Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

The difference from how we were born versus how Jesus was born is the result of who is the father. The Father of Jesus is the eternal God from Heaven, while on the other hand the father of our natural born life living under the curse of death is from the earth, and is descended from Adam. Because life is in the blood and sin causes death, “in Adam all men die,” because of the sin handed down to us from Adam via our fathers that Jesus did not get from His Father; makes our blood different from the Blood of Jesus (1Cor.15:22).

From the start God’s mandate stated a seed must reproduce the image from what it came from, and because sin caused Adam to fall from the original sinless image of God he was first created in; God’s mandate meant that the image of the seed coming from Adam continue Adam’s sinful nature into the next generation. Therefore, the one-time clean, sinless, spirit and seed intended for humanity originally found in Adam from when God first breathed life into the form of Adam, was because of his disobedience to God no longer clean and without sin. This was accomplished when and how the spirit of man was joined together with the seed of the serpent that we can find within the curse given to Adam and Eve (who became one flesh Ge.2:24) for disobeying God. From that point on the serpent seed within the spirit of man was sentenced to “eat dust” through consuming the flesh of man (made from the dust of the earth) all the days of his life (Ge.3:14-15).

What Paul called the “law of sin,” as something “living within my members,” (Ro.7:23) lived within the unclean spirit of man Paul had inherited from the “seed” coming from his earthly father that was Paul’s original source of life. The law of sin is an evil principality living within mankind that can be found in every natural born man from the time of their conception until the time of their death (Ps.51:5). This evil principality did not appear in Jesus, because His source of life did not come from an earthly father. The "law of sin" is the serpent’s seed Paul called “ the messenger of Satan,” living in the spirit and soul of mankind that gives Satan dominion over the kingdoms of the earth. (Luke 4:5, 2Cor. 12:7)

Jesus, born from above never disobeyed His father, and by not having the law of sin in Him is why Jesus was able to call Satan, the “prince of this world who hath nothing in me," (Jn.14:30). Putting all of the above together allows us to see how the Blood of Jesus fulfills the prophecy within the blood of the Passover lamb sprinkled upon the doorposts of our heart is able to save us from sin and death. (1Jn.1:7). Because priests who do not live forever administered the blood of bulls and goats, and not through the testament of their own blood, the blood of animals cannot wash away the sins of man, and only served as a type and shadow pointing to the Blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Passover ritual and Day of Atonement rituals are perpetual sacrifices done each year by the Jews.

When you take the definitions for the words found in the phrase "law of sin," and put them together describes sin as a principality that defines it as a life-giving force albeit it is one unto death. The way the word “law” is being used here is the same as how the term “law of gravity” is always in effect unless overcome by a more powerful law. Consequently, the law of sin is continually wielding its power within us until it is overcome by a more powerful law such as the law of faith found within Christians that is more powerful than the law of sin is. This is because the law of faith is based on truths coming from the “seed of Christ in us” who has been given a name more powerful than any other name, and living in us as an antidote against the law of sin still in us. Because the law of faith coming from God is a law of truth makes the law of faith more powerful law than the law of sin that accomplishes its purposes through earthly man-made lies. This enables Christians with knowledge of the truth of the foundational doctrines of Christ (He.6:1-2) the ability to overcome temptation coming from the law of sin providing their knowledge is based on truth, and not false doctrines being taught by man.

Consequently, while we were born from a spirit that inclines us to commit sin, Jesus was born from the Holy Spirit of God who cannot sin. The good news is through the blessings of Pentecost and Passover together, we are born again with a partial gift of the Holy Spirit (2Cor.1:22) from the same Spirit of God that lived a sinless life in Jesus, which by law will live sinless in us as well. Because of this when a Christian commits a sin, it is the unclean sinful spirit of the “old man” still in them (Adam in us still under a sentence of death) who commits the sin, and not the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus freely given to us.

The reason why James told us not to be double minded is because Christians having both the spirit of man still in them from their natural born birth, and the Holy Spirit in them from their born again experience, allows them to hear from both spirits. On the other hand persons without the Holy Spirit only receive instruction from the spirit of man along with its knowledge of both good and evil, but still held captive under the dominion of the prince and power of darkness. Because the spirit of man is still under the dominion of Satan is why mankind cannot root evil out of the human race no matter how hard they try.

