Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Well, even if you don't claim to be a Bible scholar, I would love to hear your thoughts on this one. :)

Two questions:

1. If someone were to ask you the most solemn scripture in the NT, what would it be? The one scripture that stops you in your tracks, and makes you consider your ways, and perhaps change them?

Personally, in the NT, the scripture that always causes me to tremble, is the one where Jesus says... Depart from me, I never knew you. I never want to hear that from my Lord.

2. What is the most compelling solemn scripture in the OT?

This question/scripture below is the real premise for this post. I have never completely understood it, and would love to hear all points of view on this one.

The scripture I am referring to is actually the entire last chapter of Isaiah, Isaiah 66. If you read the entire chapter, and the one before it to get context, it is helpful.

I will post the last part of it, and highlight the part that I don't understand.

Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

What is the significance of the phrase "they that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abominations, and the mouse, shall be consumed together." ?

All thoughts, opinions, and scripture backed references welcomed. Thanks!

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

A reference to Ashtera worship,
Ashtera poles. Idol worship.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

What time period do you think this is told about?

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Thoughts anyone else?

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

It's law against Christmas trees and eating ham.......:heeheehee

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

:smack Sigh. Groan...

I guess no one wants to venture a thought?

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Really? How so... ?

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Kept, You got it, as the most awful thing to hear. I don’t want to ever hear this either.

Depart from me, I never knew you. I never want to hear that from my Lord.

And the second one,
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory

I believe this is just after the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty

When the One World Religion is made the official Religion of the One World Government, it will basically be all Pagan Religions combined. At the time of the Battle, the Church will be gone, and there wull be 2 groups of people left on the earth.

1. The Woman, Israel of Rev 12, which God has been protecting in the Wilderness for 3.5 yrs.
2. And those worshiping the Beast. Although, their first allegiance has to be toward the Beast, evidently they haven’t left their Pagan worship. It could be tree worship, like we see the tree huggers today. But I believe the telltale sign, is the ‘mouse’ Not sure where it is, but I believe there is something else in the OT, concerning the mouse.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Renee,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it.

To paraphrase your thoughts, you believe that the Gentile church will have already been taken out of the earth, and this passage is referencing the Israelites who are left on the earth?

I have gone to the Jewish version of the OT to see how their translation reads. I will post it here....

Isaiah 66: 1 "Heaven is my throne," says ADONAI, "and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house could you build for me? What sort of place could you devise for my rest?
2 Didn't I myself make all these things? This is how they all came to be," says ADONAI. "The kind of person on whom I look with favor is one with a poor and humble spirit, who trembles at my word.
3 Those others might as well kill a person as an ox, as well break a dog's neck as sacrifice a lamb, as well offer pig's blood as offer a grain offering, as well bless an idol as burn incense. Just as these have chosen their ways and enjoy their disgusting practices,
4 so I will enjoy making fools of them, and bring on them the very things they fear. For when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear. Instead they did what was evil in my sight and chose what did not please me."
5 Hear the word of ADONAI, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers, who hate you and reject you because of my name, have said: 'Let ADONAI be glorified, so we can see your joy.' But they will be put to shame."
6 That uproar in the city, that sound from the temple, is the sound of ADONAI repaying his foes what they deserve.
7 Before going into labor, she gave birth; before her pains came, she delivered a male child.
8 Who ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Is a country born in one day? Is a nation brought forth all at once? For as soon as Tziyon went into labor, she brought forth her children.
9 "Would I let the baby break through and not be born?" asks ADONAI. "Would I, who cause the birth, shut the womb?" asks your God.
10 Rejoice with Yerushalayim! Be glad with her, all you who love her! Rejoice, rejoice with her, all of you who mourned for her;
11 so that you nurse and are satisfied by her comforting breast, drinking deeply and delighting in the overflow of her glory.
12 For ADONAI says, "I will spread shalom over her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried in her arm and cuddled in her lap.
13 Like someone comforted by his mother, I will comfort you; in Yerushalayim you will be comforted."
14 Your heart will rejoice at the sight, your bodies will flourish like newly sprouted grass. It will be known that the hand of ADONAI is with his servants; but with his enemies, his fury.
15 For - look! - ADONAI will come in fire, and his chariots will be like the whirlwind, to render his anger furiously, his rebuke with blazing fire.
16 For ADONAI will judge all humanity with fire and with the sword, and those slain by ADONAI will be many.
17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves in order to enter the gardens, then follow the one who was already there, eating pig meat, reptiles and mice, will all be destroyed together," says ADONAI.
18 "For I [know] their deeds and their thoughts. "[The time] is coming when I will gather together all nations and languages. They will come and see my glory,
19 and I will give them a sign. I will send some of their survivors to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, Lud (these are archers), Tuval, Greece and more distant coasts, where they have neither heard of my fame nor seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory in these nations;
20 and they will bring all your kinsmen out of all the nations as an offering to ADONAI - on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, on camels - to my holy mountain Yerushalayim," says ADONAI, "just as the people of Isra'el themselves bring their offerings in clean vessels to the house of ADONAI.
21 I will also take cohanim and L'vi'im from them," says ADONAI.
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence," says ADONAI, "so will your descendants and your name continue.
23 "Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence," says ADONAI. 24
"As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will never die, and their fire will never be quenched; but they will be abhorrent to all humanity." ["Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence," says ADONAI.]

