Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years Later
 

So, I was searching around some of my old threads, and found the thread I started when I decided to leave the UPC.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ead.php?t=4851

And I thought it would be interesting to examine if anyone's dire predictions came to pass. Or if those who thought that I'd find my way, were correct. Not to mention if my good intentions stayed strong, or petered out.


Then:
06/12/07
Name: Michlow
Age: 32

Relationship Status: Married to Matthew, for 8.5 years. He had Asperger's Syndrome which made him near impossible to be an equal partner in our relationship. (He refused to work, and spent all day playing video games for example). I was desperately unhappy, but believed that God hated divorce. I prayed for the Rapture, to be put out of misery A LOT!

Children: None. We were unable (I believed thankfully after a time) to have children.

Spirituality: I had experienced some bad, unhealthy, church situations where Authority was misused. I was very angry at God, and absolutely refused to allow someone else (i.e. a Pastor) to control my spirituality.

Some quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow I have openly admitted that I have spent the last 3 years not even liking God, because he seemed a cruel and capricious deity, who demanded absolute perfection. And one cannot be in right relationship with a God they do not like or trust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow Right now, these are the only things that I know to be Truth: God Is. Jesus is God. Receving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost changed me inside. I can make no claims about the Bible, or salvation doctorine, or the church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michlow The good news is that I am stubborn, and I am determined to know God!

But I was sill pretty much a 3 stepper, stating that even if I didn't know if it was the only way, I still pretty much thought it was the BEST way

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Some of Peoples' Hopes and Fears for my future:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 151932) It was you Paul had in mind when writing Hebrews 10:25 I just hope you do not fulfil Heb.10:26-29 When one fails to assemble they open themselves up to fatal error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2H (Post 151952) Mich, I must view your departure with question. How can you say withdrawal to nothing is the answer to improper doctrines or wrongful interpretation? Find a church - a group of beleivers - and when you do there will likely be other issues you can again withdraw over. ALL organizations have error ALL. Because you are removing yourself to a "me and Jesus" mentality I must question your motives. Meanwhile, I will pray that God will place a hunger for Him in your heart. In Jesus, H2H

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherri (Post 151980) Mich, Mich, Mich......I do love you for your transparency!! You are a breath of fresh air on here many times when I need a good laugh. I think you're one of the most sincere people that I know and that you have a heart after God, like David. Just keep chasing Him (God, not David). He will lead and guide you into all truth. You have to have passion; that's what it's all about. God is so big and so awesome, we cannot begin to understand Him. But He is ultimately always good and He is faithful; He will keep you. The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Read the Word and let it sink into your Spirit; He will speak to you through it. I love you. If you ever need to talk, PM me. Meanwhile, I'll be praying!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy (Post 152113) I can assure you, there is far more danger in thinking the voice of the flesh (self, the carnal nature we are born with) is the voice of God than there is in thinking the voice of some 'controlling pastor', as you put it, is God's voice. Big revelation, friend: God has already revealed Himself in His Word, and He chooses to feed and lead His people through pastors after His own heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 152257) Michlow, I appreciate your thread. My concern is a practical one from 48 years of observation. Far too often those that become untethered from their foundations blow away in the wind and never seem to land on solid ground again. As you know I share some of the same concerns you do for the UPC and old time Oneness Pentecost. However I have always kept hold of what I consider my spiritual foundation and that is confidence in God, the work of Calvary, etc, etc. On a more practical level what I have kept hold of in my foundation is what I consider committment and faithfulness to the house and word of God. Too many times I see folks who either get or seek a "better understanding" of things just end up unplugged from any assembly of believers. They are either all alone (a Coopite) or manage to find a handful of other malcontents who share concerns or views with them. All I am saying is beware. Make an honest re-evaluation often to see if you are out in the ether living by the words of that famous song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on" or if you are willing to find a pastor and assembly you can submit yourself to for the important ministry to you spoken of in the Epistles.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Interesting! Staying tuned... :)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

A few more Posts from the Old Thread (I figured I'd save people from paging through 62 pages of tangents...etc.)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Just curious,

Why did you use a ying/yang for your symbol?

