Fiscal Cliff
 

If you don't know about the fiscal cliff, you need to....

http://money.msn.com/personal-financ...at-your-wallet

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

NO POLITICS. we need to go off the cliff and let the tax cuts for the rich expire so that the house can pass a tax cut for the middle class withou raising taxes on the rich. OFF THE CLIFF!!!!!

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

I bet you tax cuts for the middle class will never happen.

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Will never happen.


Its funny DM cries "OFF THE CLIFF" , yet Romney gets reamed when he says thats what should have happened to the auto industry, let them go over the cliff then rebuild and get it right.

Budget analyst say the rich man tax won't come close to helping the deficit. As it will cause businesses to cut back even more, layoff more people, thus removing more tax revenue, then they will have to raise taxes on more of those who have jobs...ie; the middle class.

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I suspect congress will pass something so taxes are raised on the middle class to a level where the people will accept it. We are slowly, slowly having our wealth (or food money) taken from us.

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Obamacare most likely is not about people having access to medical care. By law, hospitals and clinics that received federal aid were supposed to have treated people without insurance anyway. Somewhere, somehow, big medical have been allowed to skirt that law, then complain about having to absorb it even though they were receiving federal funds.

So what do people who are for socialized health think this is all about?

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

The bold above is not correct. Hospitals are only required to treat emergencies.
They are not required by law to treat illness.

e·mer·gen·cy (-mûrjn-s)

1. A serious situation or occurrence that happens unexpectedly and demands immediate action.
2. A condition of urgent need for action or assistance:

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

The post was not only correct, but highly understated.

Anyone going into the emergencie room for most illnesses that are above over the counter medication will be treated.

Unfortunately this also includes the usual dope heads with the never ending back and neck pain.

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Hospitals are only paid about .18 on the dollar for every medicaid patient they see....50 on the dollar for medicare.

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It is interesting to watch this play out. I expect the repulicans will cave and do somethign to avoid the cliff.

however, we hear republicans talking about flattening the tax code without raising rates, getting rid of deductions for the rich to generate additional revenue.

dems are saying no to this that they want a higher rate.

So you have to wonder what the dems want?
We know what Repubulicans want. they want rates to stay the same but are not opposed to increased revenue from taxation. Getting rid of deductions for the wealthy makes it harder for the rich to hide thier money.

Raising rates on the rich, but not doing anything to deductions leaves them well able to hide money.

So what is the dem end game? We have a couple of AF posters here who are dems so maybe they can shed light on this?

I await answers with baited breath.

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

On the subject of Obama care, what everyone needs to understand here is that Obamacare was never intended to be a solution. Mr Obama clearly stated the objective before he became president when he said getting to a single payer system would have to be done a step at a time and would take 15 years.

What Obamacare was meant to do is to break the system so that the people would demand a fix.... a fix that could only go in one direction.

Obama care is causing large companies to lay off people. to cut thier full time workforce and have larger numbers of part time people, and in some cases like John Deere and my company (one of the Fourtune 10) to state that eliminating health benifits and just paying the penalty would save them billions per year.

The goal of Obamacare is to drive more and more people into the government exchanges to the point that it becomes unprofitable for insurance companies to offer private insurance. at that point we get a single payer system and 100% of the medical industry becomes federalized.... that would be about 1/6th of the economy.

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Sorry. I worked in hospitals for 25 years and I've not seen people turned away when they were sick. I've seen many people's charts stamped "NO INSURANCE" admitted for treatment.

You cannot tell me any different.

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This makes a lot of sense. Even those without insurance have been saying to me lately that at some point in time, there will eventually be a single payer insurance.

I think that is why healthcare costs have been growing exponentially since Hillary tried to get it passed when Bill was in office.

I expect that by the that time 15 years have come and gone, I will be in my 70s and will be allowed to die.
Healthcare will most likely end up to be business decisions rather than saving old lives. Much like the person who has a 20 year old automobile that they kept in immaculate condition all these years. Then someone comes along and rear ends them to the point that the insurance company totals it out for next to nothing, hands you a check a doesn't care that you are out the automobile you took care of for so long.

It's not always a bad thing to be allowed to die. I've seen the elderly languish in hospitals and nursing homes being kept alive by tubes and artificial means knowing that they will never live a normal life or get off the artificial support.

But it would be a bad thing if the elderly only needs some medications or procedure to allow them to enjoy their home and family and was refused by some insurance company's business decision.

Either way, I would want to make sure my life was right with God and serving Him because we don't know when we will be called to go home to be with Him.

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I've seen procedures that normally cost hundreds of dollars get reimbursed for only $20-$50 dollars....and that was 12 years ago. There is no telling how much more Medicare has been cut.

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So your saying the hospital will take me in and treat me for cancer for 5 or 6 years until the cancer finally kills me? You've seen hospitals do this?

Please tell me which hospital does this and I will stop paying $200.00a month for my medicare ins. I could really use the $200 somewhere else.:heeheehee

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lol, no. Obamacare will eventually label you as "no longer productive to society" and allow you to die.

They will give you something for the pain though...probably more than necessary.

Lets get real Light. If you truly believe that any conservative policy will allow you to go untreated then you have drank the liberal kool-aid.

