Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

52 year old Methodist pastor with impeccable past shoots and kills wife, wounds 18 year old daughter, then attempts suicide by locking himself in a bathroom and stabbing himself with a knife repeatedly in the chest and neck.

Please use the link and read the fascinating and disturbing news story from USA Today pasted below;

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ghter/1868157/

The internet exposes us to many local news stories we would not have ever known about a few years ago. For that reason I do not know if this type behavior is actually on the rise or we are just seeing reports of it now when it occurs outside of our local communities.

In any case when I read a case of a mother killing her children and or herself or something like this article I always wonder if it is a medical condition, mental illness, or demonic possession or influence that is the cause.

When you read a news story about some teenager or even adult who has a history of violent criminal activity it is not a shock to see them be accused of some horrific crime. Usually their history will be one of an extremely dysfunctional family and upbringing, etc.

However in cases like the one I have pasted the link to here it is much less clear. In this Pastor's case he had been suffering medical issues that included some type or heart surgery and then a 15 foot fall off of a back deck at his home while he was recuperating. One report said that he had some bleeding on his brain from hat fall. That indicates his brain may have been compromised.

Interestingly the church he had just moved to pastor has also just gone through the trauma of having a youth leader arrested on sex charges involving a minor. There is absolutely no connection between this pastor and that youth leader though. It was a situation he inherited when he became pastor there.

What do you think? In addition to all of the indirect attacks through culture, etc does satan directly influence or control people who have no history of violence to do heinous acts?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (II Timothy 3:1-5, KJV)

We ARE living in "the last days," therefore events such as this should come as no surprise to those who comprehend that which Paul was expressing in this letter to Timothy.

"Incontinent" is defined as ""powerless, impotent;" in a moral sense, unrestrained, "without self-control" (Vine's Expository of New Testament Words). Such shall be the "human condition" that many shall confront during these "last days." Why? Well, perhaps it might be attributable to "mental illness or demonic influence," both whose very "roots" are tracable to the "works" of the enemy, and most assuredly NOT of God.

God has given to each person the privilege of exercising "free will," meaning, we each, alone, are held responsible for the things which we do (or fail to do), and exercising the "blame game" does not relieve us of their eternal consequences. That is, our every action is determined by the decisions which we make, therefore we (alone) will be held accountable unto God for them. I hardly think that God will accept our "blaming the devil" for decisions we make that are in oppostion to His commandments (and surely the killing of another is among them)..

Some might think this is a rather "hard line" approach in determining the liability for such deplorable acts, but that's the manner in which I view it. Whether this be right or wrong, well, I'll leave that determination to the Judge of all the earth.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Lafon,

I agree completely about personal responsibility. However that does not preclude demonic influence or mental illness for that matter.

For examples, I know a Pentecostal preacher with early onset dementia who has been married for over 40 years but is now in a nursing home where he says one of the women there is his girlfriend. He has no clue as to who his wife is. Not long ago when she visited him she asked him what relation she was to him. He looked at her confused and after thinking a bit said tenatively "sister?". Now this man is one of the finest christian men I have ever known but I do not hold him responsible for not knowing he is married .

I am not saying demonic influence is an excuse for anything. I am just contemplating how much of the time when we see some horrific thing done by someone where it is totally out of character it might be a direct attack by satan on that person that succeeded. In New Testament accounts of demon possession how much of what that person did, once possessed, was controlled by them? Obviously we can resist satan, call on the name of Jesus, and he will flee. However once a person is possessed can they, without external help, eject that demon or demons?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

While I do not know about this man's specific situation, I believe demons can oppress a person until they become possessed. The result is quite often suicide or murder/suicide.

I also believe that demonization is to blame in more cases of "mental illness" than we realize.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

A persons mind is very fragile and delicate. I know that this is going to sound crazy and please don't stone me. But in every persons mind there is a touch of something that in the correct conditions could turn into mental illness.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

My wife's grandfather was always a gentle man until he started to change. He became both violent and took a mistress.

A few years later he was diagnosed with a brain tumor which was successfully removed, and lo and behold, his old personality came back.

Was his actions total free will or mental illness?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Was he able to undo the damage he had done while ill? What did he do with the mistress once well?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Well, THAT is a story. This whole process of him being violent occurred over several years at which point his wife left him (escaped actually) along with my wife's dad when he was just a young boy. Before all was said and done he married his "mistress" (before his surgery) and they spent the next 30+ years together. Eventually my wife knew both as grandma. :)

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I am sure that this gentleman's brain has been affected by his injuries. However, I am not sure that I have heard about something this dreadful happening.

