Modesty Myth
 

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Meh. I didn't realize a short, very uninformative blog made this lady the expert voice on the issue and more authoritative than many great men who say the opposite.

Personally, I think she is full of baloney. It is stupid to think that how you dress cannot be a clear stumbling block that causes a person to lust where they normally wouldn't. This is just another article by some lib'd up feminist wannbe who thinks women should be able to dress however they want and bear no responsibility for what effect it may have on men. "Oh they shouldn't lust. They just need to pray more and control themselves".

Or maybe you should dress more modestly instead of tramping it up or painting on the skin tight apparrel.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

The comments below her blog statement are much more wise than her own.

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The comments below her blog are primarily men!! LOL

Men who most likely haven't dealt with their responsibility to know the difference between healthy sexual attraction and lust!!

Of course, women have a responsibility to dress modestly! However, that is hard to define without ending up trying to make folks holy by decree, instead of maturity!!

Both have very serious responsibility!!! Men that cannot stay off of porn sites, will not be able to avoid lusting, no matter what the ladies wear!!!

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Wear what you want, do what you want, be what you want. We're all going to Heaven anyway, HAVE A BALL!

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IMO:

No, a woman is not directly responsible for a man's lust, but she is responsible to God for her own licentious behavior. God will hold the man responsible for not keeping his thoughts and actions in subjection and He will also hold the woman responsible for her immodesty. Ergo, while one may not be culpable for the sins of another, they are still responsible for their own sins, and immodesty is ungodly.

In our teen class, we recently talked about the works of the flesh, and I found this definition of "lascivious" to be interesting:

las·civ·i·ous
adjective
1.inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd: a lascivious, girl-chasing old man.
2.arousing sexual desire: lascivious photographs.
3.indicating sexual interest or expressive of lust or lewdness: a lascivious gesture.

This definition has lasciviousness working from any direction; it can be lusting, and it can be inciting lust. It can be indicating or expressing lust, or having an inclination toward lascivious behavior.

The linked article is a trite, cursory commentary on the issue of modesty, and fairly unimpressive.

While I don't think we are directly responsible for the sins of other people, it would also be shortsighted (not to mention unbiblical) to think we lack the ability to cause our brothers to stumble. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the actions of another person--even when wrong--don't excuse our own sins. Ergo, a woman dressing immodestly does not excuse the sinful thoughts of a man, but God won't excuse her either.

There is no myth about modesty. God expects women to be modest in their dress.

I Timothy 2:9-10 - with Greek definitions

"In like manner also, that women adorn [put in proper order, decorate, garnish, trim]
themselves in modest [orderly, decorous, of good behavior, well arranged, seemly, modest]
apparel [costume, apparel, a lowering/letting down, a garment let down, dress, attire],
with shamefacedness [(through the idea of downcast eyes) bashfulness (toward men), modesty or awe (towards God), reverence, regard for others, respect]
and sobriety [soundness of mind, sanity or self-control],
not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

This passage addresses outward--appearance, actions and words. A godly woman wears modest dress, is sober, has self-control, is orderly, bashful toward men, has regard for others, and does good works--among other things.

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Well, she kind of took the responsibility off of the woman and put it on men. And don't think for a minute that women that dress immodestly do it for themselves. They do it attract men and/or attention. But, we can look attractive without being immodest. Sadly immodesty has become so common it has seeped into the Christian/Apostolic culture.

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:thumbsup

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"9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." (1 Cor 8:9-13)

If the Apostle Paul felt so moved to modify his behavior due to the struggles of a "weak brother", why don't we? Are we responsible for the sin of another? No. Should we bear the infirmities of the weak? Yes (Ro 15:1; Gal 6:2).

The author stated two things: "I would absolutely encourage men and women to dress in a socially acceptable manner", and "Live in the culture God put you in". Until the last quarter of the 20th century, even Western "culture" was considered modest in regards to its "socially acceptable manner" of its clothing. Now, I don't think it's a stretch to say that western culture is considered quite risque compared to most other cultures in the world.

Cultures change. Fads and styles come and go. Shouldn't our behavior- even down to the way we dress- be an expression of a biblical paradigm, not a socially-accepted one? Since when have the morals of the Bible and of our society ever aligned? Not very often.