It says that Adonai will judge all humanity for eating pig meat, reptiles and mice. And that every month they will worship on the new moon, and every week on Sabbath.

My question is this... it sounds as though kosher laws, and Sabbath keeping will still be important for the Lord, even in the last days. Should this be something the Gentiles should be concerned about? Will we be judged, as the Israelites will be?

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Hi KBTW,

These things require research. I found this note by Adam Clarke:

The Syrians worshipped a god called Adad, Plin. Nat. Hist. 37:11; Macrob. Sat. 1:23. They held him to be the highest and greatest of the gods, and to be the same with Jupiter and the sun; and the name Adad, says Macrobius, signifies one; as likewise does the word Achad in Isaiah. Many learned men therefore have supposed, and with some probability, that the prophet means the same pretended deity. אחד achad, in the Syrian and Chaldean dialects, is חד chad; and perhaps by reduplication of the last letter to express perfect unity, it may have become חדד chadad, not improperly expressed by Macrobius Adad, without the aspirate. It was also pronounced by the Syrians themselves, with a weaker aspirate, הדד hadad, as in Benhadad, Hadadezer, names of their kings, which were certainly taken from their chief object of worship. This seems to me to be a probable account of this name.


"Behind one tree in the midst": so Aben Ezra supplies it. Some take Achad, rendered "one", to be the name of an idol. Macrobius (d) says, the Assyrians worshipped the sun under the name of Adad, which signifies "one"; him they adore as a most powerful deity; the same perhaps, with the Adodus of Sanchoniatho (e), whom he calls the king of the gods; and the Adadus of Pliny (f), the god of the Syrians, from whom the gem "adadunephros" has its name.

Purifying in Gardens would be the pools they had in gardens for a religious ritual of cleansing which was pagan.

When it says BEHIND ONE TREE, the Hebrew word for ONE is 'echâd which scholars think may refer to ADAD, the false god.

Here is the LITERAL translation by YOUNG.

Isa 66:17 Those sanctifying and cleansing themselves at the gardens, After Ahad in the midst, Eating flesh of the sow, And of the abomination, and of the mouse, Together are consumed, An affirmation of Jehovah.

The Contemporary English Version reads:

Isa 66:17 Some of you get yourselves ready and go to a garden to worship a foreign goddess. You eat the meat of pigs, lizards, and mice. But I, the LORD, will destroy you for this.

John Gill noted: eating of swine's flesh, and the mouse, were forbidden by the law of Moses, Lev_11:7 and some think by the "abomination" is meant the "weasel", since that is mentioned in the above law with the "mouse"; though it may be rather things offered to idols, or blood, are designed. Mice have been eaten, at least some sort of them, as the dormouse, by some people, particularly the Romans, and counted delicious food, as Sanctius upon the place, from various authors, has showed;

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Here's my take on it.