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Ferd... here's my issue with health care. Right now... a person without insurance or any way to pay can rush to the ER for immediate treatment for injuries and various illnesses. They get billed. They don't pay that bill. And the cost shifting begins (study health care cost shifting). Providers then increase health care costs to make up for the losses incured by those who don't pay, or are slow pay. That causes insurers to increase premiums to cover increased costs. The uninsured people rushing to the ER don't pay a dime AND OUR HEALTH INSURANCE COSTS INCREASE EVERY YEAR AS THE NUMBER OF UNINSURED INCREASE.

Imagine if a car lot was run this way. Someone without the money for a car shows up and they are given a car and billed for it. They dont pay their bill. What will happen to the cost of cars in that car lot Ferd??? They will increase to make up for the loss incured by giving away so many cars. It would eventually go out of business because the cost of cars would increase to the point that nobody would buy one. This is why a car lot will not give you a car unless you can pay for it or a third party has lent you the money to buy it.

So the "Free Market" model really DOESN'T bode well with health care. Because ordinarily a person who can't pay is denied service. Try going to a restaurant and ordering food, informing them that you can't pay, and you'll see what I mean. You'll be denied food. In health care... we don't do that. We treat everyone in the ERs even if they can't pay.

Also... if you pass out on the sidewalk tomorrow... you'll be rushed by ambulance to... the emergency room. Even if your conservative little soul doesn't have insurance and would rather not go to the ER. Car accident... those involved are automatically rushed to a hospital and treated for injuries... even if unconscious and uninsured.

Imagine that a car lot rushed out and gave a car to stranded people, even if they couldn't pay. LOL!!! It wouldn't be sustainable. Stranded people would have to pay for a rental... or ... find another way... like walking or hitchiking.

So the "Free Market" model for health care doesn't really work. It can only work if we DENY services to those unable to pay up front or don't have insurance. Period. Now, that would be truly "Free Market" health care. But MOST wouldn't go for denying treatment unless consented to or able to pay. So we're stuck with a system available to EVERYONE, even if they pay NOTHING for it. Therefore it makes sense to... MAKE EVERYONE PAY INTO THE SYSTEM (or at least as many as possible).

So... there ya have it. Deny treatment to those who can't pay (truly free market service)... or go to a single payer system wherein a service available to all is paid for by the *vast majority*.

I say "vast majority" because the homeless and utterly destitute aren't going to be able to pay into the system. That's a no brainer.

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MB Anderson hospital in Houston refused to treat a person we know who had medical ins. He was told buy more Ins. Your coverage cap is to low.

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Exactly, do you believe bammercare is going to be any different?? Do you believe that those on the program will get better or equal healthcare to those who can afford to buy their own insurance??

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IDontCare about Obamacare!

The last thing we need in America is for the Government to pay for something else! Good night, can't people see that the cronies in Washington can't even balance their "Checkbook"???

I am 52 years old, and I've been Self Employed almost my entire life. If the money isn't coming in, STOP SPENDING, and tell those who are waiting for Public Assistance to go to Church! We will tell them, “You need to EARN your keep in life if you want to survive! A man that doesn’t want to work, go ahead and STARVE!"

Our Nation is on the verge of the greatest Moral and Financial collapse this World has EVER seen! We are also creating a Nation of lazy, fat Americans who sit around waiting for an Unemployment Check! Many can't FIND work because they CAN'T work and perform the physical requirements necessary TO work!

People complain, moan and groan, and try to tell me there are NO JOBS! I simply tell them, "You're just not willing to WORK!” They usually find work after I say this.

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Yes, I have seen hospitals do this. They have fund raisers for people who have no insurance. They have a charity program also.

But...if people know how chemotherapy and radiation works...and there is no guarantee that it kills all the cancer all the time, (it sure does kill healthy cells in addition every time it is administered) they might think twice about taking cancer treatment.

At this time I am not sure if I want to die faster with chemo and my quality of life greatly reduced from the complications of chemo...or just live my life with as much dignity and quality as I can without chemo or radiation. I am leaning towards the latter rather than the former.

Ever see that movie called the "Bucket List"? That is what I think I would want to do with my $200 a month. I would save it and use it to enjoy my last days on earth. Go to Apostolic Holy Ghost filled retreats where I can have my faith bolstered and ask God to heal me. However, He may just choose to take me home instead. :)

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I know exactly what you mean. But there are different degrees of cancer. For example, my husband was told a 95% cure rate with radiation. He has been cancer free for 5 years and hopefully forever. So, it made sense. However, if you are in stage 4 and are given a short time to live......I think I'd just enjoy my time....

Re: Fiscal Cliff
 

Yes, ILG, I failed to specify the stages one is in. It does make a difference and I am glad you pointed that out. Be if far from me to discourage anybody else's healthcare decision. Perhaps what I should have said that people should study cancer/chemo/radiation thoroughly on their own and make their own informed decisions.

I have a close oneness pentecostal friend, whom I think is full of cancer. Years ago, she had a few lumps under her arm and in her breasts. Now she has other conditions that may be malignant. However, she refused cancer treatments and is still living 10 years later.

I heard some astounding news about AIDS and statistics of people who chose treatment and those who did not choose treatment several months ago. I've been researching what other scientists had to say about it.