I Joined the UPC
 

I Dreamed That I Joined the UPC

I had a weird dream last night. I dreamed that I joined the UPC.

In my dream I was in a room with other people. The room was a meeting area and also had a dining area in it. I was in the meeting area. There were chairs out and arranged facing a head table with several leaders sitting at it. The chairs were not in straight rows but placed rather randomly. The dining area was right next to it and some people were seated at tables at the edge of the dining area but were part of the group that were in the meeting. I walked up to one of the men at the head table and said, “I’ve decided to take out a license with the UPC.” The man stood up, smiled, reached for my hand and seemed happy and said, “Well, it’s about time.” Another man who had been seated next to him also stood up to welcome me and echoed the same sentiments. It seemed they were familiar with me and happy that I had decided to join them and they willingly accepted me.

The people at the head table were not dressed up but were in casual attire or semi-dress up attire. They did not have on suits and neck ties but were in dress slacks and casual shirts. One woman seemed to be the “Queen Bee.” She was walking around and stopping often to converse with people seated in the seating area. She had a place of prominence and I thought she was the wife of the Superintendent, Chairman, or Presiding Bishop. She had on a small “pill box” type hat. Her hair was (dyed) black and quite short just feathering out from under her hat. She had on several strings of pearls and a black dress. She had on earrings that matched the pearls around her neck.

A younger woman came up to me and I recognized her. She was a combination of a couple of the teenage girls who were a part of the youth group in our ALJC Church back in the nine teen seventies when I was a sectional Youth Leader and my sons were teenagers. This young lady was now in her late forties, possibly early fifties which is the age of my children now. She was a teenager with them and knew them. Her hair was light brown to blonde and came down to about her shoulders. Her husband (that I did not see right then) was a UPC minister. She was glad that "Bro. Ellis" was now part of them sorta like it was when I was a youth leader and Sunday School teacher to them years ago.

I was dressed casually with gym shoes, jeans and a western type shirt --blue and red stripes, two pockets with flaps on the front, and pearl snaps instead of buttons. I don’t drink alcohol but at one point in my dream I was sitting with some ministers and I had a quart bottle of a local Cincinnati brand beer next to me from which I had been drinking. I did not try to hide the bottle and it seemed OK to them. I thought, “well, they can smell the alcohol on my breath so there is no need to hide this bottle from them.”

It seemed to me that this was not an international or national meeting but was a meeting of the Ohio District of the UPC and they were meeting in Cincinnati.

The whole group seemed very accepting of me even though they knew what I believe and teach. It seemed like they welcomed diversity among them and had “relaxed” some of the things they had taught in the past.

I remember wondering about a couple things. I had not filled out an application for license yet I was accepted and licensed as a minister. I had not read all the books required for licensing and thought that maybe they had waived that requirement for me based on my one year of UPC Bible School back in 1956/1957 and the years of experience preaching and teaching that I have. I also wondered how I could ever keep up the dues, assessments, etc. realizing that even if I took it out of my tithe, the tithe might not be enough to cover it all and that would result in a decrease in financial contributions to our local church. I had the impression that I was granted a UPC minister’s license and would not be giving up my ordination in the Churches of Jesus Christ International and in the Hamilton Dream Center (our local church). So I would now be affiliated with 3 organizations instead of 2 like I am now. I also wondered, “What will I do about the Affirmation Statement? Do they still do that every other year or should I just modify it by saying that I will preach ‘the Bible’ and cross out some of the other words before I sign it.”

When I woke up it just seemed so strange to have dreamed something like that. It seemed strange to see a UPC which had relaxed, become more open and accepting, and could accept me as I am. I guess that really IS a dream.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Speaking of Ohio, UPC, and Cincinnati I heard Joel Urshan Jr. preach for the first time recently this year at a youth conference. Very good preacher. Sorry... off topic... but interesting dream.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I only heard him preach once and that was a sermon I downloaded. He does all right. I would expect him to go "far" in the UPC.

