Universal Salvation
 

There are those, like CrakJak, who believe everything ever damned will eventually be restored in salvation.

I strongly disagree with it, but let's discuss this. I want to tackle it and get into all the chapters that universal salvationists use.

They use Romans 5 and say that unless Christ's salvation restores EVERYONE, then Adam's sin was more powerful than Christ's redemption, since Adam made ALL MEN SINNERS.

He's the only one that believes this around here, as far as I know.

Oh. Might not get much traffic, I guess, eh?

Thanks Bro. Blume, let's to it. How about this just to get it started, this is going to be fun, because when folks honestly look at all the evidence UR is difficult to deny.

(Rev. 20.11) Records White Throne Judgment, (Rev. 21.9)The New Jerusalem, then (Rev. 22.2) "In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life...yielding its fruit EVERY month. The leaves of the tree for the HEALING of the nations."

Apparently, the nations (peoples) are still being saved.

It seems God's purpose of purging, correcting and purifying continues. Chapter 21 says the gates of the city will never be closed, and that the kings of the earth will come into the city. Chapter 22.15 says there are "dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murders and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie", that are still in need of salvation, they are not in some hellhole.

The gates stay open, there are sinners outside and there are leaves for their healing available, the implication is that salvation is still in process. These facts also seem to support ultimate reconciliation for all.

Of course, if you are preterist, this is symbolism for the New Covenant age, which I tend to agree with. But it is problem for most, believers in endless torment.

Probly from him, defending his belief. But I don't think there are others that believe this teaching, to be honest with you. But, it may turn out to be the argu.....er....discussion to end all discussions. Ya never can tell around here. :)

That is why I think this speaks of general salvation now. :) I once taught a lesson about how Psalm 1 corresponds with Ezekiel 47 and Rev 22. Those who are saved are shown forth relying upon the Spirit that is shed forth ever since the day of Pentecost, as Peter termed it in Acts 2, like a river of living water.

The leaves represent the GIFTS for healing, and the fruit are the fruit of the Spirit. Leaves and fruit are noted in those who are like trees planted by the waters.

But Psalm 1 says this about universal or not:

Those who come to salvation NOW are invited to come and drink of the water of life freely.

So I regard this as a NOW thing, anyway.

Unless it is speaking of now, as I see it.

That is why I think this is NOW. Presently outside the City, the church (Heb 12:22), there are sinners. And the gates are open so they can get saved.

Right, and you have a point with futurists.

Univeral Reconcilation is being discovered in the scriptures from coast to coast. So if you don't believe it you better get to studying, because we are way ahead of you.

Gotta be out awhile, will check back late tonight.

No thanks. I avoid heresies at all costs.

Yeah, I understand.

If you believe in endless torment. Please, show how billions of years of unbearable torment equals "just recompense" for a short life of sin. Take in to account that the condemned was born by no fault of his own, into a fallen world, with a highly developed deciever to decieve. Then take into account that Paul the apostle to the Gentiles never once threatens sinners with clarity of any threat of "endless" torment.

See ya, later.

What about those who believe in annihilation of the wicked? Not saying I do, since I do not lean that way.

I could buy into the ahhihilation doctrine before I could UR. UR is not a new doctrine. It has been around for a LONG time. It makes a cycle every so many years and there are people who buy into it and try to propagate it. So far, it has not taken very much of a hold on any generation.

If UR is true, then taken to it's logical extreme, the preaching of salvation and the obedience to salvation is a complete waste of time. Why not just enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? (my entire life)

What could be wrong with total indulgence if one tries not to let anyone else get hurt in the process?

I've looked at this doctrine and it seems to have no lure for anyone except those who desire to live a life of licentiousness.

Wise words. The point is that it is pointless for us NOW, if it is true. Even if there WILL be an age ahead that redeems everyone ever lost, it is irrelevant to us today since we are still to deny the flesh and learn to be Spirit led, etc. So I deem the issue to be futile, since the bible clearly does not plainly state things about it, if it was true, compared to what the bible DOES speak about plainly.