BTW, I'm not UPCI. And although I'm a man, I have been convicted by the Holy Ghost concerning what I wear, and have made adjustments accordingly after I prayed about it and sought what I felt was God's perfect will on the matter. Shouldn't we all?

Re: Modesty Myth
 

The Brat struck again. Well said Mrs. Brattified!


At the end of the day, Christians do not have the luxury of walking thru this world unattached to those around us. We are called to win the lost to Christ, and within the body to be connected to the, part of the body. You cannot be part of the body and not be concerned with the other parts.

I must consider the effect my actions have on those around me. When I fail ( and boy have I failed), the impact is not to me alone. So it is with how we dress and behave.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

:thumbsup

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I have to agree with what you said here. Even though many are for or against certain standards, I feel that the heart of standards regarding clothing is simply trying to define modesty of dress in our present day culture.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Agreed. The specifics of what comprises "modesty" or "modest apparel" can be discussed and debated, but the idea that women should be modest shouldn't be up for debate; it's purely biblical.

IF there is a myth about modesty, it might be this: If all women are modest, men will be lust-free. Perhaps that's what the author intended to say, but she didn't actually bring out that point.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Glad someone noticed the comments were from the good old boys. No one can serious suggest people should be immodest. The author states that explicitly.

Studies shows there isn't much difference in sexual activities between sinners and saints.

The weaker brother card can be played only so long. Paul didn't have the weaker principle in mind when he calles out Peter's hypocrisy dealing with the Gentiles with jews present.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

The author pointed out modesty was necessary. The author says the focus is wrong. The focus should be on the men lookong at the women.

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While an immodestly dressed woman can potentially incite lust in a man, does she not have a responsibility to point to God by her actions rather than seek attention for herself? I believe feminine immodesty speaks to the lust of the eye for men and it speaks to the pride of life for women.
Immodesty is an equal opportunity sin folks.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

tv1a,

Some of the comments under Emily's post are far more in depth than the post itself. I'm not sure why you seem intent on marginalizing the male perspective; this is an issue on which we need to hear from both sides of the gender aisle.

The weaker brother concept isn't a "card" to be played, although some people may well do just that. It is a part of scripture and therefore can't be discounted so easily. Paul's point was that our personal liberties should not be more important to us than the wellbeing of a fellow Christian.

Also, I completely disagree with Emily's trite defining of "lust." She says,

There are two problems here:

1. the idea that lust in and of itself is sinful, and
2. the idea that lust is somehow separate from sexual attraction.

Lust is sinful when it is excessive or misdirected; not in general. And really--wanting to kiss someone isn't "lust?" LOL!!!! Naiveté at work there....

The definition of "lust after", from the Greek: to set the heart upon, long for (rightfully or otherwise): --covet, desire, would fain, to turn upon a thing, to have a desire for, long for

I'm sure we can all agree that there are appropriate times for "lust" without having to go into great detail. I would certainly include the desire to kiss someone in the "lust" category.

I Corinthians 10:6 says, "Now these things were examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things...."

Emily goes to some effort to make biological sexual attraction innocent and lust sinful and the two mutually exclusive. In fact the two are one and the same, pretty much. Lust is simply another word for desire; it isn't inherently evil, unless one is desiring what one shouldn't have.

It seems to me that with these reframed definitions, Emily is making room for people to feel sexually attracted to one another and not call it lust. Ergo, you can dress in a way that invites "biological sexual attraction" and be free from guilt. While I agree that men are going to be sexually attracted to women even when they are modestly dressed and deported, I cannot agree that this alleviates women from a responsibility to care about how their dress and behavior affects others.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

I disagree that it's either/or. Men have their struggles; women have theirs. Male attention can be intoxicating for some women, and they can take pleasure in dressing in ways that attract that attention and then shaming men when they stumble. That's not only disrespectful, it's immoral.

This is a two-sided topic. Men are not the only ones at fault here.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Good post(s). Well said.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Tell it!! :yourock

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I wonder how many people would walk around a pack of pit bulls with a steak hanging from their necks. It takes two to tango. Women have what men want biologically. When it's presented it's hard not to look

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Question: can one person's eternal fate depend, in any way, on another person's actions? Not just in dressing modestly, but any actions.

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if we are to work out our own salvation, I suppose we also work out our own damnation.the blame game doesn't work with God.

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Is that a "no"?

