Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib
 

Soooo.....

Can someone help me out on some scripture here....

1. I was told by an Apo that; if a child, that is not of the age of accountability dies, and their parents were not saved/born-again that this child goes to hell!?!?!

2. Now if the same whom said this doesn't believe in abortion, as they believe life starts at conception, then by their definition they would have to believe an aborted fetus from sinful parents would also go to hell. <<I'm asking this at breakfast this morning<<


If ANYONE could share some scripture on #1 I would be most thankful!

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Does any of that sound like love.

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No, it doesn't sound like love... but then Truth comes hard & sometimes Truth doesn't sound like love....

Scriptural Truth is what I am after on this. I find this so disturbing that I can only see logic in that it is a test to see if I will just go along with whatever they say, or if I will seek out my own Truth.

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No it does NOT! his comes from several ideas, none of which are in scripture.
my wife was actually told this by her childhood Pastor, when later in life she lost a child. He wouldn't even perform the funeral. I got a Pastor friend of mine to do it. This was 24 years ago. She lived 22 of those years believing that she'd sent her child to hell because of her then "backslidden" state.

I almost went across the desk at that Pastor.

Perhaps the best known passage actually comes from the OT and the life of King David. He was at the time, fairy "backslidden himself. Adultery. Murder. Living in sin. God told him that as a result the child would be lost to them. Most of you know the story. But watch this: David went ino fasting, prayer and mourning with sackcloth and ashes, the whole shebang. Yet AFTER the child's death what happened?

2 Samuel 12:22-24 (King James Version)
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.

Even after all of this David was known as a man after God's own heart. He knew instinctively that he would see this child again. A child conceived in sin to backslidden parents. Just saying!

Anyone see it differently? Can you give any scripture for it. It's a horrid idea.

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I believe that they take that idea from 1 Corinthians 7:14:

14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. (i.e. that at least one parent has to be "believing" or the children are unclean)

In my 10 years as an Apostolic, I only heard one lay person (and no one in the ministry) espouse this belief, so I do not think it is a common stance among Apostolics.

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I hate to say this, I honestly do... but then again the Truth is ugly sometimes.... This has come from a UPCI (mentor/liaison) from a Church we have come to love will all our heart. Regardless this is disturbing and doesn't separate our love for the Church, not that I believe this, but what we ask is what is the status of the heart of the two that do believe this?

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It seems harsh, but were children ever spared God's judgement in the scriptures? Sodom and Gamorah? Kids among the wiped out, even if they were "innocent". The Flood? Children wiped out despite "innocence". Death Angel in Exodus and other times it passed through the camp? Children wiped out despite their "innocence".

I'd like to see a good scriptural position, rather than emotional position, on why children are exempt from judgment if they die before this "age of accountability" (which seems completely made up btw). I cannot fathom the idea of children from birth dying and finding themselves in judgment, but God didn't spare them in the examples set in the OT. If things changed due to the NT and Grace I would like to see a clear scriptural source for it.

Otherwise it just leaves even more of a weight upon parents to not live a sinful life. Their kids' will pay the price not only in this life, but in the next as well.

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This teaching is a hard teaching that MAY actually have some biblical basis. IMO it is not a popular doctrine and is most likely NOT promoted often. Its basis comes from types and shadows......
Example 1.
In Genesis, God told Noah to build an ark because he was going to destroy the world. The ark was the ONLY way of escaping the judgment of God. When the flood destroyed the earth all people who were not on the ark, men, women, boys, girls, and even infants were destroyed. It could be said that had their parents gotten on the ark the children would have been saved.

If the earth was a type of the world......and
If the ark was a type of the church.....and
If the flood was a type of the judgment of God (Hell)
Then children would be lost because their parents did not get on the ark

Example 2.
Also in Genesis we find the story of Sodom & Gomorrah. The city being wicked, God told Lot and his family to leave because he was going to destroy the city. Only Lot and his two daughters escaped (his wife left but looked back) ALL others were burned in the fiery destruction including children......had their parents been willing to leave.....the children would have been spared with their parents.

If Sodom & Gomorrah is a type of the world......and
If leaving S&G is a type of leaving the world and entering the church (safety).....and
If the fire and brimstone that rained down on S&G is a type of the judgment (hell) on the wicked
Then children and infants were lost because their parents refused to leave S&G.

