Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

So, there once came a missionary to the UPC church I go to who in the heat of his sermon walked to the window pulled the blinds and said, in effect, "I see bulldozers! God is gonna grow this church! A mighty revival starts here!" He was undoubtedly referring to the new building this church is saving for.

What puzzles me is how we teach that Jesus could return at any moment, and yet hold fast to prophecies like this one that are "no doubt" from God. How could Jesus return at any moment if God is planning on giving this church a new building? It seems like Jesus' any-moment return is put on hold until this prophecy is fulfilled.

So, Christ wont return until we at least see bulldozers in the lot, right?

Think about any prophecy you've heard and compare it to the idea that Christ return is soon. Anybody else wonder about the trustworthiness of these kinds of prophecies?

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I think we need balance. The way I understand the Bible Jesus could come and catch away His Bride at any moment we should anticipate that and be prepared. However, if He doesn't come until next week, or next month, or next year, we should plan for that also.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I don't believe "prophesies" in the sense that Paul was writing about it in 1 Cor. 14 has anything to do with "future" events, or foretelling. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:3 "But he that prophesieth speath unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

There are three criteria here to prophesying:
1. Edification.
2. Exhortation.
3. Comfort.

There is nothing here about foretelling future events.

So, first of all, under the above criteria outlined by the Apostle Paul, I would not consider what that missionary said as "prophesy". Now, if he had said, God wants to encourage this congregation to reach out to sinners who have not yet come into the fold... or something of that nature... (just an example) that to me, would be more in keeping with prophesying, because it is edifying, exhorting, and comforting the body of Christ, all in the same time, without foretelling a future event.

Now, if you look at the gift of the word of knowledge... that may be more in keeping with the words spoken by the man you quoted. Of course, all words of knowledge are subject to scrutiny for their truthfulness. Only God could foreknow if such an event were to take place, and if it doesn't, then the word of knowledge was false.

I Cor. 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit."

Just my thoughts...

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I agree that prophecy is to edify (build up), exhort (stir up) and comfort (lift up or cheer up) but we have an instance where a man prophesied the future in Acts 11:27-30 and where that same man and others did also in Acts 20:22-24 and 2:10-14

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

True, yet it could have been prophesy with a word of knowledge/wisdom.

Paul is the only writer in the NT who speaks of these things, and actually labels them, and gives directions concerning them. No other writer in the NT takes on the gifts of the spirit, tongues, and prophesying in a deeper study, as does Paul. And it is only to the Corinthians that we receive any insight at all. The rest of his books deal very little with the gifts of the spirit, prophesying, and tongues.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

:thumbsup

The secret to a good prophet is to use as much symbolism as possible as well as packing in a ton of of these same symbols into the prophecy itself. The reason is is that symbols can ALWAYS be interpreted after the fact to mean what actually took place and by making it detailed people remember the accidentally 'hits' while conveniently forgetting the misses.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I heard a man recently say.....


We are living in the last of the last of the last days!

Then turned around and began to talk about the next generation and the church of tomorrow!

No consistency!

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Sorry folks, I hate to break the bad news, but there is no “ immanent return” of Jesus.

We will have to go thru a Religious Persecution, which is forming against us right now. As well as the start of the Great Tribulation, which I don’t believe we will have to endure very long. No where in the Bible does it tell us how long the GT lasts, except that the time will be shortened.

I hate to put this on here and run, but I have to get ready to be gone for about 2 weeks. I will take my laptop with me, and hopefully I can use it.

The Rapture is, The First Resurrection, and this is after the Persecution. I wish that I was wrong on this, but I have studied this for over 50 years, and I see no way around the Persecution facing us. Which will come from the One World Religion.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I just read Samuel's Post, and yes "the innenent return," came from Darby and a girl named McDonald, that had a dream or a vison.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Hmm, just like you got "Rapture!" :lol

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Whether or not its prophecy or word of knowledge doesn't seem to make much difference. I mean I get your point but this guy made a claim about the future and so have a ton of others and yet they all claim Christ could return tomorrow. How does that even work? Take this one I just recently heard. A girl I know was prophecied over that she would sing to millions and bless even more. So until those millions plus are blessed by her voice, Christ is on hold.

