Guns: An Important Discussion
 

Ok I like guns. I could almost say I love guns. I have owned AK47'S, SKS'S Mini 14, Mini 30 and M1 Carbine along with some handguns. I currently own one handgun.

I understand that Jesus is not opposed to being armed at least generally speaking. What is hard to find in the New Covenant Church is Christians killing their enemies. How do you feel about this? Scripture supporting it? Scripture against it?

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I'd sure like to know the answer to this, also.

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Since you asked for scripture and not my viewpoint..lol

Matt 5

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Re: Guns: An Important Discussion
 

If someone is trying to kill or harm you or your family, defend them.

Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed. 22 "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.

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Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!

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Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.



Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



It's clear the gospel is NOT to be advanced by the sword. If Christ's kingdom was of this world we would "fight" but it is not. Therefore the gospel is a true message of peace and good will towards men - all mankind.

However, the question is not one of gospel propagation it is "self defense". On this the Bible is clear:
It is interesting to note that Abraham (the father of the "faithful" - the man of faith) brought his "trained servants" with him to rescue Lot.
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

Then there is this passage of scripture letting us know that we can defend our property from thieves:
Exo 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

A man breaking into a house to steal would be smitten and the owner of the house would suffer no adverse consequences.

Then there is this passage as well:
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

What does "provision" mean?
Certainly it the taking thought for the "needs" of the family. A man should work to provide for his family.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

What does this have to do with the issue at hand? I am glad you asked! LOL!
What man among us would not step in and defend our families from a rabid dog? What man among us would not defend our families from any wild creature seeking to do them harm. I would use anything I could get my hands on to defend them from such an attack.

Jesus said:
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

In the above passage Jesus states that it is right to do good even on the Sabbath day. Here we have the clear statement that humanity is better than the animal kingdom - this is because of our being created in the image of God not because of any other type of inherent worth.

When our families or ourselves are found in the proverbial "ditch" among thieves and robbers it is good to "provide" for their defense whether those thieves and robbers are wild animals or men acting like wild animals. We are commanded to "provide" for our families and there is no doubt in my mind that this includes "protection".

Jesus told the Disciples to go and get a sword, not for the propagation of the gospel but for self defense. These were not letter openers. The highways were dangerous and they would be travelling these. More often than not the robbers look for easy prey and when they see armed men they wait for the unarmed. Interesting that today it is in the "gun free" zones where the mass killings take place. There is nothing new under the sun.

In summary, we are not to propagate the gospel with the sword. However, we are to provide for our families. That includes protecting them from harm. I cannot imagine any man standing idly by watching a venomous animal of a man raping his wife or daughter and doing nothing. It goes against every fiber of what a "man" is supposed to be. All that evil needs to prosper is for good people to do nothing.

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Pliny, good post. You posted my thoughts exactly (only much better). Church and family are two very different things.

We are NOT to say "Repent or die!" but we ARE allowed to say "Touch my wife, harm my children, or steal my things and feel the cold kiss of my Ruger 9mm!".

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I agree, good post.

I know there are other threads about the end times, but here is very interesting passage concerning God's witnesses during the time of the end:

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Although they are not evangelizing with the end of a sword, they don't appear to be helpless in the face of adversity. They are more like Stand Your Ground Witnesses.

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As a Christian I have no right to take another human life under any circumstances whatsoever. I feel very very strongly about this.

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So you would allow your wife/girlfriend to be molested by another without taking whatever step was necessary? Just askin.

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What say you all about this scripture?

Hebrews 10:32-37

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated , ye endured a great fight of afflictions;33Partly , whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used . 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods , knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.37For yet a little while , and he that shall come will come , and will not tarry .

Please stay with this scripture. We will examine others sure but comment on these words.

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I think of all of the issues surrounding guns, open carry, concealed carry, self-defense, home security, 2nd Amendment rights, hunting, etc., your question strikes at the heart of the reason why the majority of gun supporters (me included) have made a decision to bear arms.