There are currently 3 "UPC" churches in Cincinnati. Joel Urshan pastors one of the oldest. It was started in the 1920's when Bro. Frank Curts took over a split group that had left another church. I'm not sure if any of the non-UPC churches in Cincinnati are descended from that church that was split back then or not. Bro. Curts came from Indiana and started with about 13 people and got up to several hundred at one time. It was called Bethlehem Tabernacle and later changed the name to First Apostolic (FAC).

In 1945 a group split off the congregation Bro. Curts was pastoring and became the Full Gospel Church. They later hired a pastor, Joe David Sizemore, and then became an ALJC Church. After Joe David Sizemore died he was replaced by Shelley Hendricks and the church became UPC. I think it is still UPC and also affiliated with Joel Osteen.

The FAC church split in the 1960's and Bro. and Sis. Norman Paslay left with a pretty good sized group and started the Calvary Church which is now pastored by their son Norman Paslay III

FAC passed to Bro. Leroy Buller after Bro. Curts died and Bro. Buller pastored until he retired. He is now the "Bishop" and they have been through 2 or 3 pastors. Joel Urshan is the current pastor

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Have you ever been to Bishop Paul A. Bowers church in Cincinnati? He fellowships with my church back in DC yearly. We used to be in the same organization until my pastor split from the PAW just recently. A lot of apostolic church is Cincinnati so I've found out. Large churches too.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I was at Bishop Bowers church back in the early 1960's when he was in just a small building in the city of Cincinnati. They merged with another Church in the City of Lincoln Heights and later bought a large building where they are currently located. He was the Presiding Bishop of the PAW for a while. I was only at his church that one time for a service but did drop by his current church once several years ago to drop off a VHS tape for Transformation Cincinnati.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

So, was that a dream or a nightmare? :)

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Sam you need to quit before you go to sleep. It will cause you to have crazy dreams. :killinme

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

That's too funny.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I would not be surprised by any of this. It is a well known fact that this is where they are going.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Lol. I was thinking the same thing!

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Maybe my dream is "prophetic."
I'm 75 years old and may not see this happen in my life personally but in our lifetime we may see the UPC go this way.

I remember quite a few years ago I had a very brief dream. I was in a store, I think it was a bakery and someone asked me, "Did you hear about the merger between the UPC and Pentecost?" That was the extent of the dream. I took "Pentecost" as meaning what we some times call "trinity pentecost."

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

You seen all the facial hair on them lately?

Symbol of pride and that goes before destruction.

They all look like they are purpose driven!

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Where are they going?

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I look forward to the day the upci gets back to the Bible and out of the manual.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Whatchamean? Give specific examples of the UPCI being 'out of the bible'.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

For the record; 4 Pastors in 87 yrs. (including Pastor Urshan). Pretty good by most standards. And your dream sounds very much like Jesus' last prayer before ascending to heaven.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

They are moving toward the open wearing of more ostentatious jewelry, cutting of women's hair, women wearing pants, etc. This is why his dream comes as no surprise to me. For the last several years, they have been interested in having ecumenical discussions with other churches. It is one thing when they were speaking with the PAW, ALJC, and other Oneness orgs. However, they have also started engaging in talks with the AOG, the Church of the Nazarene, and others.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I personally wish the split over the Godhead had not happened almost 100 years ago and that the OP's were all still preaching justification/salvation/regeneration at faith/repentance followed by water baptism ("formula" left up to local pastor and congregation) and the Holy Ghost as an enduement of power for those who are saved.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I believe that the split was inevitable. You can not have two such doctrines battling for supremacy in an organization. The very bedrock of Christological understanding was being shaken. Further, the 'traditional' mode of baptism was being altered, and that had implications for the wider church world in general, and Protestantism in particular. If baptism in Jesus' name was the only legitimate mode, that meant that all of their ancestors could be in lost. This made it easier to reject the new doctrines. The 'Light Doctrine' was an attempt to cover this base without compromising newly revealed truth. This of course satisfied neither the traditionalists, nor those who strongly embraced the new doctrines.