Either the teaching that Christ's return could be any day is false, or we have a bunch of annointed false prophets parading around. And nobody is concerned about it? Its like oh he just misspoke. Don't question the annointed of God.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

If the word of knowledge/wisdom, or prophecy does not come true, obviously it is false. Christ is not sitting around waiting for these things to happen. His body is alive and well, and doesn't depend on one's word of prophecy/wisdom.

As far as not "questioning", I would definitely be in your shoes! Truly I believe that prophecy has become far more than what God intended for it to be after Calvary.

Truly the law and the prophets were until John (Luke 16:16) and then Jesus fulfilled completely the law, and now his spirit speaks to our hearts individually.

I believe that the type of prophecy that we saw in the OT was changed at Calvary, and the Day of Pentecost, and now Christ speaks to our own hearts individually through the Comforter, His Spirit indwelling us. When a prophecy or a Word of Knowledge comes, it should be to CONFIRM something that the spirit has already been dealing with us about. Agabus came to Paul with a word of knowledge and prophecy... but Paul had already heard from God before this, and knew it was a confirmation that he was to go, because first he had already heard the Spirit speak to him.

So, I think this demonstrates that prophecy or a word of knowledge/wisdom comes to us as a confirmation of what the Spirit has already been dealing with us personally about. I don't believe it is necessary for prophecy to foretell future events, because in my opinion, just as you are stating, most of these "prophecies" never come true, are false, and simply emotionalism. (not to say that there are words of knowledge/wisdom that never come true... because I do believe Christ does speak to us in that way also... they just need to be weighed for their truthfulness, and judged) .

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Joe wrote,
Either the teaching that Christ's return could be any day is false, or we have a bunch of annointed false prophets parading around. And nobody is concerned about it? Its like oh he just misspoke. Don't question the annointed of God

Joe, I am very concerned about it. The teaching is false. And we are supposed to question Prophecies.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Not only are we to question them but a prophet is to be 100% accurate.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Or else!

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Well, we have a bunch of false prophets, no doubt.
I think the antichrist has to stand in the holy place
and proclaim himself God, before Christ returns?
But that is no doubt debatable, like everything else :lol

nice

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Sorry; but it is to the point.
Ezekiel 13:18-21

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

AMEN

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

1 John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Deuteronomy 18:22

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Hugh Ross's favorite verse and the one he wrote when he signed a book for me.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Hello,

If the prophecy was truly of the Lord then it will come to pass, and it will come to pass before the coming of the Lord. There are prophecies of Scripture yet to come to pass before Christ's return, and this is why the Imminent Return doctrine is not biblical.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

While I agree with you on most of this post, I must ask where does it say Isreal is yet waiting to be restored. Only those that rejected him, Christ, were not part of the body of Christ, and they were destroyed by God with their Holy City and Temple. All others have the same opportunity to become part of the Body of Christ as any other human on earth, whether they be Jew or Gentile, male or female.

Sorry I don't believe there is a comming restoration of Nation Isreal to God as the nation was never seperated from God in salvation. Only the Gentiles were added. How else do you explain that the Gospel was preached first to the Jew then to the Genitile. The first converts to Christianity were the Jews. Gentiles were not even preached to until the Gospel was first preached to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria then to the utermost part of the world.

Please tell me where the nation of Isreal was exluded from the body of Christ. If you are still looking for the kingdom of God to be an earthly kingdom ruled from natural Isreal with the nation of Isreal as primary source, God already did that for about 4 thousand years before the advent of Christ. Now God rules in the temple of our hearts, the forever plan of God. God is not going to go back to a earthly rule, that would be going back wards, and God does not go back wards.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

In order for you to NOT believe in the Biblical Restoration of Israel would be to reject too many OT prophecies and even the teaching of the Apostle to the gentiles.