Christians who have been given the Holy Spirit have been given the power to become sons of God, and sons of God do not sin. However, at the start of our journey we are only given an “earnest of the spirit” meaning only a partial payment of the Holy Spirit because the seed that is Christ in us is only the bare grain of the Holy Spirit, and not a fully mature Tree of Life whose name is Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. (1Cor.15:37)

The journey from “Christ the seed” to a fully mature tree of life is what our sanctification is all about as it takes the Christian from being a babe in Christ to becoming a seasoned elder qualified to lay hands on others having already become a conduit for God’s miraculous healing powers. Fortunately, because it is a law of God, the law of the seed specifies that by law, and not whether it is seen either “darkly or clearly,” the seed that is Christ in us can only produce an image of Jesus Christ. However, there is no guarantee that it will ever produce anything! This is the message behind the parables of the talents and the “sower of the seed,” where the end result is most of the seeds do not produce anything, and only a few become 100 fold fully mature trees of life. (Luke 8:5-15)

The doctrine of original sin is a doctrine that not too many years ago was well established within the theological knowledge of most Christian denominations. Unfortunately, since then many have been led away from this understanding, and doing so has not been to their advantage. Now that we are leaving the 2000-year period of the Pentecostal anointing, and moving into the age for receiving the greater Tabernacles anointing, knowledge of the truth is going to be a requirement for us if we do not want to be found lacking the necessary anointing, and in the similitude of the foolish virgins.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

The doctrine of Original Sin is a farce, and could no be defined even by the Council of Trent, who insisted upon it over Augusine's objections. While it is not needed in order for one to agree with your entire missive, excluding the last paragraph, it is essential in order to subjugate a population, and you have bought a nefarious line, told to you by some guy, who misinterprets Scripture, sorry. A baby cannot sin, and there is fulsome evidence in Scripture for the principle of Original Sin being a farce. You have been deceived, and some quite simple study will point out the lie to you. This article
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models
will quote God on the matter for you, and I'm curious what you might think about it.

Christ died for our sins; but He rose, and lives. Peace to you.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Looking at the link you provided it seems that you are the one between the two of us who has been led away by the teachings of man. I do not sit at the feet of any man, and if you do a search on the book whose cover appears as my avatar you can read what no one else has ever taught since the time of the apostles who “spoke in a mystery”.

As far as the opinions of your early councils or early writers, they do not get any more credit from me then your link does that is influenced by the studies of other religions for determining how to worship God. Bottom line is those who worship in spirit and in truth are able to have their faith proven in the same manner that James said his faith could be proven. That my friend is only when God uses you as a conduit when answering your prayers with miracles and signs and wonders the same way, God did for the apostles.

Being as most of my post cannot be read anywhere else I am left with the conclusion you are looking to argue something that is way over your head.

On the other hand if you want to take time and legitimately debate my post by considering the Scriptures I have provided, and how you can prove they mean something different from what I have said, I will be willing to take the time to read more of what you have to say.

Other than that we are already finished.

Fair enough?

Blessings

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

This place sure does attract a fair number of self-appointed "modern day prophets" who are quite certain they are the only ones right about scripture.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

The titles “prophet and apostle” are IMO about the most misused words associated with titles given today. Not that the title of "pastors" is much better when you consider of the 7 times they are mentioned in the Old Testament, only one time are they done so favorably.

On the other hand God's laws for determining truth when followed as God lays them out for us to follow, allows anyone to come to the truth. Seems from what you are saying that has not yet happened with you.

However, the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy that should allow anyone with the testimony of Christ to understand the prophecies of the Scripture. That is what allowed the apostles and prophets of the Bible who were on one accord with each other to worship in spirit and in truth.

Now do you have anything to contribute supported with scripture either postively or negatively about the post I made, or are you just one more person who likes to throw around slanderous remarks like two old ladies at the fence gossiping about the young ones?

Fair enough?

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

http://i.imgur.com/Lh0Hg.jpgUm, not interested in your opinion of me; and pass for now, but ty.
Translation: "I am oblivious to the Council of Trent, and the initial schism that divided the Christian Church; and I am now so steeped in a spurious "Christianity" of the Western stripe that I cannot even see the forest for the trees (being as how I read the 'early writers,' like it or not, by translation, every time I open my Bible), let alone argue for Original Sin, or even define it satisfactorily to this body."Um, what? And ty, but I seem to be doing fine at the moment. :lol
Now you're talking! I say that your references have been heinously mis-interpreted to you, for the purposes of subjugating us, and that A BABY CANNOT SIN, all of which is outlined in step one of the article, with quotes from God ("No more will I contest with man, whose thoughts are evil FROM HIS YOUTH") below; what say you?
Um, did you just dismiss me? :lol
Are you for real?
Can also be curses...looking forward to your riposte, Doug.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

:popcorn2

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

I would be curious to hear anyone's defense of Original Sin; I will not even reply! It was traveling to locales as a worker bee that I absorbed other Christian doctrines, and came to see how self-defeating this doctrine was, from all but the empire-builder's standpoint. Which led me to O.S., which despite 10 years of Sunday school, I discovered I knew nothing about. So I asked a preacher, and you shoulda seen his face :lol youda thought I was asking him to sanction a re-crucifixion :lol I knew after that, really. Shhh, it's a big secret, better not tell :lol

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

All of your rambling reveals someone who has been educated beyond their level of intelligence.

