What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

This question has been on my mind this morning. So many Christians seem to focus on the Heaven/Hell, which seemingly implies that that was the sole mission of Jesus, to decide the location of our afterlife.

Do you believe that's what God intended? That used to be my focus back in my former days, I viewed everything through the lens of "Will this send me to hell? Will this help get me to heaven?" And all that led to was a relationship built on fear.

I can't help but think that's not supposed to be what it's about. I keep think of when Jesus quoted Isaiah (Luke 4),

" The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

Now granted, I tend to lean towards Universal Reconciliation (or at the least I believe that there will be a judgement and correction, but the purpose will be rehabilitation, and the punishment won't be eternal) so I tend to not focus too strongly on the heaven/hell - plan of salvation - make sure you did all the proper steps - parts of religion. Still I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

Why do you think Jesus came? Was it to save us? Save us from what?

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

To cause family trouble, so he said.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Which is one undeniably true prediction, by the way.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

He came to save us from the wrath of God that we justly deserve because of our crimes against Him.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I miss SheltieDad (Brad) at times like these because he was always so good at pointing out the fallacy of this argument.

How is being born on this earth, in a human body, and being subject to it's laws and limitations a crime? And why should we be tortured for all humanity for something we can't control?

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

well in the ot, god came to liberate israel from egyptian slavery and to establish a society of justice and holiness. they did not have power over sin. with the sacrifice of christ and the outpouring of the spirit, we have the means to overcome sin and establish the community of justice and holiness envisioned in the ot, this time with the law of christ and the power of the spirit. eternal life is just a byproduct of belonging to and practicing the principles of this spiritual kingdom in human society. read up on liberation theology for this perspective.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Tooth decay. And sometimes yellowing of the toenails.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.

The Bible says all have sinned; we were born in iniquity, conceived in sin. The reason Jesus came was to fulfill OT prophecy and to be the once and for all payment for sin. Without his death, burial and resurrection, we would be without hope of eternal life.

Contrary to your universal reconciliation belief, the Bible clearly states the wages of sin is death (which is permanent); it does not say the wages of sin is a stint in rehab or some temporary judgement.

There is a literal Heaven. There is a literal Hell. People can make up beliefs and doctrines to make themselves feel better, but it doesn't change the truth.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I think you mean "In order to believe this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. . . . Because of that, you don't believe what was stated above."

You're welcome. ;)

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I'm pretty good at it, too. Just tired of it. :lol

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Whether or not Jesus came to save us from Hell To Heaven has absolutely nothing to do with false relationships built on fear and legalism

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I think the focus on the former tends to encourage the other.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

No, I meant it the way it was written. Thanks anyway. :thumbsup

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

In my little mind, I have always thought that through the Cross, Christ came to reconcile mankind back to God.

However it is our choice how we respond to Christ and the Crucifixion.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Oh. I see. You don't think Dichotomy Girl understands it. OK. Weird, but OK.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Using the Bible, then, that you believe to be the Word of God. Perhaps you can answer the following question:

Jesus promised to send the following after He left to guide us into truth:

a.) A Pastor
b.) A collection of writings, put together in book form by several Christian Councils
c.) The Holy Spirit

As I have by your own rules, been baptized in the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues), I am therefore indwelt by said Spirit, and therefore have the necessary tools to be led to Truth.

Not believing that the Bible is inerrant or 100% authoritative does not mean that I do not find it a valuable tool. I have stated many times that I believe that it's purpose is to lead one to relationship with Jesus. And a relationship with Jesus should lead one to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which among other things is the way that God communicates with us.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at repentance when your sins are forgiven. :happydance

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I disagree. I think the focus on WORKS to achieve a goal, performance based relationships, is what does it.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I am finding it very strange that people seem to think I'm incapable of understanding any spiritual matter at all, if my thoughts about doctrine or theology differ from theirs.

