Ephesians 4
 

Ephesians 4

12/23/2012

Over the course of the last 10 years, I have been led to study church authority. This first started with the disalussion with the single pastoral authority of which was found in the organization I was raised in. In my studies I began to read how there was never a single elder, pastor, etc that was addressed in scripture. Even Paul never went anywhere alone, rather with several in his group.

The deeper I began to look at this and study the more convince I became that so many church organizations are not biblical in their line of authority within the body of Christ. With a complete separation between saint and ministry. In other words there are saints and there is ministry. Separated by a chasm as large as the Grand Canyon. With that being said I present to you a study I have done on Ephesians chapter 4.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,
Eph 4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

To begin we need to know to whom Paul is addressing this letter. We find this in chapter 1. "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus" We see Paul is addressing this to the saints, not to the ministry.
When Paul says we are to walk worthy of the calling we are called to, he is speaking to each individual. We each have a calling, as Paul goes on to teach, we are each part of the body. Paul teaches much more about the body in his other letters but let us keep with the context of this letter. Chapter 5 gives a clear outline of the relationship of the body.

Now verse 8 Paul speaks of Christ gave gifts to men. What are these gifts that Christ gave to men? This is found in one of the most missused verses by dictoral organizations.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers;

This list has come to be know as the five fold ministry. A ministry that has been raised up on a pedestal thus separating saint from leaders. This I say was not what Paul intended, this come from again pulling one or two verses from context, to build a doctrine of man and not of God.

As establish in verse 8 these are gifts that God (Christ) gave to the body. Gifts that are to work with in the body not above or outside of the body. This is in direct conflict with many teaching of pastoral authority found in many organizations. Again the teaching found in many organizations are of a separation between the body and ministry.

Moving on verse 11 and 12 reads, Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Many read these two verses separate from the rest of the chapter. Stating that God gave this so called ministry to perfect the saints. I feel this is reading this out of context completely. Let me explain further. This word "perfecting" in the Greek is "complete furnishing" the NKJV reads this as "equipping". While perfecting works if one reads this in proper context, equipping is even better. As the ASV reads, "for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:" Unto the work of ministering. This is what the gifts are given for, the purpose of equipping all saints for the work of their ministry.

That the body of Christ would be built up, that we will all come in unity of the faith.

In conclusion, God did not place an authority group over the rest of the body as a police force. Chapter 5 confirms this as Paul wrote that we are all to submit one to another. As Christ is the head, of the church not a man. Under Christ is the husband, again not a pastor, under the husband the wife and then lastly the children. This same line of authority is repeated in Paul's other letters.

Nowhere in scripture do we find Paul or any other apostle placing a dictator over the body of Christ, such as we find in many religious parties today. This type of dictorial control is a carry over from the Catholic church. Jesus himself instructs us that this type of leadership should never find its way into the kingdom of God. Matt. 20:25, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25.

If you should find yourself in a group that has a dictoral one man show, that reserves for him/her self the final say as God's appointed voice to the rest of the church, I say run, run for your life. For under this type of leadership one can not ever grow the full maturity in relationship with God.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

IMO: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are required for the growth of the saints for the work of ministry/serving and will be part of that growing/developing/maturing process until the Church is perfected/raptured.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Ok Sam I'll bite,\

Exactly where does it say they are required? Paul tells us they are gifts, given to the church for the equiping (perfecting,complete furninshing)of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifications of the church.

The point, Sam is not whether they are needful or benificial. The point is to what degree of authority do they have.

Are they to work within the body or without?

Notice they are not given to do the work of the ministry, they are given that we all are equiped,to do the work of mnistry. After all this passege addresses the saints to walk worthy of the vocation in which they are called.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

An even fuller context:

Eph. 4:11-15

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive;15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I have had far more trouble finding a Minister (of any variety) who understands that the point of ministry is to bring each believer to the fulness of the stature of Christ than one who makes himself a a total dictator.

We have basically novice Ministers who teach other mens doctrines and fight against the Biblical teaching of perfection/coming to full stature in Christ.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

my opinion:
1. They are part of the Body. They are "required" in that they are necessary parts of the body. They are body parts or organs that are required for the Body to work properly.

2. authority? that can be scary. Each ministry should mesh and gear with others. I would consider Peter and John to be big shots in the first century church leadership but they were "sent" to Samaria by the leaders in Jerusalem (Acts chapter 8) which indicates some sort of submission to me. Paul openly rebuked Peter at Antioch when Peter's actions were inconsistent with what he was preaching (Galatians 2:11-15). Paul and Barnabas are called Apostles but they were sent from the church in Antioch (Acts chapter 13) and Paul returned to that church after his first and second missionary journeys like it was his home base.