This made a split inevitable, if undesirable. The fact of the matter is that the Assemblies of God would be the largest Oneness organization today if the split had not occurred. That was how rapid the spread of the doctrine was. Had they waited another five years to oppose the Oneness doctrine, it would have been to late, as the major figures in the AOG would have been supporting it.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

And I'm assuming you feel this is a bad thing?

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Instead of the National, or International UPC, could it be that some districts, of the UPCI, in some states, in some cities, is what was being focused on in Bro. Sam's dream? Not the entire National/International UPC.

"It seemed to me that this was not an international or national meeting but was a meeting of the Ohio District of the UPC and they were meeting in Cincinnati".

Could it be that only a section of the UPCI was moving away from and was more accepting of the way some wanted/desired the UPCI to become. Perhaps it sounded good to the ones who had already moved away from the UPC, (at least in spirit), instead of the UPCI moving toward them.

Just some thoughts! Not to offend anyone or anyplace!

One thing I noticed was that this dream seemed to be very detailed and long.

Falla39

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Dreams can be weird. Like the young woman who was a combination of two of the girls I knew as teenagers. Both are around the same age and the age of my kids and knew me as a Sunday School teacher, a person who preached in out local Church, and sectional youth leader of the ALJC.

The 2 men seated at the left end (as I faced it) of the "head table" who were glad I was joining seemed familiar to me but they I have no idea who they are/were. They are/were not people that I know. I have seen some pictures of current leaders of the Ohio District and I didn't see any of them there. I thought it was an Ohio District meeting that was happening in Cincinnati. It may have just been part of the district, maybe sectional. I don't know.

The woman with the pill box hat, the short black hair, the pearls and the earrings was nobody that I know.

Really, the only faces that were familiar was the young lady who was a combination of two teenagers I knew in our church at that time. I still see them on Facebook. Neither is married to a minister but the composite young woman in the dream was married to a UPC minister although I didn't see him and don't even know what his name was supposed to be.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

We talk about "the UPC" as if it were some huge monolithic structure. Actually, there is the UPC as a large religious/political organization/machine but it is really only an organization of ministers (a preachers' union of sorts). The UPC is also a large multitude of children of God throughout the world and who are a very diverse group of people.

I sent out an email describing this dream to several people. One young man (he's older than my kids but seems young to me because I was his Sunday School teacher when he was a teenager) said I must either have some deep seated emotional problems with the UPC or had eaten too much pizza. He is pretty conservative in his beliefs and attends one of the UPC churches here in the Cincinnati area. Actually, he and his family and some others left a UPC church in a nearby city when the pastor "relaxed" the standards (dress code).

When I told my wife about the dream her response was something like, "Why do you want to have anything to do with those people? We've been delivered from that."

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

It was the pizza. :happydance

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

This made a split inevitable, if undesirable. The fact of the matter is that the Assemblies of God would be the largest Oneness organization today if the split had not occurred. That was how rapid the spread of the doctrine was. Had they waited another five years to oppose the Oneness doctrine, it would have been to late, as the major figures in the AOG would have been supporting it.

I seriously doubt this. Sounds like something out of UG school.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I'm not sure I agree with it either.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I think it is based on EN Bell. AOG leader was baptized in Jesus name but stayed with the AOG if my memory is right. Doesn't equate to the claim.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

You seriously doubt what? that the split was inevitable?

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

That the AOG was going to become OP without the split? That is mere supposition.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

Just as the Romanists think the Pope is infallible as he speaks ex cathedra and that the decrees of the councils and holy tradition are equal to the Scriptures, the UPC takes the pronouncements of the General Superintendent, the votes at the general councils and the Manual to be equal to the Scriptures.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I thought the manual was more important than scripture.

Re: I Joined the UPC
 

I think just about every denomination has manuals, charters, and by-laws it follows in addition to scripture, I don't think it is a UPC problem, then again what do I know?