My questions is, how do they witness to someone of a different faith, or no faith, who doesn't hold the Bible to their level of preeminence? Or to someone from a different denomination, who is only ever used to a verse being used in one particular way?

I am in no way trying to coax anyone else into sharing my points of view. I never in any way tried to remove the Bible from this discussion. I actually was interested in various biblical interpretations, as their seem to be more scripture references for Jesus ministering to the sick, poor, etc., than anything else.

I expected perhaps many mentions of the Apostles, or prophecies from the OT, but I didn't expect for people to say that the discussion was pointless because of my views on the Bible.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I was covering my bases :D (not necessarily stating what I believed)

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I don't disagree. I guess for me the two were connected.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

:lol

These aren't my rules, DG. Just because someone was baptized in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues years ago doesn't mean they're OSAS. There are those who have completed the so-called 3 step plan of salvation who have, as 2 Thess 2 says, "fallen away."

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I think my problem is that I talk to much. I added way too many details, and different people focus on particular details, and I ended up defending my Biblical views or theology, rather than discussing the topic I was actually interested in discussing.

I was thinking about this topic this morning, It actually made me what to go back and read the Gospels, to meditate, to focus on this feeling that I was having. That, at times past, I (I am through saying "Christianity, or "Apostolics" or "Conservatives" because it ALWAYS gets me in trouble") tended to focus on the heaven/hell aspect of the equation, as if that were the only reason Jesus came. So I was interested in exploring some other reasons that might exist.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

What if I told you that I spoke in tongues today? :haloplug

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.

Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.

It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.

The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.

I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

But discussion is pointless, if you are unable to help her understand it. But sure, if your advice is first for her to "believe the Bible is the Word of God", and then she will understand (not that I agree that that is the correct word, as opposed to "agree" ;)), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps?

Interesting, isn't it, how there is still so much disagreement and arguing even among people who do accept the Bible as the Word of God, and do have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth? (Way more so than among those who don't, I'd say! :lol)

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I believe that Jesus came to reconcile us to God, allowing us to renew our spiritual union with our creator. His Spirit indwelling our spirit. Through Christ, we become spiritually one spirit with God.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

D Girl,

Jesus came to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that we can be 'born again. Why do we need to be 'born again? Why do we need to be 'redeemed? Redeemed from who? Or what?

Ever since Adam, every baby born, was born into sin that Satan placed on this earth, therefore Jesus came to 'REDEEM' us from being a child of Satan. Every baby born, is a child of Satan, therefore they don't have to do anything to go the the Lake of Fire.

John 8:44 (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus wasn't just singling out the Jews. We are all children of the Devil until born again. And when 'born again, then we have God's 'divine nature' inside of us.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Not believing this is why I don't hate God.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

If this is true.......why weren't the believers in Samaria indwelt until AFTER the apostles laid their hands on them?

Acts 8:12-17 (NLT) But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself believed and was baptized. He began following Philip wherever he went, and he was amazed by the signs and great miracles Philip performed.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Right! Bishop. Also the 120 Believers at Pentcost. Of course they couldn;t receive until the Holy Ghost was sent down, however, if it came automatically they didn't need the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

And the Ephesians were Believers, but did not receive the Holy Ghost automatically.

There are millions of BELIEVERS in the world today that need to be baptized right, which is in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Ghost. But if wishy-washy Pentecostals, pat them on the back, and tell them, "it does not matter," hw will they ever be saved?

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

I agree with you Timmy, but I really appreciate Renee answering the question clearly and forthrightly :)

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

So I was thinking about this discussion this morning as I was getting ready for work, and I kept thinking of the story of Jesus healing the blind man, and the Blind man getting questioned by the Pharisees, and how they were trying to prove that Jesus was a sinner, because he didn't follow their rules. And they would question the man, and he would give his opinion, and they would continue to investigate because this miracle didn't fit into their paradigm. And finally the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

Just because I do not always take the Bible literally (i.e. I do not approach it as a rule book or instruction manual), does not mean that I think it contains spiritual truths.