Another thing about authority, the elders/bishops/pastors (plural) are leaders (not bosses) in the local church. Notice how Peter talks about that in 1 Peter chapter 5). All are to submit to one another. None is to be a lord over God's heritage. A shepherd is the "boss" in that he is in charge and responsible for the care and well being of the sheep but he "serves" the every day and devoted his life to their care.

3. they are part of the Body and should work in the Body to the betterment and upbuilding or edification of the Body.

4. the ministries of Ephesians 3:11 (some say there are 5, some say there are 4) art to build up the saints so the saints can serve.

We were taught at the Apostolic Bible Institute (a UPC school) when I was there in 1956/1957 that there were only 12 apostles (Matthias was a mistake and God never considered him an apostle) and that there are no current prophets because that office ceased in the first century.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Sam and Michael
I know Sam I believe you have been in ministry, by ministry I mean part of the group that holds themselves above the rest of the body. I carried license with UPCI for around 10 years. Although, I was active in ministry for about 20+ years as I started early in life. The point of this I worked in close contact with many, and worked under many. From the best to the worst, the one thing that was consistant. When the rubber met the road it all came down to this, the pastor always had the final say.

In essance he was the Lord of his own kingdom, that being HIS church. Let me change my wording, because I was party to this too. I held the same view point.

We set fences up, "standards of holiness, doctrines, plans of salvation" Anyone that did not line up to our dictates were rebelious and set for hell. It is and was not Christ church it was our church. Christ could not work through the body he had to work through the "pastor". Man teaches that the gift of an prophet is gone, man teaches that there are no longer apostles, scripture does not. These were and are still gifts within the body that should be at work within the body.

Lets look at the work of a pastor, the word pastor is lituraly "shephard" a shephard was not to fence in the sheep neither was he the boss. The shephard was yes in charge, in charge of protecting, leading the sheep to pasture. Never was the shephard to feed the sheep as we define feed the sheep. To feed meant to lead the sheep to pastures and clear water at which time the sheep were allowed to graze and drink as they chose.

The misinterpreting of Ephesians 4 thinking the ministry must perfect the sheep is a misconception. The word perfection is to furnish completly, again this was not the job of just the pastor, (shephard) but all the gifts. And again the gift of the pastor was to shephard, the sheep. I cannot say that enough as we need to understand the definition of shephard in those days.

The sheep were not to stay sheep, they were to grow into their own ministry, not neccesarily that of a pastor, as a pastor is a special breed as you and I know.

More to come.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Godsdrummer,
I do not believe "ministry" is "part of the group that holds themselves above the rest of the body."

in my opinion:
the verb "to minister" means "to serve"
the noun "minister" means "servant"
All in the body are servants/ministers.
We serve God by serving one another.
We minister to others and are ministered to by others.

I happen to be an "ordained minister." I have three pieces of paper on my wall that say so. One is an ordination certificate that states that I am an ordained minister in The Church of Jesus Christ. It is signed by Boyd Lawson, Billy Nunley and Sondra Bennett. Another is a piece of paper that states that I am ordained for ministry by The Hamilton Dream Center and is signed by Pastor Wendell Coning, Pastor Bill Banks, and Kim Coning. The third is a piece of paper that states that I have the authority to solemnize marriages in the State of Ohio because I am an ordained or licensed minister in The Church of Jesus Christ and it is signed by J. Kenneth Blackwell who was Secretary of State for Ohio at that time. I have a fourth certificate that is not hanging on the wall which says that I have authority to solemnize marriages in Ohio because I am an ordained or licensed minister with The Hamilton Dream Center. It is signed by whoever was the Secretary of State for Ohio at that time. Those pieces of paper give me legal status as a minister as far as civil law but are unnecessary as far as God or His Church is concerned.

I have ministered/served the Body of Christ for over half a century by praying for people; supporting a local church and other ministries financially; giving away food, clothing, money and other things; visiting people in hospitals, homes; nursing homes and in jail; being available when people need a listening ear, a shoulder to cry on, or an encouraging word; teaching; preaching; inviting people to church; cleaning the church; etc.