For your information the word “sin” appears within the Scriptures as both a verb and a noun. Babies do not have to commit the verb (transgression a.k.a. violation of the law of God) to have the noun that is passed down to them through the seed coming from their earthly father.

If you're willing to depart the legend of your own mind and take a look at the Scriptures you will see that babies are born under the curse of death, and it is sin that causes death (at least according to the Scriptures if you're willing to consider them)

This is something that Jesus was not born with because he came from a heavenly father with the seed of the Holy Spirit that cannot sin, and not the seed within the spirit of man that all naturally conceived babies come from.

Furthermore, if babies were not born with sin as a noun in them that's definition defines it as a living principality even though it is one unto death because it resulted from the curse, "you shall die," God would be violating his own promise not to hold the child responsible for the sins of the parents.

Of course I understand people such as yourself who have difficulty adding 2+2 and coming up with the correct answer, have chosen to go outside of the Scriptures and look to other religions for how they are to worship God.

How repugnant

Blessings anyway

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

The defense of original sin is already laid out in my original post with Scripture references. I'm more than willing to discuss it with you but I would like you to consider the Bible as the only source of authority and not the words of any man no matter who they may be.

If you can do that we can have a dialogue on the subject.

Blessings

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Livelystone, are you suggesting that Christ did not inherit a human nature from Eve?

Do you have a Mennonite background?

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Not a Mennonite nor a member of any other organized form of religion. I have been to many of them and in some cases have traveled far in hopes of finding one I would like to attend a regular basis.

Not sure what you mean by human nature? Man (male and female) is a physical body with a spirit that has a soul, and Jesus had a physical body with a spirit and soul residing within the same as man does. However, there is a significant difference between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of man.

The spirit of man comes within the seed of man handed down from their earthly father whereas the spirit for the seed that is Christ came from God in heaven.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Menno Simons believed that Christ did not inherit a human nature from his mother, Mary. Similar to the way Teklemarian taught that God 'created' the flesh of Jesus in Mary's womb. This doctrine is similar to the Immaculate Conception doctrine of the Catholics in regard to Mary. They hold that Mary was conceived without original sin so she could bear Christ without passing it on to Him.

Teklemarian taught that Christ's flesh was divine, and therefore free from original sin.

This seems to contradict the Bible which as far as I can tell makes no distinction between Christ's human nature and ours, which in turn leads to the conclusion that inherited original sin, as some sort of substance inhering in the human nature itself and which is passed on to children, is a false doctrine.

BTW, I asked about Christ inheriting a human nature from Eve, I meant from Mary. Sorry.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

I am confident that Mary's DNA would've appeared in the nourishment that she supplied for the unborn baby Jesus. However, as the Scripture say the life is in the blood and the blood of Mary was kept separate from the unborn baby Jesus by the placenta.

I do not buy into the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and Mary being without sin. For that matter other than the identity of Jesus, and that he died on the cross for our sins is about the only teaching I still carry from being raised in a Christian upbringing.

As a very young teenager I told my parents I did not want to be saved anymore so I could be spared the regimental guidelines of a fundamental church and become more like the rest of the kids I went to school with.

Fast forward to when I was 45 years old I had a car accident in which I flatlined and spent some time on the other side that I remember very well. Unfortunately it is contrary to what most churches teach concerning the resurrection, yet because it supports the Bible, groups formed exclusively by people who have also had what could be termed as out of body experiences, also reject what I say because it supports the Bible that they reject.

Consequently, after unsuccessfully searching for a place to worship and turning to God asking him were do I go to find the truth, for the 1st time I heard his voice and he told me not to go anywhere but come to Him. That is what I have done, albeit it has not been without a price.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

So do you believe that babies are born innocent?
If so when do they become corrupted?
Also how are they corrupted?