There is no endless torment. There will be a season of suffering for all the wicked whether it be long or short. But do not err beloved the wages of sin is death.

21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:21-23

The end of those things is death? I thought all men die? Indeed we all do die. But the death Paul speaks of here is a death that comes because of a sinful life.

The same thing is taught here:

12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:12-13

But Paul still died didnt he? If this is merely talking about temporal life and death we have a problem. Paul said if you live after the flesh you will die. Did he live after the flesh? Absolutely not! Yet he died when this writing says he should have lived.

Those who mortify the deeds of the body will live. Yet every one since Jesus Christ has died. Did not even one person mortify the deeds of the body?

We have to see the doctrine Paul taught (same as Yeshua) was with eternity in focus. Those who walk in the flesh WILL DIE. Not just the death that ALL including the saints die.

They will die for eternity. The righteous will live the wicked will die. For eternity.

Frank J. Ewart got involved with this teaching for a season and destroyed his church and reputation but finally renounced it. Also Ted Fitch believed this false doctrine.

With all due respect MOW, I don't believed you have looked at UR, your statements here are very early sound bites of those that are only rationalizing the surface arguments.

Annihilation is much more merciful and would be the human way out, as if God is saying, "I can't fix what what I created, I have been defeated by Satan and by the all powerful will of man, so I"ll just kill them all."

Malachi 3:3, declares that He is the refiners fire and the launderers soap.

Such statements are hearsay, that do not include the whole context that each of these men found themselves in, and do not add one thing to the discussion. These words have no bearing whatsoever on UR.

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for.

Romans 9:17-23

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So mans will is not triumphing over the glorious will of YAH. Those who are fitted for destruction unto destruction they shall go.

To the contrary, the doctrine of endless torment has turned multitudes from God, because by it very nature blasphemes the character of our Heavenly Father. Let's start with the simplicity of (1 Cor. 13.8) LOVE NEVER FAILS,

"The teaching of endless torment, negatively effects the preaching of the gospel, "eternal" hell...

Maligns God's character before the world.
Contradicts His unending and unfailing love for all people.
Makes our worship stem from fear instead of true affection.
Denies His unlimited power to accomplish His will.
Makes man's will greater than God's will.
Infinitely minimizes Jesus' triumph over Satan.
Denies Jesus fully accomplished His mission on earth.
Negates the most glorious promises in the Bible.
Ignores the testimony of the early church.
Rob us of peace and joy.
AFFECTS WHAT WE BECOME; LIKE FATHER--LIKE SON.
Hinders world evangelism.

Hell is a horrifying thought. Millions have been terrorized by it. Some have even killed their children to spare them such a fate. If we would truly grasp the horror of it, we would go insane. Our every waking moment would have to be spent snatching whoever we can out of the fire or nothing but constant guilt would torment us. Can you imagine the horror of suffering "forever"? What is a billion years? It is but a second in eternity. Who could possibly imagine such horror? What if you or one of your loved ones should go there? Does this thought affect how you feel about God?

This theme has gripped my heart as it afflicts millions of people and dishonors God before the world. After years of wrestling with this topic, studying the Bible, and reading the works of others, I have found that hell is a judgment given from the disciplinary hand of a loving Father. Though severe, it serves a good and remedial purpose."

One of our greatest presidents agreed. In Abraham Lincoln the Christian, William Johnson, stated:

Abraham Lincoln did not nor could not believe in the endless punishment of anyone of the human race. He understood punishment for sin to be a Bible doctrine; that the punishment was parental in its object, aim and design, and intended for the good of the offender; hence it must cease when justice is satisfied. All that was lost by the transgression of Adam was made good by the atonement.

Quoted for "Hope Beyond Hell" by Gerry Beauchemin

You do err, not knowing the scripture, and interpreting scripture to make God to be tyrannical monster, rather than a loving Heavenly Father. Your interpretions, "maligns God's character before the world." I Cor. 13.8 "Love never fails,"

These scriptures are hyperbolic descriptions of God's purposes for men on the earth and in NO way is describing man's ultimate end.