There are other examples that some use to back up this teaching, such as the fact that God had his people Israel kill whole nations of people including (with specific commandment to) killing all the infants and children.

While I do not endorse this teaching, I do see where it could have some merit. We live in a world where people don't want to accept responsibility for anything they do, and being given the privilege and responsibility of a child is one of the most important gifts we can be given. If people really understood that their actions DO affect others we would be more careful with the examples we set.

Also, assuming this teaching were true......this sin would be IMO no greater than any other sin that one has committed and as such would be forgiven when a person came to Christ. So just like those who deal with the guilt of an abortion, or any other sin the guilt ends with salvation.

Again, before anybody decides to hang me or shoot me.....I am just giving you the basis for why some teach this doctrine.

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We were posting at the same time:thumbsup

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Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This verse indicates that the children are NOT held responsible for the sins of the parents, but rather for their own. There is also an implied support for an "age of accountability."

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Maybe this will help you feel better about children (or anyone) in hell:

"Can the believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish their bliss."

-- Jonathan Edwards

Well, at least you can look forward to feeling happy about it, after you die. :winkgrin

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Maybe its the doctrine that says people will burn in Hell for TRILLIONS UPON TRILLIONS of years that is problematic? They teach they will never cease to exist. Trillions upon trillions of years from now the punishment will just really be getting started.

Yet people recoil angrily most of the time when its pointed out to them that the wages of sin IS DEATH. Romans 6:23

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Whoa, Harsh!

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Well, you have to admit, it's a nifty way to make heaven a happy place.

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Luk_12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I've always understood this verse to mean that those who understand and know more will have more to account for, which would mean that children under the age of understanding would not have to account for what they never had a chance to know.

And considering how Jesus loved and tenderly reached out to the small children, I believe that children have a special place in the heart of the Lord, and we must rest in the faith that they are in the care of a merciful and loving God.

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Isn't that kind of just proof texting? The context of that verse explains what it was referring to. I'm pretty sure Luke wasn't writing it to refer to children dying and whether they go to hell or not due to some age of accountability.

To be clear, I want there to be said age and for children to get the free pass to heaven. I'd just like to see scriptural proof rather than emotional/philosophical arguments.

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Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


Above you can see the entire text of the verses I am speaking of. The Lord is speaking in parable of those who are stewards of the gospel.

vs. 43: Blessed is the servant whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


So we understand that if we continue doing the faithful work of a servant of the gospel, we will be blessed when the Lord returns to find us so doing.

vs. 45-46: But and if that servant say in his heart, my Lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens and to eat and drink, and to be drunken, the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him and at an hour when he is not aware and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

We understand from this verse that a servant can lose his standing in the kingdom, and be given a portion with the unbelievers, or hell, because of unbelief.

vs. 47-48 states that the servant who knew not his Lord's will, and prepared not himself shall be beaten with many stripes, but he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

So, this passage is definitely speaking of those who have heard the gospel, and what they have done with it. If they acted with unbelief, they will be held accountable for their actions.

If, they knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes, they shall be "beaten with few stripes" and then the comment, unto whom much is given, much shall be required.

So, from this passage we understand that those who have known the gospel and the commands of the Lord will have more to answer for, than those who have not.

It is my humble opinion that from this we could understand that children, who have not had a chance to completely understand and know the gospel would not have to answer for what they did not have a chance to know.

How is this proof-texting?

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Jesus said to allow little children to come unto him, 'for of such is the Kingdom of God'.

If infants and children were ALREADY on the way to the lake of fire, then it could not be said 'of such is the Kingdom of Heaven', nor would Jesus have said EXCEPT ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall NOT enter the kingdom of God.'

Jesus used little children as an archetype of the child of God, not the child of hell.

NOW...

There may be some merit to the idea that children of the lost are outside the scope of the Covenant. Jesus was after all referring to Israelite children and not heathen children.

But that gets into another area that involves prophecy and the nature of God's covenant.

Too often we read the bible with our individualist glasses on, and fail to see God deals with FAMILIES and NATIONS as much as, if not more than, mere individuals.

'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, AND THY HOUSEHOLD.'

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My first pastor would preached this.

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If the 'else were your children unclean' verse means the children of a Christian are 'saved', then it also means the unbelieving spouse is saved...

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If someone is not of a age to realize they need justification,how can they be judged as wicked ?