As for the creation story I will borrow this thought from Rob Bell...which is more important that it happened or that it Happens? Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. I don't think that the practice started with Him. But for the record I do believe that the Universe was created by God. And I do believe in the Word in the John 1 kind of way...in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and that Word was crucified and resurrected and now dwells inside me. :nod

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

It's pretty simple really.

Regardless of how one feels or thinks about the issue, nonetheless:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus means Jehovah-Saviour.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Jesus Christ came to save us from the death sentence of original sin.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Why did we need saving from sins, if all that happens at the end is a stint in rehab and a slap on the fanny?

:hmmm

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

The Bibles does use terms should as death,perishing and such for the unregenerate.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

You know my husband and I had a spirited debate about this last night. I find it refreshing to go home and discuss spiritual matters with an Atheist after a day of discussion with Apostolics.

Anyway, in the course of our discussion, this topic came up. Firstly, I never necessarily said we didn't need saving, nor that I didn't believe that Jesus was Savior. Do I lean towards universal reconciliation? Yes. I believed that Jesus' death paid the price for everyone. Period. But I do believe there will be a judgment for our actions in this life, our sins against others, Etc. And I hardly think it will constitute a "slap on the fanny".

Have you ever had the veil lifted from your eyes, and in a moment saw clearly the truth about something you had done/said/believed and how much it had hurt or damaged another person? Maybe it was something that you couldn't fix or undo, and so you were filled with terrible regret? (Like the moment when Nathan the prophet said to David "You are that Man!") Now imagine for a moment seeing your entire life laid bare like that, seeing the consequences and results of every action, word and self-deception.

The regret and despair would be overwhelming in its scope, to the point where I don't think we could even imagine it. And realizing that your life was done, there was no changing, or fixing, or undoing, or making right. I tremble to think of it.

So please believe me when I say that I believe there is infinite value in being a Christian (even if I don't believe you HAVE to be). Firstly, Jesus is just awesome. No matter how many issues I have ever had with ANY aspect of religion, I have never wavered in that regard. Secondly, my life is infinitely superior Post-Jesus (I was blind but now I see.). It has enhanced my relationships, my psychological well-being, my integrity, my work-ethic, and He has been my shelter in the storm.

This is what I tell my husband, to whom scripture is meaningless, and doctrine laughable, and the idea of a divine being preposterous: That Jesus' love changed me.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21

Luke 1:
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Re: What did Jesus Come to Save us From?
 

Hopefully I'm misinterpreting this...because what I get is you're comparing yourself to Jesus because you're not following the "rules," whatever they may be. Hopefully I'm wrong, and this isn't what you meant.


I think the sentence was meant to say "Just because I do not always take the Bible literally does not mean that I don't think it contains spiritual truths," correct?


Ah, Rob Bell. Universalist extraordinaire. Love wins! :lol


So you take the view that any Biblical scripture about hell and eternal punishment are just allegories and parables not to be taken literally? There will be no universal reconciliation. Sorry, I know it doesn't tickle your ears, but it's the truth. Were there to be universal reconciliation, Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were done in vain.

If this includes people who have experienced salvation, it conflicts with scripture. Once someone repents, their past sins are washed away, never to be remembered. And those who haven't experienced salvation, the judgement is more than just seeing their lifetime sins played out before them.

So there's value in being a Christian....buuuuuuut it's not really necessary, since love wins and everyone will be reconciled anyway. Being a Christian is like being Mormon in my area - it's for the perks. Good business connections, elevated status in the community, endorsements, kickbacks, etc.

Again, if it doesn't matter, love wins, and we're universally reconciled...why did God make such a fuss about the Word becoming flesh, dwelling among us; the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost? I guess you'd just have to write off the Bible as a nice collection of parables and stories in order to believe this way.