Ministering to the Transgendered
 

A "transgendered" person is someone who is undergoing the change from one sex to another. They have either completed the process, or are in the middle of a series of surgeries to complete the process of changing from one gender to another.

With that said...

A pastor friend of mine shared with me a time when he was approached by a couple on his church who had been faithful members for a number of years. This couple was a model example of Christian virtue. They were active in the church, and well respected.

One day, the couple come to the pastor for a private meeting. In this meeting it is revealed that Mrs. So-And-So is really a man who went through a change several years prior to being a woman. This was a secret that the couple had for a number of years.

As to when the husband found out that his "wife" used to be a guy was not relayed to me, but the pastor did tell me that the couple were having issues, because the husband could not come to grips with the fact that his wife was a transgendered person (used to be another man). Now, the couple was locked in a legally binding marriage.

My pastor friend was dumfounded and did not know how to handle the situation, but tried his best to share with them God's love as best as he could.

I have lost contact with that pastor friend, and I never found out the outcome of that situation, but a few questions come to mind that I think bare serious scriptural consideration.

1. If a transgendered person becomes born again, should they reverse their transition if they completed it? Obviously if they have not completed the transition they should cease doing so, but what should someone do in the event they have already completed their transition from one gender to another?

2. If a transgendered person becomes legally married, and converts to Christ, should that couple divorce?

Does anyone care to try and tackle this dilemma? How do you share God's love with these people, yet stress the natural order that God placed in motion at creation?

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

I am transfinancial. I was born one way but in my mind I honestly believe that it is the other way. I do expect the government to assist me so that I can live an honest life based on the financial situation I KNOW I am in my head. I took the first step by buying an expensive car but the government will need to assist me with the rest. If people don't understand this, they are just prejudiced and intolerant.

In all seriousness, this subject boggles my mind. I am open-minded to the idea that people are attracted to the same sex, however am not open-minded when they are genetically and scientifically one gender and decide that they are something else in their brain. (hermaphrodites are an entirely different discussion).

Especially since there have been a couple of different stories in the media where a female had her breasts surgically removed and based on that alone can now claim legal status as a male, and there was even a story very recently where some prisoner in the US was getting a sex change operation paid for by the government. Ridiculous, in my opinion.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

I think each situation is somewhat different. There are people who are born with ambiguous genitalia who at some point must choose their gender. God did not choose it for them and they don't know what they were from birth. A parent may have raised them one way and then they choose another.

That said, with some, it seems more cut and dried. However, I wonder with all the stuff being injected into our bodies, all the hormones they are putting in foods, all the GMO stuff, all the toxins in the air, all the pharmaceuticals in the water and I think we have to consider that there may be a biological/chemical reason people are confused about what gender they are. It may not be as cut and dried for some as it once would have been before our modern environment.

And of course there are people who are just perverted. However, I think there is a valid and scientific reason for compassion. None of this is easy.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Amen; but celibacy is. All the rest is
the result of sin. If one counseled
(which is against Scripture, anyway-
-the Holy Spirit is your counselor)
anything, it should be these, imo.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

So the husband feels deceived? No kidding, how could he not tell all those years?

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

No kidding, indeed. Romantic love is truly blind, in a way that true love is not. Funny, I'm reading about this right now. Romantic love, like a lot of present-day misconceptions, was invented in the middle ages, and many societies still do not even have it. It is almost exclusively a first-world construct? Hmm.

Um... do you really want to know?

The penis is inverted. Nerves are kept intact. The intimacy is "real." Adams apple is shaved.

Want more details?

Depending on the age... if he became a woman when he was young it'd be hard to notice. For many males, prominent male features (defining bone structure) don't really develop until mid 20's.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

As ILG said there are many factors that leave us without a solid answer. I worked in endocrinology for eight years and saw many patients that were born neither completely male nor female. I have also talked with patients with severe gender identity issues. All are not homosexual as in the case of a genotypically male (XY) who had been surgically resexed to female in childhood (easier to build a girl) and was now lesbian (by most people's standards).

I believe that God is genderless and so are our spirits. Our job is to love people regardless of their gender and the way to minister to the transgendered is the same as the way to minister to any other human. To share the message of God's love and let them and God work out the rest. Inserting our personal opinions into another person's life is just not required by God or needed by them. We do not have to be anyone's Holy Spirit... and I am personally thankful for that!

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Excellent theological / ethical question. I am eagerly awaiting the various opinions.