Wow! Are you saying God created some just so He could have people to destroy?

That is the bottom line in some traditional teaching. It is quite an extraordinary, considering what Jesus said He came to do.

(Luke 19.10;Mt.18.11; 1Jn. 3.8) "The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."

Quoting from Is. 61:2a:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord..."(Luke 4.18)

Of course when folks honestly look at the counter arguments and the scriptures it's really hard to come to the UR conclusion :-)

Hello, Praxeas I was just wondering when you would join in.:heeheehee

In other words, go outside the bible and use philosophical arguments to defend a position you haven't even said you believed in yet. Thus the logical fallacy train gets a rollin

lol..I was thinking of the first verses you posted concerning the tree. Interesting verse...it's actually the leaves that bring healing and not the fruit. MFs take is interesting...but does this verse apply to current nations of people living at this time?

Also consider

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

The TOL is only for those that washed their robes (symbolic of being saved by the blood of Jesus)

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Out side the city
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Consider this last warning
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

I don't know if Bro. Blume believes in eternal torment. And my questions are reasonable questions for someone considering this subject. Care to take on some of the questions, instead of just trying to direct the argument into your comfort zone? Obfuscate the issue would you?

Perhaps "the nations" refers to those that from every nation that fear Him.....
Note there are parameters for being accepted with him......

Let's throw this in the mix, Rev.22.15 mentions the dogs and sorcerers, etc outside the city. Then in verse 17, "...the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who thirst come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely." So apparently, after all is said and done thru all the Revelation, the Spirit is still saying "Come!"

This doesn't seem to fit the eternally lost timeline, this is after the Great White Throne judgment, after the coming of the New Jerusalem. Why are those dogs not in the pit or the lake?

These are some of the things in scripture that caused me to study and has led to my current position.

I did take some on and remembe we've had this discussion indepth. However in the course of having a dialogue I have to point out the logical inconsistancies in your arguments. If what you believe is the truth then you don't need to embelish it or help it along. Do you want to win an argument for the sake of winning or do you want truth to be revealed?

This verse is not future tense. It's present tense. The Spirit and the Bride is saying "come" right now!

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price

Oh yeah?

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4

Paul realized men do not believe its fair of God to do whatever he wills.

18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How does he answer the "fairness" charge?

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By telling them it would not be fair to THE POTTER if he could not do whatever he chose with the clay that he molded!

Then he very specifically decrees that God made the wicked to demonstrate his power in their destruction:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

A humanistic worldview will indeed see this as God being in the wrong. But he counsels with no one concerning his purposes. He needs not the permission of the clay nor its approval.

He makes known the riches of his glory to the VESSELS OF MERCY WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

If you read into Chapter 22, verse 15, there are sinners outside the gate, so sinners are still around. The Rev. 22:17 the Spirit and the bride are still calling all who thirst, all who desire, "Come!" Salvation is still in operation. This is after the Great White judgment, and after the New Jerusalem has appeared. This call shows the "Bride" participating in this call to salvation.

I don't believe it is a free entry, those that come at this time will be refined by the refiners fire, (Mal.3.3)

Oh, so you have now joined Bro. Blume?:heeheehee

I totally reject the Calvinistic view of God's severity. Again these verses are temporal, and in no way project the ultimate end of God's creation. God most certainly directs the affairs of man for His purpose, and His ultimate purpose is to redeem His creation.

Good night all. I will have to pick it up later, sleep and wife call.

Wow!!!!! I did not know that ANYONE on this forum believed in universal reconciliation!!

Does crakjak go to carlton Pearson's church ???


that's the junk he believes in The muslins are saved, the hindus saved, Buddah's all good, the homosexuals are going to heaven no problem AND even the Devil will be saved ! ! ! :heeheehee:heeheehee:heeheehee:killinme

Very well put.

CJ, what's your eschatological view?

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com