* By corruped I mean sinful.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Ah, thank you for the timely demo there. Look, impeaching the Doctrine of Original Sin does not deny any of your points; it merely dismantles the notion, fostered by those you have not yet become aware of, but in whose thrall your are completely, that you are a worthless thing, and God does not love you. Sure, it isn't put that way, but that is the end result.

It describes our fascination with skulls. It's why we like to wear black. And yet, you could ask 100 people "What happened at the Council of Trent?" and I'm willing to bet that you would not get a single correct reply. Wadr, I don't think you could answer correctly. The answer has irrevocably changed your life forever; and the knowledge has been intentionally obscured from you.

Christ died for our sins, which every human will inevitably commit, due to Adam's sin nature; but this has been twisted into a dark, indefinable 'Doctrine' meant only to enslave. Peace to you.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

"...and so I WILL stop contending with man, who is evil from his youth..."

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Although I must grant the difference in the Law of sin and the doctrine of Original Sin; they are two different things; but unfortunately, what comes down to us is OS.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Peace to you as well

I'm not getting everything you are saying but I will take the blame for that. Since you seem to be a little more perceptive than I am let me try this approach.

Sin is an ugly thing anyway you look at it until viewed as part of the overall plan that includes the future for all of mankind and not just a few individuals. (As in Jesus is the saviour of the world and especially of those who believe; 1 Timothy 4:10)

Because God is a just and balanced God, everything has an opposite therefore we have the knowledge of both good and evil. Because the law of polarity is a universal law meaning that opposites within a given atmosphere must attract each other. Consequently and by a "universal law" Satan had to appear in the garden as well as he had to try to tempt Jesus. In other words the appearance of evil is a given the same as darkness follows after light. Quite obviously God being the author of all universal law knew this before the beginning

To make a long story short, (for now) because evil was successful in deceiving Eve who Adam chose to follow over the commandment of God, evil took on sin that brought on a condemnation of death to the one flesh that Adam and Eve became. Amen? i think so!

Because sin was condemned to death all evil is going to die here on earth because this is where it has been sentenced to death thus creating a place where father and son can abide together where evil will never appear again because it has already died the sentence it was given here.

God was not caught by surprise when Adam sinned, and for that matter Adam's sin was part of the plan that would result in evil being sentenced to death. In my opinion once we understand this we can go about seeing how God's ultimate plan for man had to be kept hidden throughout the ages. However when fully understood by those who will be first to overcome sin, will be shown onto the world by the church who through knowledge and grace from above has already overcome sin.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Amen.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

However when fully understood by those who will be first to overcome sin, will be shown onto the world by the church...

Except I don't get this part; but the rest was deep : )

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Wow where to start. First off there is no angle at which sin can be viewed to make it anything but ugly and terrible.

Secondly sin has no redeeming qualities and as to how it relates to the whole world is clearly shown in the bible as:

Those who through faith in the death of Jesus on the cross have had it removed they go to heaven.

Those who choose to live in sin and die in sin they go to eternal punishment in the lake of fire for eternity.

please show me how sin brightens that picture at all?




To say that God planned for Adam to sin is 100% false and can be easily be shown so in two basic ways:

1. This makes God not Adam the one who chose for sin.

2. This would make God not mankind responsible for ending up hell.

Please further explain what you aresaying here.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

I am consolidating my postings on the subject of original sin/sin nature in the other thread to save space. I will post there later today Lord willing.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

You have an unusual and very high level of perception.

Regarding the sentence you have quoted:

Our faith is what we believe so while on one hand we have the tree of knowledge of good and evil within us handed down from when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that tree that since the time of our birth has been growing in strength producing either good or evil fruit from us, on the other hand there is a seed of Christ in us that is the measure of our faith (Christians only). Because of the tree of knowledge within all of the human race is why no matter how hard man tries cannot eradicate evil from within, therefore the world remains saddled with wars, crime, poverty, etc., etc.

At the time we come to the cross (trying to make a long story shorter by not taking the time to deal with those who have just had a short time emotional experience with God) and have the blood with the life of Jesus within it sprinkled upon our hearts that cleanses us from all sin, the seed that is Christ that is beginning of the tree of life is planted in us. Because this seed is not an earthly seed but is a heavenly seed, it will only grow on the word of God coming from heaven. Consequently, it will not grow on the traditions of man and false doctrines that have no effect on it but do continue to feed and strengthen the Adam and Eve aka tree of knowledge of good and evil still within us (our "old man") that is at odds with God.