The only thing that clearly and quickly jumps out to me is that it would be impossible for someone to reverse the surgery I believe. However they could stop taking hormones that unnaturally change many of the aspects of their gender.

My gut instinct is that a man deceived into marrying a transgendered person should have a right to divorce. Have not thought it through biblically yet. Having said that form a practical standpoint I have a really hard time believeing you could not tell. Maybe in a few instances but not many. I have seen transgendered persons before and had no problem telling what they were. Maybe they just didn't have enough money for the "deluxe" surgery package that shaved the adams apples, etc. Or maybe they did not have as slim petite build to start with. Most times it is the adams apple and large manly hands that are a dead giveaway.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

If I were a male and married what I thought was a woman, and assuming she did not tell me that she used to be a he and is now a she, I would consider that to be deception on the he-she's part.

This next portion is just my thoughts, not being critical nor accepting of this situation.

I cannot imagine the shock the husband felt when he found out. I cannot imagine the pastor's shock when he was told what the couple's issues were.

I would think that if the husband could not come to grips about his "wife's" original male gender, it is quite possible that he learned it after marriage. Had he learned it before, perhaps he would not have had the issues he currently has or may have just realized the predicament they are spiritually in. It is quite possible that before they come to know Christ, he thought nothing about it, but became convicted of the entire nature of this situation after his conversion.

I agree with CC1 that I highly doubt that the surgery could be reversed as I think that the one having the surgery is counseled beforehand by the physician that it would be permanent.

A biblical marriage (what God hath joined together) and a legally binding marriage are two different things. Back in biblical times, a marriage contract was made between families and government had nothing to with it. Once a man and woman had sexual relations, they 'consummated' their marriage and it was final. For divorce, all that was required by Moses was a writ of divorce into her hand from the husband. Today, a couple must go through the government's legal steps application (permission or license) to marry or to the courts to obtain divorce. In the government's legal process, God has nothing to do with it's laws concerning marriage. A couple could go through the biblical method of marriage, but the property they acquired during the union would not be subject to legal marital protection once they decide to split unless deeds and property were in both names. Sad, but true.

So the question would be for this couple....did God join these hands together in marriage?

Now I would think that if the husband found out after they married that she used to be a he and he was having issues with the marital bed and just could not reconcile himself to that thought or act once he knew the truth, then why should any pastor counsel for them to remain legally married when originally she was a he and did not tell her mate beforehand? Why should a man be bound in a marriage that started out deceptively in the worse way? I am thinking that genetically, she still is a he and is only considered by a secular court to be female through artificial means. (estrogen, surgically altered)

Is a person bound by a marital vow in the eyes of God that was deceptively and subtly and for lack of a better word, coerced? (Somebody please provide a better word) Is it really a vow if he was under the impression that he was marrying a genuine female?

If it is a case where he had no strong feelings about it and knew he would be marrying a transgendered person, then became spiritually convicted after his conversion, would God hold that against them if they divorced? That would be something that the two of them, along with prayer to God would have to seek His face about what to do. No man put them into this situation and no man can counsel them out of this situation.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

start a transgender church watch it double eevry year

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

I would not blame a person for divorcing in this situation. I think it should be their choice.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

What a mixed up world we live in. :wacko




http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/t...legal-planning

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

I do not blame anyone for divorcing ever. It's again one of those things that they have to reconcile with God not with me. If someone seeks my counsel about divorce that has not yet taken place I try to help them with the biblical view of divorce, then they must decide. If it has already taken place and reconciliation is not possible there is forgiveness at the cross.

The deception is huge on many levels if this husband was not aware before the marriage but there are just so many things we do not know such as was this person willfully transgendered or did she undergo an operation or series of operations in childhood to turn her genitalia into something recognizable as female gender from something neither male nor female? Either way the husband had a right to know and for me the deception is a much larger problem then the genitals.

Sadly I've met a young woman who was not told by her parents until just before she was to marry that she had been surgically resexed to female in childhood, when she disclosed to her fiancee, he left her.

This is not nearly so rare as many people think.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

What a sad situation for this person not to have known before she fell in love. This was way beyond her control. But, she did the right thing by telling her fiancé before they married. And now she needs the time to sort out her own feelings.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

That wasn't necessary. Good grief.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Do you often call people liars? Generally if someone poses a question about something just for conversations sake they say so...

Also this happens all the time. If he had replaced pastor with 'psychiatrist' would that have made it more real?

