The Security of the Believer
 

I would like to get everyone's opinion on the doctrine of "eternal security".

I know the UPC, ALJC, PAW, ect..... stance, I want your own PERSONAL stance.

Can a truly born-again believer lose their salvation?

If so, how and why?

Im not debating it or trying to stir up a storm, just thought I would get opinions.

I personally believe the doctrine of eternal security and Im sure there are other Apostolics out there that do too. Just state your opinion and use what ever scripture you need to use to support it but PLEASE dont bash anyone that post in support of the doctrine just as I ask that no one in support bash those that are not. Don't turn it into a debate, lets just state our personal belief and leave it at that.

Thanks!

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

This is going to involve the redemptive blood of the Lamb of God so I doubt you're going to get much discussion from the 'apostolics' on the forum other than to reject the belief in eternal security. The blood and redemption isn't a very popular subject.

Personally, I believe in eternal security.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Yes they can lose it

Lack of faith

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I think that you can lose your salvation if you don't want it any more. ie let life get in the way of your walk. I'm unsure of the stance of the UPC or ALJC but I've heard arguments that those people were never really saved.

I honestly think that the people that Jesus will draw to him are the ones who will want to worship him into eternity. Worldly people don't fit that mould. If there are people who just want to get to Heaven because it's better than the alternative, they may be in for a shock as their reasoning is self centered. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way which leads to life.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I do NOT agree with the non-scriptural teachings of "eternal security", also known as "once saved, always saved." The following Scriptural passages provide the support for my beliefs about the matter:

"The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead." - Proverbs 21:16, KJV

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." - Hebrews 6:4-6, KJV

There are others, of course, but these two alone provide me sufficient cause to reject "eternal security" teachings.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

This is one that can go back and forth depending on the understanding of eternal security.

Too many times legalism teaches that one falls from grace when one fails to fulfill the legalistic teachings of their individual group.

The fact is the primary falling from grace came when one returned to the legalism of the keeping of the law and oricles from which they had come out of.

Hence is the parridox, yes one can loose ones relationship with God. When you trust more in your own efforts than grace and the work of the cross. But this comes from an improper veiw of what salvation truly is.

I don't believe salvation is the striving in this life to gain eternity. Salvation is being reconciled to God through Christ in this present life. As long as one walks after the spirit in this life in communion with God they are eternaly saved.

Brake that communion, and what do you have? Nothing. We are told very explicitly what things will not enter the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here is where I see the problem, too many times we dwell on sin or what we think is sin. When Paul tells us that if we walk after the spirit we will not lust after the flesh.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

How shall this be?

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Much more can be said, but I beleive the bottom line is that we can rest in the security of Grace knowing our salvation is sure as long as we walk after the spirit. By this our salvation is sure.
One cannot walk after the flesh and have the spirit, walk after the spirit and you cannot walk after the flesh. They that have not the spirit are none of his.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Ephesians 2:8--For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. 9--Not of works lest any man boast.
James 2:24--Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26--For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

These things sound like contradictions. I'll search the scriptures--on the fence right now. Sounds to me like we are saved by grace but expected then to drop our sins and walk in the ways of Jesus or we would THEN be held accountable and receive punishment or damnation at judgement. Some will awaken to eternal life and some to eternal damnation.
Yeshua Bless You

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Hello PastorTLArt,

Great topic! But I do have a question: how do you personally define the doctrine of eternal security? Thanks!

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

The blood of Jesus offers eternal security.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I think that salvation is eternally secure as long as you continue to have faith in God. I do not think one is eternally secure if one tramples on the blood of Christ.

Paul himself feared that he could end up being a castaway.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(I Corinthians 9:27)

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Hebrews 10:38-39--Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39-But we are not of them that DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.---sounds like you can lose your faith and thereby lose your salvation.
Hebrews 10:18--Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.--26-For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
1 Corinthians 3:17--If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 5:10--For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad.
1 Corinthians 3:13--Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14--If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15--If any man's work shall be burnt, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.--1 Peter 1:7,17,4:12,15
2 Peter 2:20-22
I see that if we sin again after baptism that we suffer GREAT punishments.
Yeshua Bless You

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Great scriptures.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Hebrews 10:18--Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.--26-For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

This scripture is used a lot. My question is, how many sacrifices for sins do we have in the New Covenant?

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I firmly stand against the doctrine of eternal security as umbilical and false!

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Pretty convincing to me.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Under the terms of the New Covenant there is only ONE offering (i.e., sacrifice) for sin, and this is the shed blood of Jesus the Christ.

The words of Hebrews 10:26 is oft-times mis-interpreted to imply that should a saint of God sin "willfully," then they are hopelessly lost without means of restoration. This is because those who interpret this passage as such also use the words of the subsequent passage (verse #27) as evidence of their misguided interpretation. Simply stated, the phrase "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," implies that the shed blood of Christ Jesus is the ONLY effective means through which remission of sins is obtained.