Consider this very similar Biblical example and God's response to it:

If the words of Malachi are true:

Malachi 3:6a For I am the LORD, I change not;

And the book of Hebrews is God Breathed:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Then consider how God delivered the Jews when this decree was enacted against them"

Esther 3:13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.

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took joyfully the spoiling of your goods

They believed, correctly I guess, that they were supposed to give up their 'goods'....that it was the will of God for them to do this.

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So how much emphasis is this kind of teaching given in the Churches? Personally in 38 years of hearing Christians teach only about 3 or 4 groups come to mind that I know trys to ingrain this in the members.

I know most are saying the teaching on turning the other chhek was an old time idiom. If one stuck you on the cheek he was trying to insult or degrade you. Yes in that case you should restrain yourself and figuratively speaking turn the other cheek. In other words just let it go.

Of course no one has ever provided any evidence it was just an idiom unless we are supposed to just take their word for it.

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Interesting teaching James gave us:

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton ; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold , the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.8Be ye also patient ; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh . James 5:5-8

He says the wicked kill the just and they do not fight back. He admonishes the just to be patient until the coming of the Lord. The common Christian wisdom would have said buy yourselves AK'S or AR'S. Dont you know Jesus expects you to defend yourselves? Why did James say what he said?

Are we in a different class of Christian than they were? Or were they real Apostolic disciples of Yeshua?

Who are we?

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Is James speaking of religious persecution or someone breaking and entering?

It sounds to me like religious persecution from the likes of Saul before he was Paul. Jesus told his disciples to go and buy a sword. Peter carried one to Gethsemane and apparently Jesus did not tell him "no". Peter had it and even felt he could justifiably use it - this after listening to the Beattitudes and the many things Jesus taught for three and a half years.

Jesus healed the ear of Malchus and told Peter to put up his sword. This religious persecution was the will of God at that moment - Jesus had to go to Calvary.

There is a difference between living by the sword and having one to protect your family etc. James called for patience in the face of religious persecution. Self defense is a right codified even in the Mosaic Law - it is one of the most fundamental and basic human rights humanity has. Should a person defend themselves against a wild animal? I say absolutely and even when men act like animals I will defend my loved one's. If this offends someone's "Christian sensibilities" I say get away from the sloppy agape koolaid. I believe Nehemiah had the right idea. Build the wall but be ready to defend yourself against the animalistic tendencies of fallen man.

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Yes Peter had a sword and carried it. I carry a 357Sig at times. I dont believe that is wrong. I also see that at that moment it was Gods will for Jesus to be taken to the cross. Jesus didnt want Peter to stop that nor did he wish to see Peter killed.

Next thing to consider. The book of Revelation shows that multitudes of Christians are going to die for their testimony and because they keep the Lords commands. The reasoning of Jesus to Peter was if I were delivered from this mob how would the scriptures be fulfilled?

So if Christians take arms to defend themselves by first killing the bad guys THEN how would those prophecies be fulfilled?

Actually what apostle James referred to when he said "you kill the just and he does not resist you" was not speaking of religous persecution but rather how the rich treat the poor.

Do you keep the Sabbath Day? It is also coded in the law of Moses. Are we under Moses or Jesus?

Re: Guns: An Important Discussion
 

Randy,

I have heard the very same reasons given as in this video since I got into guns a long time ago. It all sounds perfectly logical from the standpoint of an American patriot.

A little odd tho the part about settlers and pioneers needed guns to protect themselves from Indians. The truth was THEY the American pioneers were trespassing on and stealing that very land FROM THE INDIANS!

So were the Indians actually justified in making war on THEM since they were taking their land, their game and also breaking covenant with them? Taking food out of their childrens mouths?

I have owned 10 "assault rifles" over the years. I enjoyed them a lot. I DO NOT think it is wrong to own them.

