What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

All too frequently in the past I've talked about things that I disliked about my time in the UPC, but for once I want to talk about something on the other side of the spectrum.

I was taught that we were to pray for the leaders and authorities in our lives. This applied to the President, to our bosses, teachers, parents, police officers, Pastors. To help them to make wise decisions and to be good leaders. I was taught that even if we disagree with them, we should respect the position (and the ensuing burden) they held.

No, this did not mean that you were required to remain under their authority if there were great differences of opinions. You could change schools or churches, become an emancipated minor, or use your voting rights to elect different officials. However, as long as you remained under their authority, that the right thing to do was be respectful and pray.

To be honest, I don't see this played out in modern Christendom. Maybe I just had a Pastor who really had a conviction in this area, or maybe things have changed dramatically in the past 15 years. And Political discussions these days seem to be filled with hate and vitriol. This is a bipartisan multicultural criticism. But an area, I think, where the body, should strive to improve.

1 Peter 2:13-17
New Living Translation (NLT)

13 For the Lord’s sake, respect all human authority—whether the king as head of state, 14 or the officials he has appointed. For the king has sent them to punish those who do wrong and to honor those who do right.

15 It is God’s will that your honorable lives should silence those ignorant people who make foolish accusations against you. 16 For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil. 17 Respect everyone, and love your Christian brothers and sisters.[a] Fear God, and respect the king.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

:thumbsup

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I like the idea of respect but only when it is deserved. I feel that when a person becomes a public figure they open themselves up to public scrutiny. There have always been bad leaders but in other times and places they were mostly those who could not be spoken against under threat of death. I don't really ever want to see that happen here.

The plain truth is that in this information age, we can know more about the people in power than we ever have before. We are also more free to have opinions than ever before. So it seems that in this time and place the question becomes how should that information be used. Where does the right to personal privacy end and the right to public knowledge begin?

In example, it is rumored that Pres. John Kennedy had affairs, however, during his time those things were brushed aside or covered up. Bill Clinton also had an affair while in office... So was it our right as the voiting public to know that? Was lying about something personal, that could have destroyed his marriage and family an impeachable offense? I know I did not feel personally enlightened by knowing the details of his tryst nor did it influence how I saw him as a president. Still it did cause a huge loss of respect for him with many other people I know.

So then do we say that those who no longer respect someone because of their conduct should keep it to themselves for the sake respect of their position? Is that not how the RCC managed to hide molesters of children for decades?

Very complicated... hummm?

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Just a little bit.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Sock it to me.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

In the military you are taught to respect the office or position that is held.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Oh, don't mistake me. I'm not in any way against full disclosure! And I believe that if you don't think the person in an elected office is the best (or the least of the evils!) for the job, then by all means, use your voting power (and any other skills) to help elect a better candidate.

And if the person in power is misusing their office to commit crimes, then it is our duty to see them tried and punished for their crimes.

And of course I mentioned, it is always a feasible option to remove yourself to a place where they are no longer in authority to you. Such as changing schools, churches, becoming an emancipated minor, or moving to another town, state, or country.

If you choose not to do that, (and to be honest, I am speaking mainly of the constant diatribe's against the President and the top levels of the government), then I do believe that some measure of respect should be offered to that person solely based on their position.

I cringe when I hear conservative Christians refer to the President as "that idiot in the White House". Regardless of his politics, he is the leader of our nation. I'm not saying they should do a happy dance if the are vehemently opposed to his policies, but there is a way to respectfully disagree. And I really think we are missing the mark here.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I respect the office of the President, which is why I have and will continue to point out the issues with "that idiot in the White House." (Your words, not mine.) In my posts, I attack the policies and public figure; I try to refrain from attacking the person. I've said he's arrogant, ignorant and incredibly incompetent -- based on his actions and policies as President. And I do respect Obama on this: he's done well to promote the role of fathers in the home through his fatherhood initiative.