Several passages attests to the recovery of Jacob, their gathering to the Father's Love, the receiving of Messiah, the destruction of the nations [goyim] that threaten the Chosen Nation.



Ro 11:1-36

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


Shalom

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

samuelofisrael
My point exactly how can one restore what has not been rejected.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The very opeining statment of this chapter states, the very opposite of what you are trying to prove. While God may destroy a portion or part of Isreal that are in disobediance to him.
"Isreal has been blinded in part" what part was blinded? Those that crucified the Lord and rejected him. Those are the ones God destroyed, the rest of Isreal were no more blinded than you and I are when the Gospel come to us and we reject it out of hand.

While you referance OT prophecies as needing to be fulfilled, must I remind you that according to Christ his comming fulfilled all the prophecies of the OT.

The problem I see is that as with Isreal at the time of Christ they were looking for a litural physical fulfillment. The lamb laying with the lion. the nation of Isreal trading places with Rome as world dictators. This was never the intention of God.

God's kingdom is not one that rules in the manner of dictatorship, God's kingdom rules from the throne of Love in the heart of his creation.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

All OT prophecies have been fulfilled? Nothing remains to be fulfilled?

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

No Sam I don't believe there are any OT prophecies that have not been fulfilled. I believe we in the western world get too wrapped up in litural fulfillment of things, when OT prophecy was written with Jewish idioms and symbolism.

What was the primary reason the religious leaders of Christ day did not accept him as Messiah? According to every scripture I read Christ fulfilled everything OT prophecy stated he would do. I believe they rejected his because they were carnal looking for a earthly throne, not a spiritual kingdom. They as do we want God to come wipe out all those that oppose Christianity. Only those men wanted God to wipe out those that opposed Judism. This was never God's intention, "for God so love the (whole) world".

We look for this while at the same time we have not learned the very basic principle Jesus taught us "Love your nieghbor as ourselves" , we can't even love our fellow Christian that has a differing oppinion as us. Let along Love God with our whole heart mind and soul.

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Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Don't have much time this morning, but would like to direct your attention to the verse you referance in Hebrews.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Has Christ not entered heaven already, to offer himself? Paul says he has entered heaven, not only that but Paul states this is the end of the world. What world?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This verse states Christ appears to each and every one of us that lood for him. Not some reapearing at the end, the end has already come as Paul stated. Christ appears to you and I and each and every one that looks for him, Jew and Gentile the same.

Did God cut all the branches from the Olive tree? No he did not as seen by the many Jewish converts in the early church. God cut the bad branches off and destroyed them, just as he said he would. Ie Jerusalem destruction, and temple.

Today God appears to anyone that looks for him.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Nope.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Godsdrummer do you not believe in any moment now rapture?

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I was taught the abomination of desolation
had to occur first; but I now pretty much
believe as GD does.

I think 'rapture' is pretty well covered
at Ezekiel 13:18-20. Another passage
you'll never hear preached in a Pent church.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

What does that have to do with the rapture?

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Sorry but I do not. The Cross was the focal point of the whole bible. This we have been taught over the centuries. I have come to see the resurrection to be to the OT saints, those that sleep in the promise of the comming redeemer, these the bible says God will not leave in Hades. The rest of those that God resurrected were those that died during the transition period from the cross to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple and all those that opposed his kingdom. All those that crucified him and did not repent, keeping instead the sacrificial system, which had become an abominaiton in the eyes of God after the cross. These, "waxed worse and worse" even to killing the early Christians.

We see a parralell, in Christ kingodom and the kingdom of David, as Christ was anointed king at his baptism, so was David anointed King in his youth, it was 40 years before David took the throne, having first to conquor his enemies. Christ took 40 years to establish his kingdom, then destroying his enemies. At which time he gathered all the saints that had died from the beginning of time till then, ruling from New Jerusalem from above which had come down.