For those who figure out the truth and are able to discern between the clean and the unclean will experience the tree of life in them continue to grow stronger every day taking up more and more of the available space thus at the same time effectively putting to death the tree of the knowledge of good and evil within us. This works on the same process that light displaces darkness rather than darkness being changed to light that as simple as it sounds is important to comprehend because of it being a universal law it applies to the seed that is Christ in us growing and taking up all the available space displacing who we were before coming to Christ.

When this process is completed the person with the fully mature tree of life that is the fullness of Christ in them cannot commit a sin because Christ cannot sin. In Revelations they are called "leaves for the healing of the nations" that God can and will produce fruit aka singns and wonders from. John the Baptist understood this process of how good would overcome evil, therefore at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus he said the following words.

Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Because "faith ONLY cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God," the growth of the tree of life within us is not our work but is the work of God. Albeit, its life is sustained and enhanced under the process of one man plants and another man waters, but all the increase is from God. This is why we cannot increase our faith because faith is not a measure of the intensity of our belief, but is the fullness of the measure of our belief in the truth in us.(Why Paul warns us not to fall into the spirit of unbelief in the truth that will keep us out of the promise land of living in harmony with God because all lies are from satan and nothing from satan can enter into the mind of christ)


John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

1 Corinthians 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

In the final conclusion those who overcome sin is not because they have become better at resisting sin than others have, or become more able than they were before, but because of the hedge of protection of God around them protecting the tree of life in them the same way God did when he kicked out Adam and Eve and installed his flaming sword at the entrance. This flaming sword is the word of God that is able to both save and destroy.

The only thing that withholds how far Satan can go in his attempt to snare us is the will of God, and is shown to us within the lessons of Job. Paul experienced this too because when the hand of God was not protecting him he was ruled over by the thorn in his flesh humbling and reminding him he was nothing without God.

If there is any advantage I have for being a significant player within the dark side for as many years as I was is I realize it never had anything to do with any ability on my part to resist going deeper in crime but the grace of God that has protected me from not doing worse things than I have.

As the Scriptures say the eyes of the Lord go to and fro looking for those whose heart is right before him so that he may appear strong on their behalf. Appearing strong on one's behalf may include signs and wonders but most importantly is keeping them separate from evil, but not so much as being protected from afflictions but not becoming part of evil itself.

Those who apprehend this will be the ones to show the way for others also known as the 144,000 gates into New Jerusalem that is the mind of christ coming down from heaven as bride for the Holy Spirit in us.

Saying this much on a public forum surprises me but I do not think it would have happened if it is not meant to understood.

Blessings

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

It is not a case that sin brightens the picture but because evil took on sin that resulted in evil being sentenced to death. The whole time the seed of the serpent is consuming the dust of the earth that makes up our physical bodies, the thorn in our flesh that is Satan's messenger in us aka the law of sin is already self-destructing. This is the beauty within God's plan; because evil already had to exist in the spiritual realm, but then when it appeared in the physical realm, by becoming sin it was sentenced to death.

The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.

While on one hand death is a result of sin; the death that is a result of sin brings forth more sin because once one leaves the presence of God that is the only thing that can withhold sin, sin rules over them. Therefore, the sting of death is sin because once we are separated from God we are in a state of death and there is nothing left to withhold sin.

However even when sin continues unchecked in its cancerous assault on humans it is self-destructing because the only place it can exist is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh.


Because as the Scriptures say before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy, there was a plan made for evil to be destroyed (learning to hate evil is part of the beginning of wisdom). In the begining Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit. The statement in the verse saying they communed in the cool of the day translated means they communed in the spirit because the same spirit that gave Adam life from the breath of God was the spirit of God.

As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.

This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The above verse speaks of when God changed Adam that made Adam's sin a foregone conclusion, and not a matter of if but a matter of when.

This happened when God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and a bone was taken from him that was used to form Eve. To try to shorten this long story a little bit I'm going to hope that this point you can see that at this point the flesh of Adam was given a mind and a voice of its own that is something that was not coming from Adam before he sinned, because before Eve, Adam only followed the mind of Christ he was first created with that could not sin.

However when Adam followed the voice of Eve who that was taken from his flesh that used the senses within the flesh to determine what was good or bad, instead of continuing on with following the commandment of God, Adam deliberately made a decision contrary to the commandment of God, therefore sin and death entered into all of mankind

However, his decision resulted in evil becoming sin that got it sentenced to death. Consequently, and for the first time since both good and evil were both created by God,(Isaiah 45:7) evil started to destroy itself.