It's interesting that conservative Christians are being singled out here. I don't see anything about the liberals needing to show respect to Bush, Romney, Republicans or conservatives. No mention of the constant bashing of conservatives by msnbc watchers.

Do you consider yourself conservative, liberal or independent? Did you vote for the President? The reason I ask is because the one's who typically say conservative Christians need to respect Obama are either one's who voted for Obama, or who aren't themselves conservatives.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

True. We used to admit that a leader was a dirt bag... but the position was to be respected at all costs. It's the only way from preventing command from falling into subjective and opinionated chaos.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

What should be done to a leader of one of the greatest nations that has ever graced the free world should he commit egregious adultery and even conspire to commit murder???

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

In this question about David and the nation of Israel...it wasn't a Democracy. While David was confronted by Nathan and repented, there were no laws or other choices for the Israelite people. :)

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Politically I consider myself to be moderate, religiously I consider myself to liberal. But I have voted for both Republicans and Democratic presidential candidates.

And I will tell, as I am married to a man who is very much bleeding-heart liberal, that I DO get just as frustrated when it's done by the left, or by him, say on a facebook post, say quite frequently, LOL

I meant it when I said that this crossed party lines (both political and religious). I referred to Conservative Christians with the assumption that because they hold to Biblical Guidelines, they would clearly see this. Which is why I am confused that many don't.

For example, your post above, it honestly doesn't sound very respectful, and I don't really see Jesus' love in it. I think that you could express your opinions against his policies in a more respectful manner.

For example...would you use the same words against a poster here at AFF? To your friend? Brother? Parent?

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

My knowledge of the Bible is admittedly a bit rusty these days, but didn't David continue to show respect King Saul, even though he knew that God had anointed him to be the new King?

And what about all those foreign rulers when Israel was in exile? I seem to recall that short of being commanded to do something that violated the law, they respected and obeyed the rulers of the land.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Ah... but there are always choices with regards to God. Did God remove David from power and raise up another more righteous? (He could have.) No. God humbled him publically, allowed a temporal judgment to befall David, and then restored David to righteous relationship and service.

The sad truth is... men fall. Nobody is perfect. Abusing a child or doing something highly illegal that leads to the unlawful destruction of life or liberty are good reasons to impeach on criminal charges. However, with Clinton it was a trick question with relation to an affair. Dirty tactic to take when a man is under oath and the question really doesn't pertain to the issue at hand. Are we the kind of Christian community that seeks to heal and restore our fallen leaders? Or are we the kind of Christian community that gets caught up in the political rancor and chooses to seek and destroy our fallen leader(s)?

Here's an interesting article. We had a President who had an Apostolic Pastor serving him as a dear friend. Is it any wonder that Hell set out to destroy this President???

Here's an old news article I remember reading...

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/12/us...o-reflect.html

If I remember correctly, the song that was sang for the President in private after it all got blown wide open was, "I Am Redeemed".

We heal our wounded. And we carry our dead. A President should be no exception. We seek to heal and restore... not destroy. That's Satan's work and he needs no help from us.

Sadly... we had a President who had been filled with the Holy Ghost and was deep life long friends with an Apostolic pastor and we reviled him. And we rallied to elect another President who had no affiliation with the Apostolic movement who was under the direct influence of the NWO. Hmmmm... What gives?

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I like how you skirted around the question of whether you voted for the President. "I've voted for both Republicans and Democratic presidential candidates." :lol

I have an issue with posts like this, which are typically skewed against conservative Christians (not liberal ones), and typically posted by someone who voted for the current President. And generally the one's wishing for civility and respect for the current President were the same one's engaging in less than civil discourse against George W. Bush, other Republicans or conservatives in general.

How was my previous post disrespectful, or was it just one you didn't like because I didn't vote and don't support the President? Was it because I used the words "Ignorant," "Arrogant," or "Incompetent?" Directed towards the man, yes it's disrespectful; however, I use them towards his conduct in office. To me there is a difference between the office and the man.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Aretha has left the building... :)

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

What was a worse lie?