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Yeah. Sad.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

As this sin (it is a sin) becomes more common, I would not be at all surprised to see people who have done this needing our help. If they have repented, and received the Holy Ghost, They should do everything they can to correct their actions. God does not, in cases of easily recognized gender, reassign gender just because of a series of surgeries. Therefore, He did not approve the union of the two in marriage. Thus, they should obtain a legal divorce. All possible measures possible should be taken to reverse the reassignment surgeries. If this is not entirely possible, gently they should be reminded that sin sometimes leave permanent scars in our minds, emotions, spirits, and bodies. Above all, they should be guided with gentleness and care as this has become a large part of who they are, and it may take quite sometime to obtain deliverance from the mindset that they have been imprisoned in.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Is it a sin for someone to be born without genitals of either sex and the doctors make the person a female because it is surgically easier and then that person was raised as a female because men choose the person's gender and that person then grows up and says "I am a man?"

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Once is enough.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Not so absurd. It happens more often than people think. I was floored when I first watched these things, but it made me much more compassionate about these issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ITuu...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQESP...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHQJm...feature=relmfu

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

It happens often enough that working for nine OBs for the past 12 years we have delivered several intersex children. If you'd like to see more accurate statistical data here is a decent link. Since there are many different intersex conditions with varying degrees of severity and since it is often 'missed' at birth and or under reported the stats are not perfect and it is probably more common then even they report. Things are not always as simple as they appear.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Oh and by the way some of these people are not even genetically male or female as we would understand it. There is much to learn about what it is to be human and we are often very simplistic in our ideas which lead us to be harsh in our judgements.

I believe that God made these people and they are as valuable as you or I.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Some people who look female have male chromosomes.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

This really happened.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

You are very slow and your math is extremely weak...possibly up to 1 in 100 if all types of intersex are counted.

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They have been posted in the link above for the past two or more hours. This will be your second serving of humble pie in this thread... full yet?

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Looking over what you posted in the link, I have to wonder how much of this is caused by the toxins and pollutions in our environment? Something has to be disrupting the development or causing the deformities of the fetus in utero.

I remember reading where studies have been done in lactating women and jet fuel chemical was found to be in breast milk.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

OK I have another minute to dedicate to this. Although the original poster does not personally know this couple so we can't really get details, here is why I immediately suspected the wife was an inter-sexed person rather than just a transsexual.

Transsexuals who undergo gender reassignment surgery have a lot of prerequisites. They must have psychological as well as psychiatric evaluations, they usually undergo therapy to help with the adjustments. They have to have a support system, which is usually found in the GLBT community. They usually do NOT go out and do something as stupid as marry a straight man by lying to him about having been born a woman. While it's not impossible, it's just not likely.

OTOH intersexed people were often at least partially surgically resexed in childhood, may never have gotten full disclosure from their parents or their doctors about what the exact nature of their 'problem' was/is, etc. This can lead to just these kinds of disasters. Some have never been told they are sterile and come to the doctor looking to find why they can not conceive. Some know they can not bear children but do not know why. Some have been given hormones for years and told they were vitamins and only find out when they go to college.

The older a person is the more likely that this is how their situation was handled. Even genetic males (XY) with micropenis used to be surgically changed to female (easier to build, remember?) and raised as girls. Most would have never thought of themselves as men until at some point they had to be told for some reason. Some were already married when that came to light. Heck, in the old days we didn't even tell kids they were adopted... let alone that they had to be surgically fixed to have 'normal' sex organs. Try to imagine your Me-maw or Paw-paw having that talk with one of your aunts or uncles.

We need to reserve judgement unless we fully understand the situation and unless we are the husband or wife of a person who has had gender reassignment it really falls under the category of none of our business. We do as a society need more education so that those who are born with intersex can be accepted as they are until/unless they decide to change their bodies. They have enough to deal with and so do their parents without us being hurtful in our ignorance.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

ha we are chlorided, fluorided, ... it only makes sense to the ruler of this world to have you as sick as possible. Count on it. We legally allow, by law, like 250 million pounds of toxic waste into the water supply every year. Gee i wonder why people are being born with yadayada, and can't figure out what sex they are.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

Yeah byrd and the EPA has raised the "allowable" amount of radiation in our food supply as well as the deadly toxin called "mercury" one can consume by mouth or needle.

Re: Ministering to the Transgendered
 

ha only if you let them.