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Esaias 05-29-2013 11:36 AM
The church in history
 
Who says the church, the REAL church, must be visible throughout history from Pentecost till now?

The Reformed Protestant doctrine is not apostolic succession, but apostolic continuity - ie, the real church is whoever believes and practices the Bible, whenever they may be living.

The Catholic/Orthodox churches claim apostolic succession - ie, one must point to a continuously visible and continuously existing 'church' to identify the 'real' church.

Not saying either is correct, just pointing out to seekerman that his argument against OPs being representative of the true church is outside the pale of Reformed, Protestant, and Evangelical orthodoxy, and would be recognizable as valid only by a catholic/Eastern Orthodox person.

Just saying.

Aquila 05-29-2013 11:39 AM
Re: The church in history
 
1 Attachment(s)
I'm a Restorationist. I believe in what might be best described in this chart:

seekerman 05-29-2013 11:41 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255807)
Who says the church, the REAL church, must be visible throughout history from Pentecost till now?

The Reformed Protestant doctrine is not apostolic succession, but apostolic continuity - ie, the real church is whoever believes and practices the Bible, whenever they may be living.

The Catholic/Orthodox churches claim apostolic succession - ie, one must point to a continuously visible and continuously existing 'church' to identify the 'real' church.

Not saying either is correct, just pointing out to seekerman that his argument against OPs being representative of the true church is outside the pale of Reformed, Protestant, and Evangelical orthodoxy, and would be recognizable as valid only by a catholic/Eastern Orthodox person.

Just saying.
My issue is that oneness pentecostals cannot find the Church of Jesus Christ during the 1800s, a relatively recent century. Yet, after 1913, they suddenly can find the Church of Jesus Christ. Why?

Esaias 05-29-2013 11:43 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255812)
My issue is that oneness pentecostals cannot find the Church of Jesus Christ during the 1800s, a relatively recent century. Yet, after 1913, they suddenly can find the Church of Jesus Christ. Why?
And my issue is 'why is that a problem'? lol

Aquila 05-29-2013 11:45 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Down through the ages there have always been various believers that experienced visions, unintelligible speach, dreams, angelic visitations, healings, and the casting out of devils... all described as being various forms of what was called "spiritual ecstasy". Many of the "Christian mystics" had experiences and revelatory understandings similar to modern day Pentecost. But they functioned within the church of their day.

seekerman 05-29-2013 11:49 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255814)
And my issue is 'why is that a problem'? lol
Oh, I realize that the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ after centuries of absence isn't a problem for many oneness pentecostals. The dominance of satan over the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't bother them at all it seems.

But.....why the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ in 1913? What was going on before then? Was the Church of Jesus Christ dead, buried, in hiding, afraid of the enemy....what?

1913 is a pivotal year in the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ it seems. Satan was completely victorious over the Church until that year?

Esaias 05-29-2013 11:55 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255820)
Oh, I realize that the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ after centuries of absence isn't a problem for many oneness pentecostals. The dominance of satan over the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't bother them at all it seems.

But.....why the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ in 1913? What was going on before then? Was the Church of Jesus Christ dead, buried, in hiding, afraid of the enemy....what?

1913 is a pivotal year in the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ it seems. Satan was completely victorious over the Church until that year?
How about YOU TELL US where the church was down through the ages?

seekerman 05-29-2013 11:58 AM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255825)
How about YOU TELL US where the church was down through the ages?
LOL. I'm trying to find out why oneness pentecostals can't find the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1800s but no problem after 1913. Do you have any thoughts on why 1913 is such a pivotal year for the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ?

Esaias 05-29-2013 12:01 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255831)
LOL. I'm trying to find out why oneness pentecostals can't find the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1800s but no problem after 1913. Do you have any thoughts on why 1913 is such a pivotal year for the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ?
I have all sorts of thoughts on church history.

Pliny 05-29-2013 12:01 PM
Re: The church in history
 
I could care less about 1913. I do care about the doctrine that embodies the church. That doctrine can be found throughout the centuries in spite of a very directed attack against it. You may have heard of the Inquisition for example. The RCC had for many centuries had control of kingdoms. They not only outlawed any organized "church" outside of themselves but they actively sought to keep people in the dark. They even outlawed the Bible in an effort to stop the church. Not only did they burn any contrary writing but they murdered those who held those beliefs. Thus, to assume absence of evidence is evidence of absence is patently wrong especially in this case.