I do believe there are offices in the church. They are listed in Ephesians 4 as
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastors
Teachers
I realize some believe pastor/teacher is one office but I think of them as separate offices

I believe that in a local church there are pastors who are also spoken of as elders and bishops. These men/women are spoken of by Paul in Timothy and Titus and in Acts chapter 20 and by Peter in 1 Peter chapter 5. They have "authority" in the congregation because they are in positions of leadership. They are not to be lords over God's heritage but are to be examples to the flock. They are to lead by example and their lives and words therefore carry authority and are to be "obeyed" as they teach and preach and live the Word in a human and imperfect manner. They are to be followed but only as they follow Christ.

I believe the word "pastor" is not found in our KJV New Testament but the word "pastors" is found once. However, the word translated "pastors" in Ephesians chapter 4 is translated "shepherd" in other parts of the Bible. Peter uses this word in chapter 5 of his first epistle and Paul uses it in Acts chapter 20 when they speak to elders/overseers. To pastor means to care for the flock.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

I agree

I was a baby Christian when I attended the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN in 1956/1957. Bro. Norris taught us (potential ministers in the UPC and other organizations) that there never could be more than 12 apostles. He taught that Paul was God's choice of the 12th apostle to replace Judas and that Matthias was the choice of the people in the early church to replace Judas as an apostle but was never accepted by God. I hadn't been reading my Bible for long but I already knew that there were about 20 people called apostles in the New Testament. I had to think, "If they have this wrong, what else do they have wrong?"

P.S. I have never been licensed or ordained by the UPC. I have attended UPC churches and have preached in UPC churches. I could preach in a UPC church today if asked by the pastor but I could not be a member of a UPC church. This is just my personal feeling.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Having One main leader is not only biblical, but historically biblical

Judges were individual leaders
Moses Moses was the main guy at the top
High Priests there was only one high Priest
Kings One King ruled Israel
Jesus was the main guy leading the rest
Peter was the main Apostle who led the rest
Paul was "The Apostle to the Gentiles"

We have the same system in government with a President

Corporations have a guy at the top

What we have today are autonomous churches where as back then each church had several elders but there was one person over ALL the churches. When Paul dictated, as the Lord led, to the Corinthians or other Gentile churches, he was being that one leader over them all.

When Titus appointed elders he was choosing "Yes men"...he looked for a quality in them that they could follow Titus and indirectly through Titus, Paul

Tit 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you--
Tit 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Tit 1:10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.
Tit 1:11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
Tit 2:2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.
Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Tit 2:4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
Tit 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
Tit 2:6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.
Tit 2:7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Tit 2:8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

Tit 2:15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Tit 3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Like it or not, there are some that are OVER the rest of us
1Th 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
1Th 5:13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Of course there is a right way and a wrong way to be over someone and as well to submit to such

Re: Ephesians 4
 

What you seem to be missing in these examples, is that none of these were called to dictate in the place of God. They were called to lead.

This is the problem I am trying to drive home, God did not call dictators, he called leaders. BIG differance.

And God did not put one man at the top!!! In this respect. Just by the way you presented your list then with the passages you presented show me you are missing the point.

God intended his kingdom to be a theocracy, not a dictatorship. A theocracy is government by Immediate direction from God. This type of government was in place from the time the settling into Cannan to the time of King Saul.
Notice, God handed down the Law, (which was given because of disobediance) the law was handed to the families through the priest at the begining. Then the parents are instructed to teach their children. From this to the time of the kings the people governed themselves under God.

I have become amazed at how much we close our minds to parts of scripture that don't fit our model of how we think things were or feel they should be. Lets take your list from the top. Moses was not called to be the big dog, he was called to lead Isreal from Egypt. Moses would not have had to pass the commandments down to the people had they not chosen to. The people chose not to hear directly from God for they feared the thunderings and voice of God. Because of this Moses had to have the priest pass the commandments down to the people, then the people were instructed to teach them to their children from that time on. The priest had one job that was to minister to God in the tabrancle.

The judges were raised only when all or a portion of Isreal became disobediant, and God allowed a neighbouring nation to persicute them. Then God raised a man or women to lead them to battle after they begin to repent and call on God. They became a judge after the victory, not because God had designed this but because the people turned to them. After each judge died there was a period of time that the people were back to a proper theocracy with God as Lord without a man or women over them. So to use the judges as an example of ordained leadership of God does not count, as God called them to lead the children to victory, not to become a elder or leader after the victory.

Between the judges and the kings you left out the prophet Samual, I wonder why? Was not Samual in a position over the priest between the people and God? According to your view. The fact is the prophet spoke the word of God as the need arose, he did not go around setting everyone straight on everything the way most pastors of todays churches do.

Which brings us to the kings, first one must note again God did not ordain the kings. The kings were the desire of the people. So to use the kings as an example to show God's plan of oversight of the church is a stretch, God allowed it but it was not God's plan.

