors