Messianic Judaism
 

I just finished a series of payed online lectures on Messianic theology and the main thrust of the presentation was that jewish believers in messiah should still obey the law and customs but that gentile believers were not required to. I was under the impression that messianics believed that all christians should follow the law, but that is not the case. according to paul, in I cor 7 he says:

17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.


In light of these verses, do you believe it is wrong for a gentile christian to convert to messianic judaism or do you believe that jewish christians should not be following the law?

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

I believe there is only one plan of salvation for everyone...

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me , as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) Gal. 2:7-8

The law for Jews but not for the Gentiles. I get that. However then came the book of Hebrews? Now the Jews are also free from the law?

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

No Jew is required to keep the law. My question to such people is WHY are they keeping the law? for what purpose?

Moreover, if they are going to keep the law, they have to keep the WHOLE law and not just some of it. In other words, the sacrifices instituted UNDER the law must also be kept. Now, I don't think any christian would wanna be sacrificing today when already the perfect sacrifice (Jesus) has been offered for us.

I believe Paul fought tooth and nail against Jews being required to keep the law.

Rom 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We are DEAD to the law and MARRIED to Christ.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

mtd, i've really been looking into messianics the last few days. there are 2 camps. the majority of messianics believe in the "two house" theory. that the body of christ is made up of torah observant jews and non torah observant gentiles. one new man in the body of christ. neither jew nor greek, each group is part of the priesthood of israel. just like male and female are one body yet distinct, jew and gentile are one body but distinct in the two house body of christ. nowhere in the new testament is torah observance denied the jew; peter, paul and jesus were all torah observant.

the second camp of messianics are called "one law" messianics where they believe that all christians should be torah observant.

the real issue in torah observance is circumcision. keeping the feast days, sabbath and kosher food laws are not a real issue. two house messianics don't require circumcision while one law does. if you were to convert to messianic judaism and get circumcised, the state of israel does not recognize messianic conversion, not even ethnic jews who are messianic. judaism does not recognize messianic conversion. i do not believe that god in the scripture requires it of believers nor does paul. so really the only reason to get circumcised is to join a one law church or organization. the one law organization that i am aware of, beth haderech, does not accept the deity of jesus. the mainstream 2 house messianics believe in the trinity. unless there is an independent oneness messianic congregation, the only apostolic messianics are gary reckharts apostolic messianics, but i don't know his stand on circumcision. i don't remember offhand his negatives, but i think he has been really negative toward apostolics in the past. i might be confusing him with steve winter. i am not sure.

so i personally don't see anything wrong with the 2 house messianics.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

no one is denying that salvation is through faith in yeshua. the only issue is the messianic judaism is a ministry directed to the jew first and many unbelieving jews would not feel comfortable leaving their culture and traditions to worship in a christian church. messianic judaism provides an avenue for unbelieving jews to affirm their jewish identity. nowhere in the new testament does the bible say that jews are supposed to forsake torah. actually the bible says there will always be a faithful remnant of israel. if there is a remnant of israel that means they have not forsaken the law but are torah observant believers in yeshua. it is not about how we are saved, it is about maintaining jewish identity.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

when paul says we are not under the law but under grace, he means(according to messianics) that salvation is now through faith in christ, not through the works of the law, but that does not mean that jews are to abandon torah, it is part of their national identity. abandoning the law was never an issue for jewish christians.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

statement of faith from reckhart's apostolic messianic fellowship.

http://jesusmessiehchurch.com/html/statement.html

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

i just read this statement. they are not in to law keeping and they do not believe in a future role for ethnic israel when paul says "all israel will be saved" i don't know why they call themselves messianic.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

I cannot see two peoples....two churches...two plans....for there is only ONE Olive tree and we gentiles were grafted in making us all part on one Tree...Would Jesus have two brides?

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

:yourock :thumbsup

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

Referencing the original posting, Does it truly matter?

Messianic Judaism is recognized as a syncretic religious movement that came to prominence in the 1960's and 70's. It blends the teachings of evangelical Christianity with elements of ancient Jewish practices and terminology which were integral parts of the teachings of the fathers and the Law given through Moses, and generally speaking, holds that Jesus Christ is both the Jewish Messiah and "God the Son" (one of the "persons" of the Trinity). In considering these things, then it must be construed as nothing more than a "man made" religious movement.

The broader question must be, in my opinion, is it presently even possible for any true descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be reconciled to God, considering the "times of the Gentiles" has not yet come to fruition. In saying this several Scriptural passages come to the fore of my mind:

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (II Corinthians 11:4, KJV)

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the times of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25, KJV)

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

sis alvear, the issue is what is your view of future events? Is jesus returning to jerusalem to save ethnic israel from the invading armies at armageddon? what did jesus mean when he said:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (ethnic israel will accept the messiah before the second coming)


what did paul mean when he said:




12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (this refers to unbelieving jews)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.(the calling is irrevocable, ethnic israel is still called, not saved)




don't you see a purpose for non believing ethnic jews in these passages?

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

romans 11 speaks of a remnant of israel that is saved. if the are saved they are messianic and if they are israel then they are torah observant jews. you cannot be an ethnic jew and not be torah observant. so messianic judaism is fulfilling the purpose of god as the remnant and non believing ethnic jews are fulfilling the prophetic purpose of turning to messiah in order for the return of yeshua according to the previous post to sis alvear.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

are you referring to unbelieving ethnic jews or to torah observant messianics? if ethnic jews, i just answered you in the previous post. if you refer to torah observant messianic jews then they are the remnant as i posted to lafon. we are one new man in christ, jew and gentile saved by faith in yeshua but distinct as a man and a woman are distinct yet one body.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

both are free from the Law. We are all free from the law.

There is only One gospel

Gal 2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

2 reasons

Tradition

winning the hearts of non-believing Jews

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

Hello Dedicated Mind,

Yes. Both Jew and Gentile should be converted to Christ, and Christ is the end of the Law (Rom 10:4).

Neither Jews nor Messianic Jews are following the Law today, nor are being "Torah observant". Why? Because observing Holy Days and ancient customs mean absolutely nothing without blood sacrifice. And there can be no sacrifice without a Temple. And even if there were a Temple (which there shall be), it is IMPOSSIBLE for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin (Heb 10:1, 4). And since Israel broke their covenant with God (Jer 31:32), they cannot be redeemed back into covenant relationship with the ordinances of the Old Covenant, but only with the New (Jer 31:31; Heb 9:15).

Again... there shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED by observing any ordinance of the Old Law. Justification can only come through the righteousness of Jesus Christ:

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:” (Rom 3:20-22)

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”. (Rom 8:3-4)

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Gal 2:16)

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Gal 2:21)

And... there is no such thing as "Two Houses". Why? Because Christ broke down the middle wall of partition:

“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” (Eph 2:14-15)

Being "Torah Observant" gets you nowhere with God, because God no longer honors the deeds done under the Old Covenant.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

:thumbsup

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

What I got from this is that proper circumcision is of the heart in obedience to the commandments of God and that all should do this, that circumcision of the flesh profits nothing.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

no one is saying that righteousness comes by the law. messianic say I cor 7

18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised.


20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

jews are called to be torah observant. the middle wall of partition done away with is the wall in the temple between thr outer court and the inner court. the law and ordinances done awy with are the prohibitions of jews fellowshipping and sharing a passover meal. jew and gentile have equal standing before god but ethnic jews are still called to be torah observant.

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

Not by the NT they're not. Why? Under the Law, one cannot be "Torah Observant" without the blood sacrifice of animals. EVERY ceremony, EVERY holy day required the blood sacrifice of animals. Unless this is done, then one cannot be "Torah Observant".

And... you're misinterpreting those verses above. They are simply re-iterating what Paul had already said in Rom 2:28-29 and Gal 5:6 & 6:15- neither circumcision nor uncircumcision availeth ANYTHING, but rather becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus, and the circumcision of the heart (Col 2:10-13)!

Even if the Temple were re-built TODAY, and the Levitical priesthood were re-consecrated TODAY, and the blood sacrifice of animals were re-instituted TODAY, it would be to no avail. Why? Because it is I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. God no longer looks upon nor honors the blood sacrifice of animals, only the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the spotless lamb of God.

The middle wall of partition was abolished in Christ's flesh (Eph 3:15).

There is absolutely NO USE for someone, ethnic Jew or otherwise, to be "Torah Observant" unless they observe the WHOLE Law. If you observe one part of the Law, you are debtor (as you quoted above Gal 5:3) to do the WHOLE Law. It's an all-or-nothing thing. You cannot observe times and seasons, etc. and think you are being "Torah Observant", unless you practice blood sacrifice in the Temple.

And even IF someone could observe the WHOLE Law- which they can't, God has concluded all under sin (Ro 3:23; Gal 3:22)- it would STILL be to no avail, for righteousness does not even come by the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ (Gal 2:16).

Re: Messianic Judaism
 

Sister Alvear is correct:

Two sets of law The Law of Moses and The Noahide Law.Gentiles are only required to follow the Noahide Law.While Jews follow after both.A true Messianic Jew would believe in Oneness Monotheistic beliefs,which doctrine teaches Yeshua being the Messiah.Thus following Moses into the promise land whom is Jesus.