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I know someone who went through counseling for porn addiction. The counselor told him to make a list of everything that drew his eye going to and from work, i.e. billboards, etc. His purpose was to enlist him on helping to end this travesty in our society.

As much as we want to talk about a woman's involvement in a man's lust (which has some degree of merit), what about men who pass things to their friends via computer and cell phone?

I say that men are also at fault for encouraging and sometimes having the mindset that it's just boy stuff and no big deal. They could be ruining another man's life (a wife's life as well) on his struggle with porn. Men need to take some responsibility here, IMO.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

It may not work but others are responsible for the salvation of those other than themselves according to the word.....

Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"

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Like I said, it takes two to tango

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Good example! But, what do you mean by "It may not work"?

Edit: never mind. Think I got it. The preaching may not sink in, so the person doesn't get saved. :thumbsup

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Sorry Timmy, I forgot to quote. He said the blame game does not work with God and I said it may not work but....

Re: Modesty Myth
 

Ah. I see. Thanks.

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:heeheehee sorry meant to sum it up with a no.

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I think both genders are to blame.

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I certainly agree. Just rounding out the discussion by not leaving anything out. I've seen a lot of "locker room" or "horseplay" stuff where men don't think it's a big deal or damaging to another. It is a big deal. Not all men will admit their porn addiction and other men need to stop feeding it.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

;)

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Unfortunately, there are more than a few who think that viewing porn is a normal part of male sexuality. It's all part of the normal "biological sexual attraction" to the female form. :rolleyes2

Another problem is that it doesn't just affect men; it affects their future (or present) wife--because she will either suffer from neglect while he continues his bad habits, she will suffer unrealistic expectations of her personal appearance or performance, or both. (and much more) There's a lot to be said for saving not only your bodies but also your mind for your wife only and exploring sexuality within the very generous bounds of the marriage bed. God's plan is obviously going to be the most fulfilling--and guilt-free. This is sort of a tangent, though. :)

Are women culpable when men lust after them? I say they can be, but in my opinion, only if they are deliberately inciting lust. There are women who are clueless about their effect on men, or those who think it shouldn't matter; I'm not sure that they are responsible in their ignorance. Then there are those who are very much aware and do whatever they can to get male attention. The woman who purposely sets out to seduce or be generally seductive--I believe she is acting immorally and will be accountable to God for it. (Obviously I am not speaking about seducing one's husband. :)) Per my post earlier in the thread, I believe that falls into the category of lasciviousness.

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I think the discussion can go into a broader paradigm bringing in the woman from a dysfunctional family. If the song, "Looking for Love in all the Wrong Places" wasn't written with that paradigm in mind, it certainly should have been. She isn't always aware that she is looking for male affirmation that she didn't receive growing up, setting herself up for a world of hurt.

Re: Modesty Myth
 

That is why it would be immensely helpful if Christian men would take the tact of being respectful toward ALL women; not just the ones who appear to deserve respect. By respect, I mean: don't treat women as sexual objects, at the very least, and treat them as "mothers" and "sisters" at best. (I Timothy 5:2)

If there is an achilles heel of some of our traditional teachings on modesty, it is that it can condition men to view women who are immodest (using subjective modesty standards) as worthy of their disrespect. They sort the ladies from the rest by a cursory assessment of their appearance, and behave accordingly. That is a problem in the male psyche; not the female. It's particularly problematic when their filter is based on traditional Apostolic modes of dress, since there are plenty of ladylike ladies who wear secular clothing. Okay, maybe "plenty" is overstating it these days, but still... :D What I want for my son is for him to be a gentleman and Christian at all times--even to a prostitute who is actively "asking for it."

Re: Modesty Myth
 

:thumbsup

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Have a current case in point. My husband is working out of town and the guys told him, last night, "Come on, we are going to a strip club. Your wife will never know." :smack

Of course, he told them he wouldn't be going. But, they will be talking about it today! :smack

Re: Modesty Myth
 

I believe both parties are responsible to do their part. Women should dress modestly but a holy man would not look to lust upon a woman who was walking the streets naked, although he might be tempted. Women are not responsible for a man's actions but a responsible woman would not want a weak man to struggle over her dress.

I think the problem has been that men have been in the pulpit talking about women's dress for too long, rather than concentrating on their own issues with lust. Let the older women teach the younger women how to dress and if men are going to preach from the pulpit, let them preach against pornography and lust. I dunno. That seems right to me anyway.