The plan was/is absolutely brilliant and only God in heaven could ever come up with such a plan (why the morning stars, aka sons of God jumped for joy; Job 38:7 ) let alone put it into effect (or as the verse above says, "subject the same unto hope)

God has accepted responsibility for man's sin and is why He appeared on earth in human form to suffer and die for us. We can deal with what hell is all about at a later time, meanwhile if you would do a search on the times the word "hell" appears in Psalms and how it is used will help.

Blessings

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

"To say that God planned for Adam to sin is 100% false and can be easily be shown so in two basic ways:

1. This makes God not Adam the one who chose for sin.

2. This would make God not mankind responsible for ending up hell."

My arguments, as if any were needed, against the doctrine of OS; precisely. Please add this to the abundant Scriptural evidence against OS, ty. Lively, I'll have to get back to you.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

All I can say is please present your case carefully so by the time you are done you will realize what I have shared has God's approval.

Other than that be blessed

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Are you trying to tie the heretical doctrine of the serpent and eve doing things that resulted in the serpent seed into the correct and biblical doctrine of original sin which states that in adam we all fell?

No where does the Bible ever say that the thorn in Pauls flesh was the law of sin. If you will remember Paul says in in Romans 8:2 that he was made free from the law of sin. How then in light of romans 8:2 can you say that the thorn in Paul's flesh that he prayed for God to remove and God rather than freeing Paul from the thorn gave him the grace to bear it? Did Paul call God a liar by saying God freed him from the law of sin while God said the thorn remained, or are the law of sin and the thorn two different things?

Also you are supposeing that evil eisted before the creation of the earth and for this there is no biblical support.

Where do you get they were to live for a thousand years?
They died physically in that they lost thier immortality or to put it more simply they became suseptible to death.



I agree that man became separated from God In that they became sinners but to say that this is the only death that is the result of sin sounds like you are saying that God created man to die.

Sin is not self destructing at all it is doing its job which is to carry out satans plan to kill steal and destroy.

What did you mean by this statement " is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh" ?


The bible does not say that "before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy."

But what it does say is:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


You are coming very close to making Adam into a God by saying that he and God were of the same Spirit, and what on earth do you mean by saying that God was of any Spirit? God was and is eternal the causeless first cause who came from nowhere and is going nowere but fills everywhere. No one or nothing made God and God did not originate from anywhere God has simply always been.

Please show me the verse that says adam could not sin in the beginnig.
Adam was not created to sin and he was not created sinful rather Adam was created with the ability to choose to sin and was thus a free moral agent.


No the verse you are speaking of has nothing whatsoever to do with any change happening to adam so that he would sin. Please explain to me useing the context of the scripture cited how this verse has anything to do with a change being made in adam?

You are again makeing God the author of sin and blameing all the sin on earth both past and present on God. That is blasphemous!!!!

God is holy, just and pure but you make Him out to be the originator of sin!!!!

So you are basicly saying that before EVE was made that Adam could not sin?
(Have you told your wife About this doctrine lol :heeheehee )
The Bible says that:

Gen.2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The reasons that the Bible gives for Eve being made was because it was not good for man to be alone and to be a helpmeet for adam. Where do you get that this gave adam the ability to sin? How can God call her a helpmeet if she is going to cause the destruction of him?

Also to say that adam could not sin before Eve was made is to throw out the verses that proceed her forming.

Gen.2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The command was given before woman so the possibility to sin existed before woman.



The verese in Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God created sin all that one has to do is read the verses around it to see that the evil that is here spoken of is war not sin. This is speaking of the invasion of babylon by the medes and the persians. The evil here is being contrasted by peace not righteousness.



Where on earth does the Bible ever say that God was responsible for mans sin or where does it every say that God said it was all His fault?

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Are you coyly trying to suggest that I am implying that Eve had sex with the serpent? For your information by consuming the seeds of the knowledge of good and evil found in the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, good and evil appeared in Adam and Eve that was manifested physically in Abel and Cain.

Please do not even suggest that I would ever imply anything bad about the most prolific writer of the New Testament. Fair enough?

Paul called the thorn in his flesh the messenger of Satan able to humble him in the same manner that he called the law of sin in him to be what caused him to do what he did not want to do, and not do what he wanted to do that was to follow his desire to serve God with his mind. Amen? I think so!