Here is a book that has documented some of this if you truly want to know.
http://pentecostalpublishing.com/node/3538

seekerman 05-29-2013 12:04 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255832)
I have all sorts of thoughts on church history.
Ain't what I asked you. :)

Do you have any thoughts on why 1913 is such a pivotal year for the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ?

Esaias 05-29-2013 12:28 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255836)
Ain't what I asked you. :)

Do you have any thoughts on why 1913 is such a pivotal year for the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ?
Do you have any thoughts on why there was no visible, viable, powerful and soul winning church of Jesus Christ teaching that Jesus is not God (besides the watchtower group, perhaps)?

seekerman 05-29-2013 12:35 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255862)
Do you have any thoughts on why there was no visible, viable, powerful and soul winning church of Jesus Christ teaching that Jesus is not God (besides the watchtower group, perhaps)?
At least the watchtower sect preceeded the oneness pentecostal sect by several decades. They have the same elitist, 'we have the truth and you don't' attitude as the oneness pentecostal sect though. Well, maybe their elitism is worse than oneness pentecostalism.

Julian 05-29-2013 02:29 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255812)
My issue is that oneness pentecostals cannot find the Church of Jesus Christ during the 1800s, a relatively recent century. Yet, after 1913, they suddenly can find the Church of Jesus Christ. Why?
Do you believe in speaking in tounges as evidence of the Holy Spirit?

larrylyates 05-29-2013 02:34 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1255820)
Oh, I realize that the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ after centuries of absence isn't a problem for many oneness pentecostals. The dominance of satan over the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't bother them at all it seems.

But.....why the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ in 1913? What was going on before then? Was the Church of Jesus Christ dead, buried, in hiding, afraid of the enemy....what?

1913 is a pivotal year in the sudden appearance of the Church of Jesus Christ it seems. Satan was completely victorious over the Church until that year?
Why was 1522 suddenly a in Church History? Where was the "Real Church of Jesus Christ" prior to that? How is that pivotal moment any different from 1913? (Or 1901 for that matter). Both came through the revelation of the Spirit. Both changed history. How is it different?

By the way, in case you haven't noticed; satan remains firmly in control of that portion of the so-called pre-1522 "Church." It's called the RCC!

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:00 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1255961)
Do you believe in speaking in tounges as evidence of the Holy Spirit?
Fruit of the Spirit is not tongues.

houston 05-29-2013 05:02 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1255998)
Fruit of the Spirit is not tongues.
Evidence isn't fruit. Fruit is evidence.

Quote me.

Praxeas 05-29-2013 05:06 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1255807)
Who says the church, the REAL church, must be visible throughout history from Pentecost till now?

The Reformed Protestant doctrine is not apostolic succession, but apostolic continuity - ie, the real church is whoever believes and practices the Bible, whenever they may be living.

The Catholic/Orthodox churches claim apostolic succession - ie, one must point to a continuously visible and continuously existing 'church' to identify the 'real' church.

Not saying either is correct, just pointing out to seekerman that his argument against OPs being representative of the true church is outside the pale of Reformed, Protestant, and Evangelical orthodoxy, and would be recognizable as valid only by a catholic/Eastern Orthodox person.

Just saying.
my thoughts too. Protestants have legs to stand on before Luther....

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:08 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by houston (Post 1256000)
Evidence isn't fruit. Fruit is evidence.

Quote me.
:thumbsup

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:09 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1256002)
my thoughts too. Protestants have legs to stand on before Luther....
Where does Luther fit into all of this????

Praxeas 05-29-2013 05:18 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256004)
Where does Luther fit into all of this????
The beginning of the protestant reformation....

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:25 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1256006)
The beginning of the protestant reformation....
That's what I thought. I never understood how a Christ lover could be a Jew hater. Christ God in the flesh was a Jew.

Praxeas 05-29-2013 05:31 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256007)
That's what I thought. I never understood how a Christ lover could be a Jew hater. Christ God in the flesh was a Jew.
maybe so but the fact is that was the genesis of what is now the evangelical movement...

the irony is many evangelics make it an issue there is no visible oneness group in every year, century etc etc yet not only can they not do the same before recent history relatively speaking but they often appeal to history to support doctrines like the trinity despite chants of sola scriptura...