Just wondering.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I guess I always felt that it kind of went with the Name Dichotomy Girl. As the Yin/Yang kind of represents two mutually exclusive things. (The symbol holds no personal spiritual or philosophical meaning for me)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

NOW
(5 Years and 344 days later)
05/22/13

Name: Dichotomy Girl
Age: 38
Relationship Status: Happily married to Josh
Children: A daughter, Avery, who will be 2 on 6/12. The best surprise of my life!
Spirituality: It's Complicated!

A little bit of a timeline:

6/12/2007: Posted that I left the UPC
8/15/2008: Matthew and I separated
10/31/2008: Divorce was Final
4/18/2010: First Date with Josh, an atheist.
9/2010: Josh and I started "shacking up"
11/1/2010: Found out that after over 12 years of infertility I was (accidentally)8 weeks pregnant.
11/11/2010: Quickie marriage at the court house so that I could take advantage of Josh's awesome medical insurance.
6/12/2011: Avery was born, perfect in every way.
5/22/2012: Enjoying life and my family.

But there is so much between the lines of that timeline! I guess it's harder than I thought to quickly summarize everything that's happened to you in 6 years. Though I bet some preachers could do it pretty fast: "She started questioning standards, then came the doctrine, then she left church completely. It wasn't too much later that she got divorced, dated and then shacked up with an Atheist, and got pregnant out of wedlock!" (i'm not sure at this point if then marrying the Atheist would be considered a bigger sin!).

So on the one hand, I can say that the dire predictions were probably a bit understated, I think they figured that I'd just go charismatic, maybe get a few piercings and a tattoo.

I suppose most would think my life something to repent of, or to feel shame for. And though I have many regrets in life, my husband and daughter are not one of them. I have learned that marriage (though it can still be hard at times) can be a wonderful, awesome thing, and how much a difference it makes when you love each other!

I think I've learned true humility and sacrifice. Oh, I sacrificed tons of stuff in my first marriage, I was quite the martyr, but I didn't do it for my ex-husband who I resented and despised, I did it out of a sense of duty, or because I felt it was an expectation of God. And my daughter, she was the answer to a prayer I hadn't even enough faith to pray for. I'd often lamented the fact that I would never have children, but I'd given up that dream many years before.

I guess I'll break the spiritual part into another post. :)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Before I left the UPC, I had a lot of anger and hurt over the things that I had experienced. I wasn't really made at any individual people, I just viewed them as products of their environment. But I was really very angry at God. I had come to view him as a cruel and capricious bully that was enjoyed stepping on us for sport. I got to the point where I believed that either God was this horrible person that I'd come to believe, or I had no earthly idea who He actually was. But I didn't really know how to fix it.

I'm not sure I ever shared this story, but I spent several years hemming and hawing trying wanting to leave but afraid, thinking I should, then becoming convinced that I shouldn't, but all the time yearning for something that was missing.

My last time in a UPC service (before leaving) was actually not even at my home church. I was back in Wisconsin visiting, and attended a church where I had several friends. The Late Jack Yonts was preaching, and his sermons was on the story in the Gospels about the sick man that they lower through the roof to get to Jesus? And I admit, I tuned out of the service as Bro. Yonts was talking about bringing your friends to church, and I felt like God spoke to me, and told me, that I was like that paralyzed man, that I had been trying so hard, desperately to get to Him, but that my way was being blocked by the "Scribes and Pharisees". And I felt like He told me that if I wanted to get to Him, that I was going to have to take an unorthodox route.

I had a lot of fear at first, stepping out into the unknown, and feeling very untethered. In the beginning I prayed this prayer a lot.
But I was still so angry, that it was really hard to ever move forward. I would try to read the bible, or pray, or talk to other Christians, and I found it nearly impossible to consider any spiritual matters without them going through the filter of the past.

Ultimately, I found that when it came to God/Spiritual matters I was like this huge wound, and the more I poked at it, the less it healed. So for a few years, 2009 and into the early part of 2012, I avoided anything that had to do with Christianity. I didn't open a Bible, I didn't listen to Christian music, I didn't attend a church ,or listen to any kind of preaching, or pray (in anything but an extremely generic "Oh God don't let me be late" kind of way).