Isaiah 66 is about the years just before and including the beginning of church age and Gentiles coming to God in the church, with Israel promised to come back into the church as well which was promised in Romans 11:26.

God was restricted to Jerusalem in the old covenant. But THE NEW JERUSALEM is the church -- Heb 12:22. This is speaking of NEW JERUSALEM, the church. Gentiles came into the church in Acts 10 and ever since. Verse 12.

The holy mountain in Jerusalem is ZION. And ZION is also spiritually speaking of the church, again in Heb 12:22.

This whole chapter seems to be speaking of the time of Israel after they returned from Babylonian exile when they would lose their heart's faith and sink to mere ritual and idolatry again, and on into the days of the New Covenant.

Their sacrifices would be no better than offering a dog in those days. Herod also came along later and fixed up the temple and built a glorious edifice after those days, which was the temple in Jesus' day. So, the context speaks of the destruction that would come upon that temple in the generation who killed Jesus. And the salvation of Gentiles would occur in the New Covenant.

It was the beginning of the times when Jesus soon came. The state that Israel was in with its pharisees and hypocrites. Then it shoots ahead to see Israel return to God as noted in Romans 11.

The first verse speaks of heaven being God's throne and earth his footstool, as though it referred to a time when they would rebuild the temple that was destroyed by Babylon. They were entrapped in ritual and outward observance.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Good thoughts Mike, to coin the words of Larry Smith, "It is all history".

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Thanks Bro. Blume... I appreciate your insight into this, it was very helpful. I understand that through the years of translation, that it is necessary to have an understanding of current culture and thinking in the time period in which the scripture was written. We have friends who are Messianic Christians, who were using this particular verse to shore up their belief that if you aren't eating kosher food, then in the day of the Lord, you could be "consumed" Isa. 66:17

Thanks again for the research, and your thoughts! God Bless you!!

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

I made a mistake on the above Post. This won’t be after Armageddon, but before.

Who will be here?
The Church will have gone in the First Resurrection.
The Israelites that saw the nail prints in Jesus hands, and recognized him, at the Resurrection, will be in the Wilderness.

Who is left?----Those worshiping the Beast.
Thru the One World Religion, the world will be completely turned over to Paganism. The Beast will completely destroy her, (Babylon) but many will keep their Pagan ways

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

I have been taught and told that a time is comming when satan will have control of the whole world. One man recently said that there will not be faith found in the world for Christ as satan will control the world.
I wonder what you than do with the passege of scripture where Christ told Peter, that on the rock of his declaration that Jesus is the Christ God will build a church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against?

This idea that the resurection is a taking of the saints from this world is not found in scripture. Jesus said "I am the resurrection"

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

I contend that the resurrection is the restoration of spiritual life that was lost in the garden. Not natural death of which many scripture teaches we must all experiance. Those that were resurrected in the first resurrection were those OT saints and the saints that were killed during the begining of the church before the coming of Christ in judgement of the disbelieving Jews that continued in the keeping of the law and sacrifices after Christ gave himself as supreim sacrifice on the cross. This is the abomination that brought delolation spoke of by Daniel in chapter 9 of Daniel.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Godsdrummer: I do think that, that we are all going to have a spiritual body. I state that no flesh nor blood can go to heaven. If it can not go then it could not come down from. The christ taught stated that god would both destroy the spirit of man and the body, that make me look at christ a sending in a total spiritual form. The raising of christ from the tomb was a bodily one. Because he had flesh and bone, yet never stated he had blood. To say god put life back in the dry bones. I state there is two spirits in man as was in christ the created and when we get the h. G. The a portion of god's own spirit which he takes back to himself that he gives. I state this because christ is the likeness of both moses and melchizedek of which both had the spirit of god both being a man. One thing to note is god took of the spirit which was on, in, or to say working through and gave portions of that selfsame spirit to the seventy elders. This would make them have both the spirit of man and god's spirit. If we are going to be as the angels then we have to be total spirit. Have mor to say on the subject but this my 2%.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Precis
I never said we would not have a spiritual body, as a matter of fact both Peter and Paul write of this. Peter says he has a tabernacle prepared for him at his death.
Paul speaks of being clothed in this flesh, and that we have a clothing not of this world that we desire to be clothed in but we will not until we die and leave this body behind.