While it is perfectly true that we are in Him, and in Him there is no sin, yet, "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (I John 1:8)

While the forgiven soul may and does occasionally commit sin and come under God's displeasure and thus needs daily renewal of the joys of salvation at the mercy seat (see the Lord's Prayer), he can never come again under the divine wrath and curse (that is, with the exception of that one who commits blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, for whom there shall never be forgiveness; an act that only one who has been endowed with the Spirit can commit).

Although God may visit our transgressions with a rod of correction, "nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him nor suffer my faithfulness to fail" (Psalm 89:33). We must not construe this to imply "eternal security," for as noted the consequences of the blasphemer against the Holy Ghost, such a term cannot be sustained as meritorious.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I agree with much, of your post, but I do wish to look once again at this sacrifice for sin which the passage speaks of.

Hebrews 10:18--Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.--26-For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

As scripture is pointing out, there is an offering for sin and that offering is a one time offering, not an offering every time one sins, the Lamb of God isn't offered over and over, thousands of times during the life of a child of God who is repeatedly guilty of sins of commission and omission. This one sacrifice was offered long ago and put an end to sin, according to scripture.

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

In this fulfillment of part of Daniel 9:24, we see that the passage isn't speaking of a believer losing their salvation at the first sin they commit, but is instead speaking of the contrast between the blood of the perfect sacrifice, which put away sin, and the blood of the imperfect sacrifice which couldn't put away sin. Those who use Hebrews 10:18 as an argument against eternal security are in error and in fact is teaching exactly the complete opposite....the sufficiency of the blood of the Lamb of God which does result in the one time, eternal redemption of the child of God.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

I have a couple of questions.

1) When is one's name written in the book of life?

2) What is "overcoming"?

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

This is the most confusing subject in the bible to me.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Yeah. Wonderful. Especially 2 Peter. :thumbsup

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

:smack You know that was her comment and not a scripture. :)

At least she did not post this:


Sorry Luke. Just having a little fun at your expense. We all know what you meant. :)

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Seems like an accurate paraphrase, to me. Is it wrong?

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

(She said "I see that if we sin again after baptism that we suffer GREAT punishments.")

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I didn't notice that! :lol

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

lol i just noticed that myself as well :)

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Well...couldn't the Bible be considered to be our umbilical cord to God? :)

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Bump

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Instead of going back and forth about when a person's name is written in the book of life why skip over and not address the passage from Romans:

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Jesus Christ gives us understanding about those who do not bear fruit.

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon , and found none.7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold , these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down ; why cumbereth it the ground?8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down . Luke 13:6-8

Jesus gives time for one to bear fruit. If it does not happen by then HE CUTS IT DOWN.

Does not seem to hard to understand.

He gives a believer the Holy Ghost. He gives them grace. He expects them to bear fruit. If they dont he sets forth clear warnings of their destruction.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Ok in Romans 11:20-23, when was the person's name written in the book of life.....and when was it taken out.....and will it ever be put back in again......and will it be taken out again....and will it be put back in again.....and taken out again? :)

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

MTD,
I'd be curious as to what you think about the whole of Matthew 25?

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

How much fruit must a tree bear in order for it not to be cut down?

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

When taken as a whole there can be no question that eternal security is a false teaching.

The guy who buried his talents gets cast into outer darkness. The five foolish virgins are shut out of Heaven. Those who dont minister to the needy are cast away to everlasting punishment. Theres nothing for eternal security in the chapter.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

What do you think about this:

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon , and found none.7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold , these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down ; why cumbereth it the ground?8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down . Luke 13:6-8

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

In each case, the talent guy, the foolish virgins, the failed minister are in the kingdom of heaven. "The kingdom of heaven is like".....

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Ok the outer darkness he gets thrown into is in the kingdom? The virgins shut out of the kingdom are in the kingdom? The people sent away to everlasting punishment are in the kingdom?

:heeheehee

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Yes, read the chapter again. Notice the term "the kingdom of heaven is like". For instance, the virgins were not shut out of the kingdom, no scripture suggests such a thing.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

The same as I do about Matthew 25. We have things to do for the Kingdom which entails more than repentance, baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Someone posted that losing faith can cause you to lose your salvation. So, I think losing your faith can cause you to stop working for the Kingdom, thus causing you to lose your salvation. You become unprofitable.

But, also, the parable of the Fig Tree shows that, even in times when we have become unproductive, He doesn't just cast us aside on a whim. He is patient.

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Jesus said STRIVE TO ENTER at the strait gate.

Give yourself ENTIRELY to him and you will make it.

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved ? And he said unto them,24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in , and shall not be able .25When once the master of the house is risen up , and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying , Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are :26Then shall ye begin to say , We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.27But he shall say , I tell you, I know you not whence ye are ; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. Luke 13:23-27

One should be careful not to think in terms of well how much can I barely do, how much little fruit can I bear and still be accepted?

Jesus said STRIVE! He said FORSAKE ALL!

How far will you let me go? How abandoned will you let me be?

Would you elaborate for a moment what YOU think Jesus meant by the parable of the tree being CUT DOWN? Thanks!

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

Seems quite reasonable:highfive

Re: The Security of the Believer
 

If the scripture is accurate in stating the "kingdom of heaven is like", then yes that's all part of the kingdom of heaven.