Esaias 05-29-2013 05:43 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256007)
That's what I thought. I never understood how a Christ lover could be a Jew hater. Christ God in the flesh was a Jew.
I don't think you understand Luther. Luther came to oppose Judaism later in life. He wasn't a 'Jew hater' in the sense most people think. People think Luther's 'anti-Jewishness' was on the same level or of the same kind as say Hitler's. Not even close. Hitler hated Jews* because he believed they were a race with a genetic predisposition to subversion and communism. Luther hated Jews because he believed their religion was vile, antiChristian, and contrary to good morals.



*Note: There is some disagreement about hitler's views on Jews, due to the fact that there were, in fact, Jews who supported the NSDAP program and who were members of the Nazi Party (Hess, for example, as well as some others.) There is also the persistent rumour that Hitler may have been partially Jewish himself.

Julian 05-29-2013 05:53 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1255998)
Fruit of the Spirit is not tongues.
Yeah, guess I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about getting the Holy Ghost like in Acts 2 and wasn't refering to Galatians 5:22-23.

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:53 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1256011)
maybe so but the fact is that was the genesis of what is now the evangelical movement...

the irony is many evangelics make it an issue there is no visible oneness group in every year, century etc etc yet not only can they not do the same before recent history relatively speaking but they often appeal to history to support doctrines like the trinity despite chants of sola scriptura...
I sometimes wonder what the Church would look like today if not for Luther.

I guess because we were Oneness at onetime and today we attend Trinitarian churhes I don't pay attention to the Godhead arguments. I really say that by and large we are saying the same thing.

I have a friend of mine who was a UPC pastor at onetime who helped me over a lunch one day I still carried Godhead baggage. He told me that we care more about the 1 into 3 or the 3 into 1. I kind of settled it for me.

Honestly in the AG many of the message that I have heard sounded very Oneness to me.

History has showed us that were people that held onto what looks to be Oneness in the Godhead view. Your stage name being one.

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 05:56 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1256013)
Yeah, guess I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about getting the Holy Ghost like in Acts 2:38 and wasn't refering to Galatians 5:22-23.
Julian I understand you. Show me your tongues and I will show you my fruit.

Julian 05-29-2013 06:01 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256015)
Julian I understand you. Show me your tongues and I will show you my fruit.
How can I show you what cannot be seen?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth , and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canstnot tell whence it cometh , and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 06:06 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1256016)
How can I show you what cannot be seen?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth , and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canstnot tell whence it cometh , and whither it goeth : so is every one that is born of the Spirit

Are tongues the only evidence of being filled with the Spirit???

I for the most part agree with the initial evidence doctrine.

Julian 05-29-2013 06:20 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256017)
Are tongues the only evidence of being filled with the Spirit???

I for the most part agree with the initial evidence doctrine.
When you are filled with the Spirit you will have the fruits of the Spirit.

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 06:24 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1256018)
When you are filled with the Spirit you will have the fruits of the Spirit.
Why is it that I know many Baptists with the Fruit of the Spirit and many OP and Trini Pentecostals that are as mean as a snake.

Julian 05-29-2013 06:34 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1256019)
Why is it that I know many Baptists with the Fruit of the Spirit and many OP and Trini Pentecostals that are as mean as a snake.
Do not know what to tell you for I don't know them. Only Matthew 7:15 comes to mind.

Sorry about your bad encounters with an A.P. member or members. :blush

navygoat1998 05-29-2013 06:43 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 1256022)
Do not know what to tell you for I don't know them. Only Matthew 7:15 comes to mind.

Sorry about your bad encounters with an A.P. member or members. :blush
Julian it is all relative. To somebody else I may not display fruit of the Spirit.

My wife and I were Apostolic Pentecostal but today we are Pentecostal.

Julian 05-29-2013 06:45 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Matthew 7:15 was a bad example for I'm not saying that the message of Apostolic Pentecostal's is false, I was just trying to point out that in the church there will be some that are not Spirit lead like they want you to believe.

Julian 05-29-2013 06:48 PM
Re: The church in history
 
Okay, you caught my gist. Whew good. :highfive


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