This body must die as it was ordained to do by God from creation. The death brought on by the sin in the garden was not, in my personal opinion, our natural death, rather the separation from the spiritual relationship with God. Which was restored with the death of Christ on the cross. Those that accept the work Christ performed on the cross by faith, confirmed by water baptism, are filled with God's spirit which was the promise to come in the new covenant, as confirmed by Peter on the day of Pentecost, "this is that which was spoken of by Joel" brings one into the kingdom of God today.

This new birth, changes us from mortality to imortality, at the moment of our new birth. NOT this mortal body rather our spiritual body. Death held two places or should I say held to two places. First under the OC, where at death the soul was held in reserve till the coming of Christ. At which time He redemed them at the cross, and went into hades the place of death taking the keys to death hell and the grave from satan. resurrecting the sould of them and the souls of the saints slain during the tribulation period just before the destruction of Jerusalem. Bringing them with him at his judgment of Jerusalem in 70ad.

As Paul writes (before the destruction of Jerusalem I might add)
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Understanding of the way the writers wrote gives us understanding of the words of prophecy and how they came about. Just because two differing things were writen in one sentance of passage does not mean it happened at the exact same time. I can give many examples of this in scripture, but if one would take the time to stop and think on this idea they would be reminded of many passages. One such was on the day of Pentecost where Peter quotes from Joel. In the same sentance or paragraph he states both the promise that was that moment being expriance by those in the upper room, then on the heals to that he completes the quote from Joel stating the comming judgement,
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Notice the fulfillment of the out pouring of the spirit of God above.
Now notice what was to come, did this come to pass in that generation? You better believe it did.

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These words were apocoliptic terms used by the prophets of God to describe natural events of the falling of earthly kingdoms, and in this case the ending and destruction of the OT covenant to the New Covenant.
We look at these words and say, well this has not happened yet because the moon has not been turned to blood, or the sun shall be turned to darkeness, by our definition. But I chalange any one to study these terms out in OT prophecy and see how they do come to pass.

And did they come to pass in that generation, you better believe it God destroyed Jerusalem (using the armies of Rome) Judging those people who shouted to Pilate "let his blood be on our hands" and did not repent, but continued to commit the greatest abomination in the eyes of God.

Not the offering of a unclean animal in the temple, not even the desacration of the temple by a Gentile. That was all passed when God died on the cross, the temple lost its place of importance in the eyes of God from the time the vail was rent from top to bottom, the temple became just another building, erected by man. The abomination that brought desolation was the continuing to offer sacrifices upon the alter, spitting in the face to the offering God gave of his son on the cross.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

I was just giving my point not to say what you said or did not say. I just gave my own opinion about being spirit after death of this body of flesh. Sorry if i said something you thought i said about you or your thoughts. Any way i feel we are going be spirit not flesh in heaven that is all. I will make sure i reread what is posted to not hurt feelings. Again sorry about causing you a problem.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

You did not hurt my feelings, and I was not tying to down play your opinion, as much as to clearify my own view.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

With all due respect, this is a reading of the issue through the lenses of dispensationalism. Personally I find that concept of prophetic teaching to be lacking with many holes. I disagree strongly with dispensationalism, but I know what it is like to have only known that concept, for I was a dispensationalist at one time. Suffice it to say there are other concepts which consider all the scriptures that deal with the issue in what I consider a more biblically faithful manner.

Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars
 

Isaiah is speaking of those who practice the Canaanite religion and who despise the Law of YHVH: sanctifying and purifying oneself in the gardens behind [a]tree in the midst [of the garden] refers to the worship of Ashtaroth, which was conducted in groves or gardens around a tree or 'pole' (as in Maypole...). They eat swine flesh (unclean meat forbidden to God's people) and other unclean things. The prophet says they will be destroyed. these are people who were Covenanted with God yet who practice pagan religions and have committed apostacy against the Covenant (whether secretly or publicly). They are also those who are not covenanted and who practice the abominations typical of heathens.

God will purify His people and remove the tares.