Herein lies the problem, those that still look for a physical kingdom, when the kingdom of God did not come by observation. It is spiritual. Passages are quoted like "Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Looking for this to lituraly happen, yet in this same passage we read.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Now let me ask you has the Spirit of God been given? Jesus spoke of giving water to the Samaritain women where one would never thirst again. So if these living waters, the Holy Ghost has been poured out, that so had the judgment of God, and so has the New Jerusalem from which the living waters flow.
Just as the living waters (the out pouring of God's spirit) is not a litural river that flows from a litural city called Jerusalem in some Eastern country. Neither are many of the other types and idioms that are use by the prophet as he wrote these words.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

In continuation of my last post, we see that the writters of OT prophecy spoke of two or more times almost in the same sentance. Judgment and blessing. Many of these were acts of God that happened side by side. On one hand God is blessing those that love him, and judging those that disobeyed him.

We see this clearly on the day of Pentecost, when Peter Quotes Joel, speaking of the pouring out of God's spirit on one hand, then quoting the judgement to come to those that rejected this great promise. While we accept the first half was fulfilled, the pouring out of God's spirit, we reject that the other part of the prophecy was fulfilled in Peters life time. Why is this. When Peter spoke these words he stated "this is that which was prophecied" and procceded to quote the whole prophecy, including the judgement parts. It was from this he spring boarded into his message that caused 3000 to accept the Gospel that day. Read it for yourself.

With the above being said the New testament writters were no different, writting about more than one happening side by side. We see this in Thess. 4. Paul speaks of two different times, one the raising of the dead in Christ, and our own death.

We want to tie these two to the same time. But that is not what Paul is saying at all. Note the wording.

Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God will bring them with him, who? Those that sleep, (those dead in the faith) What will happen to them? God will bring them with him. When?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then what happens?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This word "together" also means "in like manner" or "close association" now we in the western world have come to read it as "at the same time", but remembering that the writers frequently spoke of two different things in the same passages. I feel that Paul is speaking of two happenings. The dead in Christ and all OT saints that slept raised at the time of his comming in judgement at the time of the final destruction of Jerusalem. And the then, when those which are alive and remain are caught up in close association to those that rose in the first resurrection.

We are caught up when we die. This does not take away anything from the promises of God at all. The only thing it does is secure our salvation and take away the fear of death. For as Paul states "now judgment begins at the house of God" To me this means we have been judged when by faith we enter the kingdom of God. We don't die without hope, the blood of Christ has washed all of our sin, and we stand before God calling him Aba father. We don't have to stand before a white throne judgment, we have been changed. This mortal has put on imortality, as Peter and Paul both state we dwell in a tabernacle of flesh in this life. But we have a tabernacle prepared for us when we die.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

Thank you I read all of them from chapter 10-14, it all comes from perspective. How are you seeing them and from what perspective. See I cannot anymore see God fulfilling one part of a prophecy and not the whole within the time frame given. As for the anology of your compass, a compass only works when one finds true north. I feel for most of my life my compass was stuck on something other than true north. And that was not just points of prophecy either.

I found I was stuck in the rut of religions traditions, vain deciet and philosophy after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. When I got my compass unstuck so to speak, my perspective changed, I began to see the forest because i got my eyes off the trees, so to speak.

I don't appoligize, I could not change back to the way I used to see things, God has become more real to me than I ever thought he could be, in my previous 45 years. And trust me I was filled with his spirit at the age of 7 baptized in his name at the age of 10 and have been in minstry most of my life in one way or the other. From playing drums to starting a church. I know from whence I came, and where I am going.

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

I currently have a migraine and cannot read all posts in the thread, but it intrigued me enough to open it and read a few.

I remember a teaching and will have to look it up, but it stated that Jesus would not return until the temple in Jerusalem had been rebuilt.

Am I off in that?

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

2 Cor. 6:16-17

Built in Acts 2, in Jerusulem :D
Built it to last this time...

Re: Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return
 

You are right there is a teaching that teaches that. But there is no scripture that acctualy says that. Instead they alude to it when they teach in the anti-christ. See according to them the anti-christ must desecrate the temple. And in order for that to happen there must be a temple. No temple no abomination of desolation by an anti-christ.