Is the Minister remourseful?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

The article does not say whether or not he was placed on SSRI antidepressants after all he went through, so it is difficult to speculate how this poor individual got in this position.
I have read where SSRI medications have been known to alter the brain chemistry, sometimes for the good to help them work through their problems. Sometimes for the worse, which explains why there have been so many killings committed by people who are on these drugs. The majority of people who are on these types of drugs do not commit murder or any other crimes.

During my time of working with heart patients and with patients who have had a series of unfortunate events happen so close together, they are often placed on a SSRI drug to help them cope. No doctor knows just how the drug will affect their psyche until they take it for a period of time. It is hoped that it will help them to cope better.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

You bring up an excellent point that I overlooked. Reactions to medications can also be a factor in persons behaving in an unusual or violent way.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

True.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I dont remember demon possession linked to violent behavior growing up. I do remember there being a few who had demons and was there when they were cast out.


Not saying they arent connected just dont remember that.

I do know that a lot of the newer drugs used for treating mental illness/depression have side affects that increase violent behavior as you ramp up on those drugs.

a person going onto one of these meds may be a danger to themselves or others until they are stablized and "ramped up" to the proper dosage.

I know this now because I lost a close cousin 10 years ago when he was severly depressed. They would not commit him, but gave him some meds. He ended up killing himself. turns out the drugs can cause suicidal/homosidal thoughts/actions until the person gets up to a certain level.

On top of that, people with mental illness typically cycle on and off their meds. doing this brings back those chances of acting out every time they cycle back on.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I believe in demonic possession. From what i understand, a person who is demon possessed is still accountable for their sins. This is because demons cannot possess a person without "permission". If demons could possess random people, then everyone who wasnt saved would be demon possessed. Many people only become demon possesseed after giving evil spirits permission usually by engaging in certain sins, like withcraft, drug use, etc.

There is no reason a believer should become possessed.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

One main problem with Demon Possession: Who is to say whether it "IS" or "ISN'T"? This has become the nail in the coffin in Religion today, as clarifying the unseen is hit and miss with issues like this, and the end result being confusion.

Same goes with Prophecy: a million opinions that lead to nowhere, causing fear and imagination to unleash nothing but lies, and again, confusion.

Have we forgotten the Salem Witch Trials?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Medication is definately a factor in this equation.

Does anyone remember several years ago, an IBC student here in Indy, took her life, and it was totally out of character for her to do so? She was working with Lilly on an experimental drug at that time- and it caused her mind to start thinking 'whacky'. Two years ago, my doctor put me on that same drug because of the chronic pain that I live with. I was scared of it, but he assured me it was a safe drug. Guess what? Four weeks into my treatment, I started having suicidal thoughts. I am def NOT a suicidal person. I recognized it for what it was and called my doc- who immediately stopped the drug. The withdrawals were a nightmare and took almost 3 months to completely recover from !!!!! HORRID experience.

The mind is FRAGILE. We should handle it with great care.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Doc started me on Prozac. Two or three weeks into it I flushed the stuff.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Enough said......:heeheehee

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Maybe a religion that teaches you to listen to voices in your head is a factor sometimes. Just sayin'. ;)

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Hmm

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

:friend

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

do you mind sharing what drug that was?

people just have no clue what these drugs are doing...


Several years ago I started taking Strateria (sp) for Adult ADHD. It made me want to fight. I mean serious violent desires. I recognized it pretty quick and stopped but like you it took a few weeks to get back to normal.

Thank God I didnt do something really stupid.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I'll go with "A". Mental illness. Final answer.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Ya, what if your babysitter informs you that God told him or her to kill his or her son yesterday? Would it matter if this were 1500 BC and babysitter's name was Abraham?

:thumbsup

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

There is one important lesson to be learned in this discussion. It is FAR better to kill 10 (preferably 20) or more then just 1, 2 or 3. After all only CRAZY or possessed people commit the really BAD crimes, and thus need to be "understood" and "helped" whereas the person who kills a couple with get life.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

What a tragic story! I think it's safe to say that unless there is SOMETHING, ANYTHING that can be brought up in this man's past, he should be given the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. It just means perhaps he isn't responsible.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I know that girls pastor and spoke to him about it at the time. He said that she absolutely had no depression or suicidal tendencies before enrolling in that drug study.

From what I understand quite a few IBC students were enrolling in various drug studies there because it paid quite well for the amount of time involved and they used the money to help pay for school. I am sure that incident put a stop to that.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

They should all get life or the death penalty. One reason the insanity defense is rarely used and when used rarely works is that it is not a mater of whether you are crazy or not but a matter of did you know right from wrong when you committed the crime.