So what is left? God and the people, with the priest in the office of the work of the tabernacle, ministering to God. Jesus is our high priest, so what does that leave us in todays society. God Jesus and the church the body of Christ indepenantly serving God, with the work of the gifts within the body of Christ for the equiping of the saints to do the work of ministry to the world, and edification. Till we all come to unity of faith.

This is the way things are becoming clear to me, I am not trying to debate the subject, as right or wrong. Or to prove one way or the other. I am trying to generate discusion on the subject to cause people to think and discuse the subject.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

I realized that I did not address the apostles, Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, this did not place him as lead apostle. All we find is that Peter was called to be in attendance when the spirit was poured upon each new group. From that point we don't find Peter in a place of being over the rest of the apostles rather the opposite. Paul even corrected Peter when he would not eat with the Gentiles in the presence of the Jews. Even in the counsel in Jerusalem it was not Peter that gave the direction the church took it was James.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

If I could jump in and express my opinion (acknowledging that I'm cherry-picking a portion of your response):

God didn't choose leaders either. Leaders have followers, and God never intended for His people to be relegated to a permanent "follower class".

My opinion (born from my personal study) is that the 5-fold ministry are not leaders nor lords. They have very specific goals in which God intended for them to have: perfecting the saints, bringing the errant into the unity of the faith, and carefully guiding the saints to become like Jesus.

In this, the 5-fold ministry must be like a parent or a mentor. At times, the ministry needs to be more forceful or adamant, but never dictatorial. The goal is and must remain the cultivation of the saints to discover, grow into, and prove the perfect will of God for them.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

One should not assume the dictator thing is the status quo. I dont remember having a Pastor that way. I had one who preached what he considered holiness (outward standards) but he certainly did not try to micro manage my life.

Now I do agree with multiple eldership opposed to a one Pator set up. My problem is just that even there in todays Churches it seems the more Preachers the more error. We need to get understanding of sound doctrine.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

No I did not miss that. That was my point. You can have a single leader and not have a dictator

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Ok I will admit I Missed that, as my wife would say I was to wrapped up in preaching my view I missed what you said. Sorry, You may have a single leader and not a dictatorship, but is that the perfect will or permisive will of God?

As I was bringing out, Moses was to lead Isreal out of captivity. That is what God told him to do. Moses was to lead Isreal out of Egypt to a place where they would serve God. That was God's will and desire.

This brings me to another point, where do we get the term "ministry"? As a seperate group of people. Ephesians I again repeat that Paul tells them that God gave gifts, some apostles, some prophets,... for the complete furnishing of the saints, (now here is where believe we get it wrong) we make the words, "for the work of the ministry" we read it in such a way that the work of the ministry as a seperate office from the saints". I read it as "the saints are given the tools to do the work of ministry".

Paul in his letter to the Romans repeats this message in Romans 12, Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Now you may say Paul did not list apostles, or evangelist, that does not mean they were not one of the gifts, rather, Paul did not need to address the Romans for whatever reason, about apostles. The context of both passages are the same though. We are the body and within the body God gave gifts to each of us. wherin we are to minister.

And again Paul speaks of this to the church at Corinth, in the 12th chapter of I Corinthians.
Now many take this portion of scripture to say, "see God set" the ministry in the church but not the gifts.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
I put the rest of the chapter in so you can see what Paul says. Too many times teachers only want to quote those parts of scripture that say what they want to get accross. In this case that God set offices. Notice though that Paul does not stop with the apostles, teachers, but includes in the "setting" other gifts, healings, tongues, workers of miracles.

Also reading from the begining of this chapter Paul refers to the church as a body with many members fit together.

Putting this all together, we have what is a hierarcy in the church, and Paul or any of the apostles discribe this type of leadership in the church. The church is discribed as the body and Christ is the head. If God had intended there to be one spokesman to the individual church between him and the saints he would not have called 12. Again in each instance that the writters speak of leadership in the individual churchs, they speak of plural pastors, teachers ect.

I wrap this up with a little history I came accross several years ago, reading a Roman Caticism hand book. It was the church that decided that the saints could not interpret scripture and that only those in high positions should be the ones that interpret scritpure and then pass this down the what them became the layity. This decision plunged the church into the dark ages, where the only ones allowed to have access to scripture where those trained according to the church. The yes men.

While many protestant churches have pulled away from Catholisism, we still hold many of the traditions, philosophys, and empty deciets formed under this dark period of time.