It is only when the law of faith in Paul was in control that Paul was free from the law of sin and the same applies to us. When a Christian yields to the lusts in their flesh left from the memories of sin done in one's past they commit a sin. Until they repent from this sin, the principality of the law of sin will remain in control of them. A person's body does not do what the mind does not tell it to do. Therefore, when a Christian commits a sin it is because the mind of Christ who cannot sin was not ruling over them but instead the mind of man who they were before coming to Christ has regained control the mind. This is the lesson within the parable of the unclean spirit leaving a person's heart but going no further than the dry places that are made up of the dust of the earth that make up our physical body where it unites with all of the former lusts still in the flesh and together they retake the person's heart leaving the Christian worst off than they were before ever receiving the Holy Spirit that was the cause of the unclean spirit departing the heart in the first place.(Because light displaces darkness)

Wrong! God has always had knowledge of all things that includes the knowledge of evil.

The Bible says God created light and dark along with good and evil. Quite obviously evil had to be created before the serpent appeared to tempt Eve. Amen? I think so!

The Bible says a day is 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day. They did not die physically at the time they committed their sin but only spiritually seen when because of their sin God gave them the boot out of the garden. Adam did not live to be 1000 years old so he did die both spiritually and physically "in that day".

If not for sin Adam would have never died. Adam was created in the same sinless condition Jesus was born in. The only reason why Jesus died in the flesh was because he chose to. However, because his death was a violation of the law made his resurrection a given.

Sin is condemned to death because in Adam all men die because of the sin within them that is consuming their flesh causing their ultimate death when the spirit leaves the body taking the soul with it to be judged. This should not be so hard that you cannot see it.

Adam and Eve represent the spirit and soul that every person is born with. Adam is also the name given to the human race and as long as a person remains "in Adam" they will die. However through Christ's a.k.a. the "last Adam," they are made alive as passing from death unto life. We are all born under the curse of death and at the point after death all are judged for better or for worse.

Who do you suppose the morning stars were? Is not Jesus both the MorningStar and the son of God? The spirit of the word that reflects the nature of the verse is that the morning stars and sons of God are the same unless you want to go by the letter of the word and assume that stars sing and snakes talk. Until you leave the letter of the word behind you will never understand the allegory's in the Old Testament that are for our edification. You don't have to believe me but instaed go see what Paul has to say about that.


God is a spirit and the breath of God is the same as when Jesus breathed on his chosen disciples and said receive ye the Holy Ghost. Amen? I think so.

Adam was created with the mind of Christ because he was born of the Spirit of God and the mind of Christ cannot sin.......... EVER!!!

Suggest you look up the definition for the phrase “made subject to vanity”. Added to the words “not willingly” plainly says that Adam was not part of the plan but this was something done by God to Adam that I've already explained.

You are not qualified to charge me with anything let alone blasphemy.

A lot of your statements reflect your ignorance of the Scriptures that plainly say God created evil and gives plenty of examples when God uses evil to bring wayward children back into line. For that matter he even called Nebuchadnezzar to be his servant while he was performing a bloodbath in Israel out of God's chosen people.

Why do you suppose Satan approached Eve instead of Adam? Maybe you should ask your wife!

I erased all of your remarks and verses that are totally irrelevant. However I left this one with the hope you can see the errors within you're thinking. If Adam had sinned before Eve was formed he would've already been kicked out of the garden. The term “Garden of Eden” translated means “fence of God” because within that fence only life that is in harmony with God can exist, and that is why Adam got kicked out of the garden because sin destroys the harmony between God and man.


Are you trying to tell me that the Bible does not say that God created evil? Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Do you really put any thought into what you are saying? To be frank it sounds like you are rearranging in your own words what you heard from someone else.

Quite obviously God was able to make Jesus without sin and Adam was created of the same conditions (the Holy Spirit and physical matter that had not been defiled) that Jesus was born in when the Holy Spirit was deposited in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

Without Adam being altered by God when he was made subject to vanity he had about as much chance of committing a sin as Jesus did.

Here is a question for you that will hopefully get you thinking in the right direction. Being as Jesus was the spirit and soul of God manifested in human flesh, do you think it was possible for Jesus to have committed a sin and never have become the lamb sent to save the world from sin?

If you think Jesus being the spirit and soul of God manifested in flesh coming from a virgin could, sin then you are saying God can sin and are void of any knowledge of spiritual things

On the other hand if you realize that Jesus could not sin, and that Adam was created in the same sinless conditions that Jesus was born in....... then you have come a long ways since your first post on this thread.