I was the jury foreman on a murder trial where we convicted a fifty something year old woman of murder. Her trial did not take place until a couple of years after the murder because she was nuts and they had to get her on the right medication to be sane enough to stand trial. She knew right from wrong all along but no doubt was mentally ill. The scary thing is that she choose to have the judge set the sentence rather than the jury and he gave her 20 years which means she will be getting out in a year or two if she has not already gotten out early for some reason. I have no doubt that she is capable of killing again. Of course now she is about 70 so it might be a little harder.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I think brain tumors should become one of our first thoughts when we see someone start to act out of character. I had a cousin who started to do whacky things. Fortunately they figured out fairly early it was a brain tumor.

And these medications that are supposed to 'help'...I would LOVE to see some studies or research done on how many tragedies that have occurred by these drug users. I'll bet there's a VERY high correlation. :nod

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I think that we'd be suprised with how many instances are a combination of both mental illness and demonic oppression/possession. In some cases a pre-existing mental illness can leave one more open to demonic enfluence. In other cases demonic enfluence can affect the person in such a way to bring on mental illness.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I'm not big on psychotropic medication that effects brain chemistry. I believe that in most cases spiritual deliverance from demonic enfluence and sound counseling do wonders. There may be a few cases where such drugs are necessary. But I believe they are far fewer than the industry would have us believe.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

One of the rare posts where I can agree with Aquila!

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

http://ssristories.com

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

You are absolutely correct. Also thyroid conditions can affect a person greatly. The UPC bible college I went to over 30 years ago had the good sense to realize all of this a few decades ahead of many Pentecostal leaders.

I remember being taught in a ministerial class that if saints are having issues or behaving strangely, out of character, etc before you assume spiritual oppression, possession, or even mental illness you need to first get them checked out by an MD looking for a physical / physiological explanation.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I wouldn't be here without evil psych drugs.

Seriously.

Since 1999, I have taken the same combination of drugs and it has allowed me to remain stable (no more trips to the emergency room), hold down a job (now nearly 15 years with the same company instead of jumping from job to job every six months), and, basically, have a life.

If someone told me I was demonically oppressed, I'd look at them and say (Seth Myers voice): "Oh REALLY?" So it's demonic oppression if the chemicals in my mind act up, but if my pancreas is insulin-sensitive, then it's OK to take metformin?

Let's be clear, these are prescription drugs and the potential side effects are reason enough why they're not sold over the counter. I think too many people tune out the side effects in all the medication ads on TV because the stuff promises to cure their biggest problem (arthritis, leaky bladder, a certain dysfunction common to men...). My mom was given Chantix to help her quit smoking, but instead it caused serious problems (and, to be blunt, is contraindicated for heart patients and she has two stents). However, if mom does not take her anti-schizophrenia medications, she's a danger to live with.

If there weren't a drug to treat my chronic major depression, I'd be hospitalized permanently or dead. The drugs are a lifesaver, and I do get annoyed when someone hints it could be demonic influences. *shakes head* Nope. When I take the drugs, everything is great. When I don't take the drugs, I get depressed and then want to kill myself. This is an easy formula for me. Take drugs, be a productive, taxpaying member of society. Don't take drugs: who knows?

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I'm happy you are a success story with drugs. I don't hear that too often. Usually the drugs have been bad for people in my experience. But it is good to hear a success story!

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

Could that be because it is usually just the bad experiences that are ever mentioned? Maybe you know a lot of people who use drugs successfully, but never mention it.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

There are many success stories such as yours when it comes to psychotropic medication.

I am thinking that the reason some of these drugs have such negative effects on so many people is simply that these people have no real physical need for these medications. Sometimes a proper, nutritional diet, exercise, sunlight and fresh air is what people need. Good wholesome friendships and affirmations will do wonders for a person who feels depressed.

But, in more serious situations, such as yours, medications are a lifesaver. I have seen some people vibrant and happy while on a medication that works for them.

Some physicians actually take time in questioning the patients so that they can accurately diagnose the patient and treat their needs.

Others just slap them on psychotropic medications that may be unneeded to see if it helps or not. A hit and miss type of doctoring. This is when I think that people have terrible reactions to the medications that they do not necessarily need.

I think mental illness is one of the most misunderstood and abused maladies in all of society.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

When they do mention it, it's like suddenly a 'pox' as been put on them socially in some places in society.

Some church folks avoid them like the plague because they have a 'lack of faith' and had to go on drugs.

Newspaper articles are riddled with crimes allegedly committed by 'mental patients'.

Just about every shooting spree is 'diagnosed' by the newspapers as a person known to have had 'mental problems'.

No wonder nobody wants to openly talk about their success story lest they find people looking at them all scary-like they are going to turn crazy and go after them to do harm to them.

Re: Mental Illness or Demonic Influence?
 

I suppose that could be true.