Lying about an affair with an intern?

Or lying about "yellow cake" to justify a war that would end in the deaths of untold tens of thousands (or more)?

Hmmm...

I think I can forgive the affair more easily.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

OK... it's a political thread.. I'm pretty much a-political... I don't just love Mr. Obama but I also did not just love Mr. Bush... I think the last pres I thought was just all that and a bag of chips was J. Carter and most people thought he was an idiot and that by extension, so was I.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Or sealing the records... yes.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I didn't mean to skirt. I voted for Clinton Twice, Voted for Bush the first time, didn't get a chance to vote the 2nd election, but would have voted for Bush a 2nd time and voted for Obama twice. With that said, I am not madly in love with the guy. And I actually stand up for Bush whenever my husband gets going, because I don't think he was the presidential version of the anti-christ.

And I am not in anyway against political conservatives. For many many years I considered myself a libertarian, but I have become more moderate in the last 5 or 6 years.

Mostly, I find that political parties don't fit me, in the same way that religious denominations don't. Because I'm like my name, I can't be pigeon-holed, and I deny logic, LOL

Honestly, this was not intended to be an attack on political conservatives. It was more a rallying cry to other Christians, that we not let our political ideological differences cause us to act less than Christ-like.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

That wasn't what was at issue with the question there, but yes David stayed in the background and waited for God to fulfill His promise.

God didn't just humble David, there was a terrible judgement on David because of his sin. His baby died. His daughter was raped by Amnon, his son. Amnon was then murdered by David's other son, Absalom. David was not the same after.

It's true that Apostolics/Pentecostals could have been more forgiving and shown more compassion to a President who, to this day has fond memories of his time with the Pentecostals.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

:thumbsup

Amen... Democrat or Republican... we need to minister to, pray for, and serve our leaders in the Spirit of Christ.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I would agree. I am not as in love with W as most of my family and friends. As much as I hate saying it, a lot of what W did in office set the precedent for what Obama has done. Including sealing records. I'm in no way saying it's W's fault for what Obama is doing, because Obama is a big boy, he gave a good speech about Hope and Change; unfortunately we're left hoping for a change in 2016.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

How many Psalms were written after David's fall, exposure, and repentance? While yes, I agree, terrible judgment FROM GOD fell on David's family... God didn't remove David. Even Bathsheba saved the nation twice after becoming queen through using God given wisdom.

Let's face it... we turned on President Clinton like a pack of wild dogs. :(

Clinton lied... even Bush lied. However, with Bush's lie... bodies are still coming home in flag draped coffins because we're in so deep with regards to Iraq... bringing our boys home would destablize the region. I'd much have rather discovered Bush had an affair. It's a far more human sin... and it doesn't cost the lives of any innocent parties. It's far easier to pray for the President and encourage family counseling than to count bodies.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I feel much the same way.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Here's an interesting book that reflects a Christian ethic that leans more towards Democrats than Republicans...

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Rode-Don...+Rode+a+Donkey

I found it very interesting because I am well aquainted with the Conservative ideals that cause most Christians to vote Republican.

Politically, I agree more with libertarians. Both the Democratic and the Republican parties trouble me.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

.... this caused me to get out after 4 years... hard to respect people with half my IQ....

hee hee...

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Find out what it means to me...

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I have found the same thing out here my friend. :slaphappy

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

We definitely teach our kids to respect their authorities, including politicians that are in authority over us. However, disagreeing with authority figures isn't disrespectful, especially in our society where freedom of speech is such an important privilege. As long as disagreements are made respectfully, then they aren't disrespectful.

On the flip side, I do think that resorting to personal insults, attacks, racist jokes, etc., is demeaning to the person doing the attacking, and certainly unchristian.