To all of this please understand, while it may seem that I am teaching a doctrine of rebelion, and individualism. That is not my intent, I still believe we need each other, we need to submit to one another, we must be in proper postion in the kingdom of God. We are not to become an island to ourselves. I know I don't have all the answers, I am studying and putting this out looking for answers.

I do know I am not alone, others are being led down this same road, as Martin Luther saw one verse that changed Christianity and began the reformation, others are asking God is there more to the kingdom of God.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

It's known as following "precedents" (something done or said that serves as an example or rule to authorize or justify a subsequent act of the same or an analogous kind).

The contemporary Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Church (regardless of the moniker its ministerial licensing agency has assumed), continues to hold sacred the rituals and customs which the "apostolic forefathers" (of the early 20th Century) brought with them from their former denominations that were once a part of the RCC. I call it "Dead Men Still Rule."

Re: Ephesians 4
 

And yes Lafon, Dead men still rule. The eldership in many denominations still follow the trend and ideology of a dead religion. One that teaches that the massed still need a man to translate the word, else they cannot understand the word.

Hence we are still in the dark ages in many respects, where one man holds the final say over many individual groups of people as the spokesman of God. What is this man has missed the mark? Even the whole organization has missed the mark and they are teaching a doctrine that binds the individual saint to a place God never intended for his children?

The saint is stuck, if God reviles to them deeper revelation, most times the so called man of God, the (spokesman) religates them the saint to rebelion to his authority, if they do not toe under to his doctrine.
Hence the saint has one option, leave or suppress his understanding. We are seeing this very thing happen in the UPCI with regard to fulfilled escatology. UPCI has gone to the point of calling the teaching hearisy and any pastor must change his/her teaching to conform to UPCI teachings or leave.

This should not be so.

After leaving UPCI 10+ - years ago, I have searched for a church or organization that was, is more to my understanding. I have found two. One was the result of the affirmation legistlation of UPCI in the 90's when many left the organization. They have become what is called the Global Net. The Other is an organization the came out of trinity groups. Both of these groups have grown in the last 10 + years to become growing churches that have left behind the organizations they came out of. By left behind I mean in numbers and the move of the spirit of God.

The organization I attend ICCC has a stronger move of God than I ever experianced in all my years in UPCI. For one thing the gift of prophecy in its proper place is strong in this organization, and allowed to move.

As for the Global net my oldest daughter and younges daughter are members of one, and their spiritual lives have grown in the last several years that they have been in attendance that God has moved them (My oldest daughter and her husband) into leadership positions.

The greatest thing about this trend, and why I see it is of God, is there are no turf wars between churches.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Reading down through this post I realize that I have come accross in a maner unintended.

first let me humbly appoligize for comming accross as if I have all the answers and I only have the truth. That is not my intent. I know I come accross that way many times. Put it down as occupational hazard of the way I was raised and from my background. Having sat under pastors of all types I have a tendancy to refer to the negative types rather than those that have a right spirit within the wrong setting.

Sam I too am licensed and ordainded to perform marriages in my state, and have pastored, and held several asstiant pastorates and am presently under a pastor of whom I repect in an organization of which the leadership is not dictoral. I feel we are much alike in our theological understanding.

Michael, I do agree, "We need to get understanding of sound doctrine. " while you and I disagree as to the definition of sound doctrine. Sound doctrine must mot be based on traditions, rather sound understanding of the word of God.

Prax while the postion of single pastors is neither scriptural or unscriptural, the authority of the single pastor must be keep in check. As has been expressed they must be a shephard not a dictator. I do not feel the pastors position is to "set the saints straight" rather to teach the word in such a manner that the saints can grow on their own in their own relationship with the spirit of God.

I feel the biggest mistake of religion is the quest for eternal life rather than personal relationship with God in this life. Religion defines salvation as the following of a set of rule as set by said denomination, as to a plan of salvation, then a list of thou shalt nots in order to achieve eternal life, this sets the child of God on a life quest to self achievment in this life.

Relationship with God is to rest in the work of the cross by faith, in love one for another fulfilling the prayer of Christ, "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". This comes not by preaching a list of things one must accomplish in order to obatian eternal life. This is just what the religious leaders of Christ day were doing and they were condemed. Rather we are to "love the Lord God with all our heart soul and might, and love our neighbor as ourself", in this can we fulfill Christ prayer to make the kingdom of God real in the world.

Re: Ephesians 4
 

That wasn't all. Moses brought them the law. Moses instructed them how to do things.
He "shepherded" the people to a place they can worship God and then taught them God's ways

Re: Ephesians 4
 

Agreed