I'm not saying I recommend that method for those who have had very negative experiences, in fact it might be a horrible idea, and I'm not even saying it's what God had in mind or wanted for me. But regardless, it worked. Sometime in 2012, I realized that I could hear scriptures, or music, and no long have any of those PTSD-esque trigger responses. That I no longer see through that angry and hurt filter. I'm not bitter, I'm not angry. I'm actually kind of neutral.

So when it comes to Apostolic Doctrine (or Christian Doctrine for that matter), so I still believe any of it?

Oneness: I do kind of think this one is semantics. However, because my only experience in Christianity has been in the UPC, and because I had some very negative feelings towards God at one time, for me it all comes down to Jesus. Jesus being God is pretty much the only thing that I never questioned, where my faith never wavered. When Paul sounds like a Sexist, and the God of the OT is being all genocidal, I just focus on the Character of Jesus. (I really like the verse about Him being the image of the Invisible God)

Baptism: I think it's a symbol, currently I have no feelings mode or formula.

Spirit Baptism & Tongues: This is a big one that people question, that yes, there were definitely times that I've questioned it. I think I posted a thread last year after reading some article about how scientists believe that it is learned behavior, and how that really upset me. But for me, it ultimately comes down to faith, which I believe is a choice. I know that something inside me changed when I got the Holy Ghost. I did speak in tongues. I still speak in tongues...even during the healing years. But I don't claim to understand it. (I confess, I don't love the fact that my husband thinks I'm a little bit crazy.)

The Bible: This part I think will be the most upsetting for a lot of people here. This is one of the areas that I struggled with the most. I had a lot of problems thinking of the Bible as the AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD, and the way that most conservative Christians use it as a rule book or instruction manual. I couldn't accept it as that, but I couldn't dismiss it either. So I was kind of at an impasse for many years. Currently, I view it as a collection of writings that show mankind's search for a relationship with God. As such I do not think it inerrant, and I do find it somewhat mutable. (i.e. we don't practice slavery even though the Bible doesn't condemn the practice)

I guess, that I believe that the purpose of the Bible is to encourage us to seek Jesus, to lead us into relationship with Him through the infilling of His Spirit. I think that is what God intended to be our teacher, Guide, and Comforter.

Repentance, Salvation, Hell, Etc.: My thoughts on these are works in progress, as are many other things, because for me it has become about more How to live with the Questions, then it is to needing to know the answers. But I believe that there will be a reckoning and some kind of judgment, but I don't believe that it will involve conscious eternal torment. Which means I don't really focus on repentance and salvation, but more on relationship.

And Standards aren't even on my radar anymore. ;)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

What is funny is that my experience is nearly, if not completely, 180 degrees different from yours in that I left the UPC with NO anger toward God Himself. Where my anger did lie, was with the people and more importantly the system. To this day, I despise the pastor-centric form of church where the "man of gawd!" is the ring leader and all his minions play the part of mind numb robots. That doesn't mean I despise pastors as long as they realize where their authority ends and if/when they don't know where it ends, I've also unfortunately realized that most people are too ignorant to understand where it ends either and will blindly follow him, especially once the horror stories start flowing from the pulpit about someone who questioned the "man of gawd!" and was promptly struck down in some manner.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Well, notice that even though I have no bitterness or anger towards people, I am not attending a church (well, at all), but I don't think that I would thrive in that kind of environment either. I fully confess, I do not like being told what to do! (But I am open minded, so if you discuss it rationally with me, I may be persuaded).

In fact, my husband and I joke. I used to consider myself a Libertarian when I was more conservative, because I don't like the government telling me what to do. Now I say that I'm a Narcissistic Anarchist, because I don't want anyone telling me what to do, (But I want to tell everyone else what to do), at which point he tells me...that actually makes me a "Fascist" and I say "You have your labels...I have mine...." :D

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

You bring up some good points. A few things actually: Very few people like being told "what to do", those few who DO enjoy it all tend to be a bit creepy. Think of the young Norman Bates from Bates Hotel where he says "Mother, I like it when you tell me what to do". Now I do believe that the same percentage of those who don't like being "bosses around" appreciate getting good direction in life. The difference is the person telling someone what to do is a person who is on a authoritarian kick while the person giving good direction is being a wise councilor. THAT is how a pastor should be, and I have met many who are indeed like that. I've also met more than my share of the first kind.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Dichotomy Girl,

Have you ever considered or attended a house church?