I am actually using this thread as a way to help myself come to a firm conclusion based on scripture. I actually went through this mental battle when the last assault weapons ban was passed in 94. I sat and listened to the Congressional roll call up the the last vote. It was so dramatic I think it passed by ONE VOTE if I recall.

After all Jesus said things about us not loving our lives to the death, and if we save our lives in this world we will lose them in the one to come?

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The subject of guns is a sore one for me because I am very upset at myself for not buying a semi automatic rifle before all of this threat of a ban. Now they are scarce and the prices are sky high.

I want a KEL Tech SU16C that lists for $770 and six months ago could have been bought for $550. Now they are sold out everywhere and used ones are going for $900.

I am sure I can still find a $1200 Bushmaster but that is a lot of money that I don't have budgeted at this time. However if it looks like a ban will pass I will take out a loan if I have to in order to buy one and a bunch of 30 capacity clips.

My son bought me a 357 magnum revolver for Christmas for home protection that I am very happy about. The original owner of my home was murdered (shot) in the master bedroom by teenage robbers. I plan on it being the other way around if that happens to me.

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Apparently you have missed one of the points I have made - that is there is a difference between religious persecution and a robber.

Yes I keep the Sabbath though not in the way you may think - another thread perhaps.

As to the Mosaic Law it is still in effect. Christ did not destroy the Law He fulfilled the Law, another big difference. Adultery is still sin for an example.

When a person has faith and repents, is baptized in Jesus name for the forgiveness of sins and receives the Holy Ghost they have passed from the Law to Grace. We have a choice in this life. Choose to accept the work of Calvary or choose to stand by our own works.

BTW don't worry about scripture will be fulfilled. It will... There are few true Christians in the world and this govt. has the power to slaughter every one in this country if it chose to. Ruby Ridge or Waco all prove the govt. will do what it wants to do and no one can stop it. When the time comes for that scripture to be fulfilled rest assured it will regardless of any self defense mechanisms.

James 5:6
Adam Clarke
Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you - Several by τον δικαιον, the just one, understand Jesus Christ, who is so called, Act_3:14; Act_7:52; Act_22:14; but the structure of the sentence, and the connection in which it stands, seem to require that we should consider this as applying to the just or righteous in general, who were persecuted and murdered by those oppressive rich men; and their death was the consequence of their dragging them before the judgment seats, Jam_2:6, where, having no influence, and none to plead their cause, they were unjustly condemned and executed.

And he doth not resist you. - In this, as in τον δικαιον, the just, there is an enallege of the singular for the plural number. And in the word ουκ αντιτασσεται, he doth not resist, the idea is included of defense in a court of justice. These poor righteous people had none to plead their cause; and if they had it would have been useless, as their oppressors had all power and all influence, and those who sat on these judgment seats were lost to all sense of justice and right. Some think that he doth not resist you should be referred to God; as if he had said, God permits you to go on in this way at present, but he will shortly awake to judgment, and destroy you as enemies of truth and righteousness.


JFB
he doth not resist you — The very patience of the Just one is abused by the wicked as an incentive to boldness in violent persecution, as if they may do as they please with impunity. God doth “resist the proud” (Jam_4:6); but Jesus as man, “as a sheep is dumb before the shearers, so He opened not His mouth”: so His people are meek under persecution. The day will come when God will resist (literally, “set Himself in array against”) His foes and theirs.

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I am glad you didn't purchase the Kel Tech since they are, for the most part, garbage.

I own a Bushmaster myself and love it. In fact, I have Night Vision scope coming for it in a day or two. But, you need to forget about the AR or AK's and just buy 2 or 3 normal semi-auto hand guns or rifles. I just got a Glock 19. Some smart rifles to buy now are a couple of Ruger 10/22's along with some 25 round mags.

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I hear on talk radio that gun confiscation is coming. All rumors but what if.....?

I don't have a gun, but I soundly believe in the second amendment for those who want one.