I hope that is the case

Blessings

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

There is no doctrine of Original Sin in Scripture. It was invented by Augustine, who personally did not believe it, and adopted by the Council of Trent. I'm convinced that Satan then went to some lengths to obscure all this, so that you now argue points for OS that are pertinent to the Law of sin and death. Original Sin is a myth; a construct. A fatal premise. Period.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

I have pondered whether to even respond to this thread. Luke has already addressed the major points quite well. What you present is a Biblical and theological mess. Your entire argument is a convoluted tangle of philosophical speculation and faulty exegesis. You even have me agreeing with bbyrd and that in and of itself speaks volumes.

After reading Luke's rebuttal, there is very little I have to add. He covered the main flaws. But in re-reading just now I noticed your response to bbyrd: "All I can say is please present your case carefully so by the time you are done you will realize what I have shared has God's approval."

That my friend is hubris at best and certainly a deception. No one speaking with 'God's approval" could have written the following:

“The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.”

“In the beginning Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit.”

“As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.”

“This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.”

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I am not sure of your motive in posting. I choose to believe that you are sincere. But my friend you are seriously deceived in your theology and your view of God is horrendous.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Larry, I rebuke you in Jesus name!......... and after what you have posted for sure I am not your friend

You are totally off the wall and without any support for saying what you have accused me of. However, I must thank you for being so adamant because before reading your post I was actually thinking rather highly of you. Thank you for showing me my error and that you are no different from most others who cannot tell their left hand from the right hand about the things of God.

Furthermore, you say you believe in signs and wonders as evidence to God's approval and blessings on a chosen people; Amen? I think so!

Do you have testimony of God's healing people of terminal diseases by you laying hands and praying over them, do you have testimony of God raising the dead by you laying hands and praying over someone? Because I do and have the witnesses to back my words.

Before you start making more false accusations about false prophets etc.etc, consider this. When someone dies the spirit goes back to God, and only God can determine whether or not the spirit should return to the person who left. In other words to make it simple enough for you to be able to understand through your over-educated level of intelligence, Satan cannot raise the dead!

You are a perfect example of how since the time when the apostles were at the helm, the seminaries of man and their man made degrees have been leading the children of God into false worship for so long now that evil is called good and good is called evil,

You should have remained silent and not gone with the false prophet charges you have made against me........ Without repenting this will not work out well for you!

Doug

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Doug, I accept your rebuke in the spirit in which it is given. I stand by my words. You are teaching false doctrine, plain and simple. Perhaps I could have been a bit more "diplomatic." Like I said, I choose to believe your intentions are good. It does not change the nature of your postings, however. This has nothing whatsoever to do with friendship or opinions. It is a simple matter of guarding the truths of Scripture. In no way do I mean to imply that all you believe is heresy. However, the things you have posted above are simply not biblical and when it was pointed out to you by others, your response was even more off base than your original statement.

All of us, myself included are to be subject to the teachings of scripture. None of us are above correction. I have been corrected on this forum and rightly so in that case and I did repent and apologize. I therefore do repent if I have in anyway misjudged you. Perhaps you were not making yourself clear. But I have gone back over your posts and shared them with some trusted advisors and the teachings you are presenting are simply not biblical and have no basis in scripture.

Let me clarify one thing. I believe that God confirms His Word with signs and wonders. But I do not accept the premise that the mere presence of a sign or a wonder is automatically God's stamp of approval, no! We are warned that in the last days there will be false signs and wonders, that have the potential of deceiving even the elect.

All teachings must be judged by the ruler of the whole of scripture. Perhaps you are right. I should not have judged you so harshly. For that I sincerely ask your forgiveness. Would you be willing to start fresh? Can we look at what you are teaching together in the Word? And let the Word alone be our guide? Would you be open to that? If not, I understand.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Doc the more I read the more I like you!

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

:lol I am standing on the backs of giants, and my position here is not original; you either see and agree with this

http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models

or you do not. While only one reference is given, this is the result of much study that MFox just happened to put the most succinctly. I'm curious to hear any objections to any points in the article, ty.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Thanks NAVY! Were you really in the NAVY? When? My hat is off to you. Thank you for defending our freedom. Recent events highlight the importance of such sacrifice.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Guys, you can truncate, after you hit 'quote,' as I've done here...ty.

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Yikes, don't even get me started. I was also in the Navy, and believe me, defending your freedom had, and has, nothing to do with it. that is strictly for public consumption. You are being had on multiple levels. Have a nice day. Hi, NG! Have I ticked you off yet? :lol

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Mark I just figured your up in smoke with some Colorado farm fresh :happydance

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...SEijb5_7GE8iGQ

Re: Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin
 

Yea Doc I got to hang out for 25 (1981-2006) years been retired going on 7 years.

My hat goes off to all public first response teams.