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I considered it frequently back in the day, but never found one in my area.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Frantically jumps up and down waving... That is MEEEE!

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I am not a bible literalist... and I know it freaks other Christians out. I also don't buy into an eternal tormenting hell... another thing that makes me an oddball... But I have to live with myself and I just can't lie lie to conform to the popular opinion... So it is what it is. Glad to meet someone else that is willing to say they that they just don't buy it. Thanks.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Mich, you and I have traveled very similar paths in this....for me, it has been best to just leave it all. We haven't attended church regularly for a couple of years and, contrary to what some here would say, it has been a great decision for us. I felt like God had to just kick me to get me to finally not go back. It's a story in itself, but is very contrary to what we are normally taught.

I still get PTSD sometimes but have actually been listening to some old Christian music on CD the last few weeks and actually been enjoying it. But I don't see myself stepping foot into a church anytime soon.

I see some of this quite similarly. Mostly, I find the questions not pressing and not very important. I find God to still be central in my life but I don't really care about much of this stuff anymore. It's an interesting exercise to think about it but I don't think about it too much.

It's good to see you around again! I've always enjoyed your writing.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I can get really touchy when people (especially people in authority) start power tripping on me. It gets really hard for me to contain myself....

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

My only trigger is 'preaching'... the pulpit pounding, screaming, sweating, panting kind especially... I can not, absolutely CAN NOT abide it. About 10 seconds is enough to make me physically nauseous and while I have never pushed it to see I think a solid minute would see me vomit. I never expose myself to that kind of thing any more. I avoid churches with any chance of that preaching style, I don't listen to radio or TV preaching, never, ever, ever.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Any type of power-tripping that people do against me is a major trigger for me. Since we had preachers, pastors, presbyters, a district superintendent and "saints" all doing things like falsely accusing, stalking, terrorizing through the justice system and smashing our personal stuff......I can get pretty shook up when I sense anyone doing any type of power-tripping. I get very nervous and yet look like a stone on the outside. People can never figure it out. I try very hard not to do this but am not there yet. ;) Every day, though, I improve. :)

I certainly understand not being able to stand that kind of preaching.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I would far rather listen to someone teach using scriptures, and proper exegesis, rather than to listen to someone scream for an hour, and when they're done, you don't have a clue what they just said...

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I was kind of accidentally watching a youtube video of someone I used to know who has since become a UPC preacher, of the screaming variety. I was more amazed then anything else, as it was hard for me to see in that screaming the person I used to know.

But I am happy to say that It didn't really evoke any kind of emotional response in me. (I think I can safely say that 98% of my triggers are gone). I do find it strange though, and sometimes I end up shaking my end, it's like I have a hard time remembering that once upon a time I felt that way, or would have liked that, or later been hurt by it.

About 6 months ago, I purposely tested myself, by pulling out my binder of Christian music that had been buried in my closet for years, and intentionally listened to a CD by the Pastor's wife from my 1st church (where the bulk of the bad stuff happened), and was amazed to realize that it was just some lady singing.

I think that letting myself heal from all that, has really put me in a position where I feel free to continue my journey. But this time, I am free from fear and I don't have any preconceived notions. (actually if I'm being honest, I probably do have some preconceived notions about some of the stuff I learned in the past)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I should add though, that at this place in my journey, I have also come to see that there were some good things that came out of everything that happened.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Something that hit me last night:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...5&postcount=74

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

It thrills me when a trigger that I used to have no longer works on me. I am trying to be gentle on myself because the trauma we went through was so extreme that I have to remember that healing will take a long time. I think some of it I will never get over. Some people, when they get into a car accident heal completely over time. And some, have some sort of scars and issues forever. I do believe some issues I will have forever, but that becomes the new normal and after dealing with the anger of it, must be accepted for what it is because to be angry about it forever is not productive and keeps a person from enjoying today. So, sometimes after a hard day, I still jump when a leave blows across the car in front of me (literally), but those days are less often.