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Christian men ought to have a right and the ability to defend their children from murderers. This is a principle that is backed up in the United States constitution and is currently the law of the land. Christians also however must according to scripture follow the law of the land. They are already pushing for gun control in ways I've never seen since the Connecticut tragedy. They will come for our guns, there will be gun control in America. There will be persecution of Christians coming soon.

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Wow - this post really shocks me. If someone threatens my life or my families life, I have ever right to protect myself and them. We have lots of guns in our home and we all know how to use them. I feel very strongly about this.

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I have heard they are going to make ammo expire. So what good are our guns without ammo.

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Yeah. I heard that one too Mrs. McD.

A sitting president and a sitting congress by law, cannot just up and write executive orders or make a new law concerning the Constitutional amendments. The NDAA, the military commissions act and even the patriot act is unconstitutional because it violates the supreme law of the land.

They must follow procedure to make amendments to the Constitution. Three-fourths of all the States must ratify any proposed constitutional changes.

If Congress does not follow the procedure outlining the law of the land, then they are ....well...you know what they are in contempt of.

These people who were voted to represent their constituents are in d.c. and are representing....WHOM?

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If a gun confiscation program ever materializes I can guarantee you the police will be inundated with stolen gun reports!

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There have been a number of polls asking active cops if they would obey any order given to them to start confiscating fire arms, and nearly a 100% said no, either because they don't agree with the order or (but mainly) because of the huge inherent danger that each and every gun owner would represent to them. It would be the official start of the next American Civil War.

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...and that is scary.

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Not really. I am happy to know it will be a winnable war.

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Two swords are not enough for each of them to engage in self defense. Jesus said, "It is enough.", because they were taking Him literally when He was actually warning them with a parable that they'd face violent opposition. Christ's intention wasn't that they truly go and get swords... else Jesus would have said, "Two are not enough.", and we'd read of them going and buying swords. However, we don't.



It's clear the gospel is NOT to be advanced by the sword. If Christ's kingdom was of this world we would "fight" but it is not. Therefore the gospel is a true message of peace and good will towards men - all mankind.[/QUOTE]

Amen.

Abraham wasn't living under the New Covenant. It was a nomadic time and Abraham lived according to patriarchal codes. He was much like a tribal leader. Thus this doesn't apply. It's more akin to warfare.

Again, this isn't the New Covenant. Essentially this Law of Moses was part of ancient Israel's civil code of justice. It doesn't speak to the morality of self defense, only the justice. Much like laws regarding self defence here in the United States. For example, it's legal to use lethal force to defend yourself. However, like the Law of Moses, it doesn't speak to it's morality or how such an action should be viewed in light of Christ's teachings.

Actually, I'll have to differ with you here. The context of the verse was addressing men that were not working and expecting the church to continue giving them and their families handouts. Paul's point is that these able bodied men must provide for their families and their necessities (food, clothing, etc.). This doesn't speak at all about self defense or the use of lethal force.

Christ's point is this passage was that the Pharisiacal accusation against him for healing on the sabbath was baseless. Also, with this Christ affirmed the superiority of the Gospel of Grace over the Law, affirming that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Nothing about self defense was in view.

Already addressed.

Christian history attests to the fact that rather iit be under organized persecution or isolated acts of random violence against Christians... early Christians refused to draw blood. Even Christians serving in the Roman army refused to shed blood for the emperor and were executed for treason. Entire families were often the target of isolated random violence, crime, and persecution... in each instance... they died before shedding the blood of their attacker.

True Christianity will cost you more than a dress code... should someone break into your home... obedience to Christ might cost you or life... and perhaps even your family's lives.

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False dichotomy. It's not about persecution verses a criminal act perpetrated against you. It's about one thing only in all circumstances... obedience to Christ. Obedience even unto death if need be. Be they a unit of a persecuting police force... or some dumb, doped up, and armed 20-something breaking in your home to rob you blind.

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A false dichotomy implying situational ethics.

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Either you trust the Lord with the fate of yourself and your family... or you don't.