In my opinion, you can disagree--strongly--and still be respectful. Bottom line, it isn't disrespectful for anyone to question the President on his policies or actions, mainly because in our system he's supposed to actually be accountable TO the people.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Please do not talk bad about our dear great leader Kim Jong-un.

He is
Wise Leader
Brilliant Leader
Respected Leader
Father of the People
Shining Star
Guiding Sun Ray
The Great Sun of Life
Great Sun of The Nation
Beloved Father
Supreme Leader of the Nation
His Excellency

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

They obeyed so they would not be slaughtered. They had been subjugated.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Does he poop? His dad didn't.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

True story. :kickcan

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

This actually wasn't supposed to be political, LOL

This was exactly my point. It's not about whether you agree or disagree, it's a heart issue. Is calling someone an arrogant, ignorant, incompetent idiot expressing love?

This isn't about Obama or Bush, it's not about Republicans or democrats of independents, it's not about conservative or liberal or moderate. It's about loving our neighbor, and gentleness and kindness, and putting love above being right.

I guess somewhere along the way I became an idealist...

How was this not to be political. You, as a mostly Democratic voter singled out conservatives for their criticism of the President you voted for. Nothing mentioned towards liberals on here, just the conservatives.

Again, I'm not calling Obama arrogant, ignorant and incompetent... it's his policies and Presidency that is. There is a difference. I've said it twice, it's his Presidency and policy, please don't misquote me.

Sorry, but I feel this is very biased because of that. And you can try to add liberals now, but it's after the fact and seems less sincere.

I guess somewhere along the way I got tired of libs, MSNBC, the President and others making Republicans out to be jerks.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Society as a whole is simply less tactful than ever before. The simple lesson that just because you CAN say something doesn't mean you SHOULD say it seems to have been lost on most people.

I'm with you that now that Mr. Obama is our president it would be nice to see level of respect for his office and even for him personally. Of course I believe that presidents are mostly figureheads who do little on their own anyway... so getting angry at the person makes no sense to me.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

I believe we are being manipulated.

Manipulated by political parties battling for total power and control of the economy. It's in their best interest to divide the American people in such heated division that they can solidify a base and work to convert "non-believers" in an almost religious fashion.

In addition, the news media companies, authors, political think tanks, special interest groups etc. financially benefit from such fervor.

They have made what should be issues of personal liberty into social debates. And we've fallen for it.

When I look around, all too often I see Christians who are conformed into the image and likeness of Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. Sometimes I don't see Jesus at all. Political conservatism has become the new "political correctness" within the church. The political powers on the right would love to cut SCHIP and other programs. Would Jesus cut SCHIP to give more money to oil companies... or would Jesus admonish the nation (including oil companies) to remember its responibility towards less fortunate children??? Yet those same political conservatives would give BILLIONS in tax breaks to corporations that don't invest very much in America at all.

Re: What Ever Happened to Respect?
 

Again, I referred to conservative Christians only because that's how the majority that I am conversing with here refer to themselves. So, I apologize for that, as it applies to all Christians everywhere, regardless of their affiliation or place on the religious spectrum.

But the only "Conservative" I referred was in regards to Christianity. It in no way referred to conservative politics, which can often be an entirely different manner.

I don't know how much we've interacted in the past, so you might not know much about me. I was on these forums regularly from 2003-2008, but have only posted sporadically since then. In my time here I have been guilty of many shortcomings, but one thing I have been known for, is my tendency to be completely transparent (probably to the point of TMI) about my life and struggles.

I have no political agenda here, and I was not trying to accuse any particular people of anything. It was simply intended to be a "Hey, here is an area I really think we should strive to do better in".

Beyond that, you can only take my word for now, that It bothers me just as much when it is a person that I didn't vote for, or disagree with, or is of a different religion, or culture, or orientation. One of my favorite statements is that what we say and do says more about us, then the people we are reacting too. So I guess this is something that is near to my heart.