Sometimes I get things out too, to listen to. I really enjoyed the Christian music. It was a blast from the past and I worshiped God. I was really angry with God for a long time and sometimes I can get angry with Him but mostly I am not. I am not really angry with anybody anymore. Those who did the things they did just felt they were doing the right thing (except the guy who stole money from the church and blamed us for it but he's one person). I don't really have many feelings about him at all either because he was a shadow in the whole situation. But the triggers I have have more of a hold on me than I want them to. For example, this week, my boss told me I had to call someone rather than email them for no reason other than she wanted to tell me what to do right after I told her that I am a better writer than talker. I get a long with my boss for the most part, but she can be controlling and micro-managing. This has irritated me ever since it happened and I am having a hard time letting it go. Anytime someone power trips over me, I want to tell them off. But, of course, that would not be okay in this situation. Nicely explaining that I prefer to email will not work because she WANTED to tell me what to do simply because she could. Some people are like that. They are not going to change and sometimes we just have to deal with it. But I think it bothers me more than it bothers other people sometimes.

It is awesome to be free from fear. I don't have fear for my spiritual journey. I don't fear hell. I am not worried about not going to church. I even accept that for some people, the UPC is probably where they need to be and I don't have any resentment towards them. I even kind of envy that they actually belong somewhere because I don't belong to anything much anymore. That part has been very difficult. And not being able to use my musical talents and other talents has been incredibly difficult as well. But, it has been worth it to walk away. Those who say we left because we don't love God or can't hold to standards.....that sounds so ridiculous to me it is just laughable. I don't spend much energy on that at all.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Along the same lines, I was looking at some irises I transplanted. The ones that were not transplanted look nicer than the other ones that I did. At least this year. The transplanted ones will just have to look ratty. They have no choice. The benefit to their being transplanted is that they were being over-taken by another plant. So, they won't be over-taken. But the ones who are not transplanted sit there and feel superior because they look better. ;)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

:)

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I've heard it all now...church causes PTSD. I believe that as much as I believe Jodi Arias is a domestic violence survivor. *smh

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

My church experience definitely caused PTSD in my life. It is a simple statement of fact. Scoff if you want to.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

It did for me. That is if you count getting cold swears while standing during song service and hearing certain songs to be PTSD.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

No one is saying that church causes PTSD as a blanket fact. But there are those who have had experiences in unhealthy and abusive churches that can lead to it.

There was a blogger I used to follow years ago, who was repeatedly raped through out her pre-teen and teen years by her Father. Who was extremely religious, and would recite the lord's prayer during the act.

There was another girl, who was repeatedly subjected to "exorcisms", where she was held down, and basically physically abused, because she questioned the teachings of the church and her parents.

There are people who have been manipulated and controlled, slandered and emotionally abused in unhealthy church situations. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE NORM. But neither can you deny that it happens. Churches are made up of people, and people sometimes do bad and evil things.

The things that happened to me, were frankly minor compared to the examples I listed. But they nevertheless had a real and lasting impact on my life for many many years.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I have a really hard time responding to posts like the one accusing people of being melodramatic for having PTSD from a church situation. It makes me feel belittled, dismissed, misunderstood and, again, falsely accused. It is actually a trigger.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Fact is, the gods of human making are very false god(s). The true God is a work in your life, and it is His desire that you continue to grow and know Him as He really is. He is not at all disturbed by your pursuit of truth and understanding. Unfortunately, many believers only know the false god, invented by carnal and very human men.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I didn't accuse you or anyone else of anything, falsely or otherwise; I simply made a statement.

I'll concede to DG's point of there being rare occurrences where there is serious physical and emotional abuse.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Okay then. And PTSD does sometimes happen at those times.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

You're still alive?! :heeheehee

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Very rarely, in cases of severe physical or emotional abuse. Not simply due to a screaming preacher on a power trip. If that was the case, 80% of people who've ever been in church would be on a couch describing triggers and their version of PTSD.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

I believe Steve Epley was using fatal in the spiritual sense, not the physical sense.

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Way to ruin my joke. :foottap :lol

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Actually the funniest thing I saw in my thread, is me making reference to something else Bro. Epley had warned me about in another thread. Upon hearing that I was giving up the assembling of myself with others, he felt the need to warn me that most serial killers were loners! :D

So not only am I sill alive, I haven't killed anyone either! :happydance

Re: Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years L
 

Alright. That may be true. For me, I went through severe trauma. I won't speak for others.