It's not about persecution vs. criminal act. It's about obedience to Jesus Christ.

I don't live in the best neighborhood. My girlfriend's brother was beat down and robbed two blocks down. My car was stolen last April. I've anointed my doors and windows and prayed over those I love. Now... it's really about me preparing for whatever the Lord would have happen to me. Like a Kamakazi... my death is gain. I've been marked by my maker a peculiar display. The high and lofty... they see me as weak... 'cause I wont live and die... for the power they seek.

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I remember a television show called Little House On the Prairie. What always struck me was how Michael Landon's character was a Christian... and a pacifist. Be they bandits or authorities... he never used lethal force that I can remember. I seem to remember him always refusing weapons... and even showing displeasure with even pointing a weapon at another human being.

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Here's what's funny... Christians in various parts of the world like India, some Middle Eastern countries... China... etc. don't believe in using lethal force at all. Not even against an attacker or robber. Facing persecution... obedience to them is at a premium. But in our comfortable little America we don't face REAL persecution like they do. So we've become fat and sassy... justifying the use of lethal force against "criminals" as though because it's a criminal we don't have to obey Jesus.

A REAL Christian understands the every day cost of Christianity. And being a Christian might mean that you'll die with a witness on your lips at the hands of a man holding you at gun point for your wallet outside a convenience store.

Truth be told... my first pastor served as a Marine. And interestingly enough... he was also against Christians using lethal force in any circumstance. I was even admonished NOT to joint the military when I chose to sign up. He'd put it this way... "Either you believe in God or you don't. Don't tell me you believe in God and not trust Him with your fate, come what may."

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Oh yeah... That's why Peter had a sword because it was just a story. Two swords is enough for self defense. You will not start a war with them but you will be able to defend yourself. Yeah... Jesus was just telling them a parable about swords and violent persecution... Give me a break. Next you will tell us Jesus told Peter to throw his sword away instead of sheathing it for now. I guess they were letter openers right? Give me a break.


He was the father of the faithful. So you are saying he did not trust God? Bologna. My Bible tells me all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Last time I checked the OT was still scripture.


All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Last time I checked the OT was still scripture. Self defense is a basic human right. Interesting that a "Libertarian" does not see this.


I don't believe I said it was explicitly stated. However, it is implicit. The man is the guardian of the home, the provider. What good is providential care when there is no defense of that care? You can stand and pray while someone destroys your home or does unimaginable things to your family. That is your prerogative. Mine is to defend my family and as I see it it is part of providing for my family - my responsibility as a man.

Also I see where Cornelius was commanded to depart the army right before Peter baptized him... NOT!
Gotta run...

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Well on most points so far I agree more with your view. A personal question? Are you referring to Pastor Shearer? I know he was a Marine.

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I fear that there are many believers having never seen brute violence will fall when it comes. Not that violence is good it is the most evil of all emotions. What I mean is lots of people I have met over the years just think "Hey it will all work out in the end".
Well maybe not if our hearts are not fully prepared by living a daily life of denying self for the love and will of Jesus to flow.

God took his people in the OT a long way to the promised land because he knew that if the people saw war "not being prepared" they would faint and go back to Egypt. Exodus 13:17.
He first allowed other trials to get them stronger before facing the Philistines in the savage encounter of war.

It would certainly be easier if God had instructed us to rise up, arm ourselves and physically fight our enemies. One might still lose but they would at least feel they were more "in control".

Now there is one verse I know of that I stand on as far as the possibility of using force in a given situation.

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written , Vengeance is mine; I will repay , saith the Lord.20Therefore if thine enemy hunger , feed him; if he thirst , give him drink : for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Rom. 12:17-21

Paul says IF ITS POSSIBLE live in peace with everyone. There may be situations I cannot live in peace with someone. We see vengeance is completely ruled out. Wonder if there are varying levels of ones enemies? At least generally speaking we are told to do them good.