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:woot

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That can get to be all kinds of fun theologically then. Maybe we are more ONE with our spouse than we even think. So much "One" in fact that if one is saved, then the other is simply by being joined to us in marriage. We are one flesh.

Not that I would preach this, but it does give some real weight to the idea that you are genuinely joined and one with a person. Hence why God hate sdivorce so much and why divorce literally and truly rips two people to pieces. It isn't a clean break.

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It has been quite interesting to read the responses to questions concerning the fate of children, albeit none seem to have even come close to addressing that which Christ Jesus instructed His chosen disciples about the matter.

Yes, that's correct, He did tell them of the fate of children, doing so (IMHO, that is) within the context of the very first statement He made to them in the now famous "Sermon on the Mount" - "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:3, KJV).

Please allow me to explain the manner in which I interpret our Lord's statement, showing how He was referring to the eternal fate of children.

Because God has chosen to shroud the precepts of the Bible in language that only those who have been initiated as members of His eternal kingdom are granted the privilege of comprehending, then it's important to recognize that at their essence practically each of its statement are "esoteric."

For this reason we discover that the word "spirit" (with the letter 's' appearing in the lower case), is often used in the language of the Bible to denote the "breath of life."

With the recognition that this is that which our Lord was specifically referring to within the context of the aforementioned statement, permit me to paraphrase His words with this thought in mind so that we might better appreciate that which He was asserting:

"Blessed are those whose possession of the breath of life was limited, thus preventing them from ever maturing from infancy to an age whereby they might understand doctrine. Because of the limitations which fate imposed upon such, then they will automatically be granted eternal life in the kingdom of heaven."

The words of Isaiah 28:9 explicitly tenders, as well as provides the answers to two crucial questions which also assists in our understanding of this matter - "Whom shall he (i.e., God) teach knowledge? And whom shall he (i.e., God) make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts."

Thus it would seem quite fitting that, in keeping with His "righteousness" (i.e., equality of justice/judgment), God would be prohibited from imposing eternal destruction upon those who never advanced in age to a point whereby they would be capable of understanding doctrine.

Just my thoughts about the matter, and I'm sure there is even more than could be written about this matter.

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Interesting take; although Luke's account just says "Blessed are the poor." Luke also writes, "to the poor the gospel is preached."

While the paraphrase is interesting and something I've never heard, I don't believe Jesus was referring to children in that verse.

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The only doctrine that makes sense is Universal Reconciliation, that each will have a process of their salvation being complete. That God will not fail in His purpose of creation and redemption, that not one lost sheep shall be lost forever. Jonathan Edward's concept of judgment was very corrupt.

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Although this has been an interesting thread, I must say the above shows perfect scripture without needing to take it in any matter other than what's written.

I value all input, and am searching scriptures, from what my young-uneducated mind understands..... this would be the best fit...

Anyone disagree with this? (<scripturally<)

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There is no age of accountability in the Bible. The curse of sin is inherited from Adam--sin is imputed to all humanity. Romans would have been a good place for Paul to mention the holy baby exception, if only there was one.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's not what a person DOES, it's what a person IS--sinner--a legal standing. Age is irrelevant. Baby rattle snakes still have poisonous venom, even though they are born without rattle.

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The age of accountability in the Old Testament was 20. This is stated numerous times in the book of Numbers. They were not to be counted till they were 20 years old.

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And... the soul that sinneth... it shall die.

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Then shouldn't that read "countability"? :D

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2 Sam 12:22-23 (NIV)

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.'

23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

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There are more babies (born and unborn) going to be with the LORD each year than the totality of all living Oneness Pentecostals on Earth today.

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Yep. From a discussion of a kid's visit to heaven (in the book "Heaven is for Real"):

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As a corollary, I have heard of the possibility that we may reincarnate, although of course Scripture tells us not to teach this...possibly akin to like, speaking with the dead? (another scenario that Scripture acknowledges as possible, while forbidding it for a Christian, iow).

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If Christ was asking the Father to forgive the very people that crucified and beat him as he hung on the cross, do you think he's going to torment children and infants to infinity? REALLY?

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So now we are allowed to use our own moral intuition and life's experiences for deciding theological issues? When did that happen? To torture regular "accountable" 13 year-olds with hot heat for billions of years, then resetting the clock for more billions of years is essentially no different. Funny how babies are supposed to be excluded. I wonder if that's because they are so cute and so lovable, (unlike the rest of humanity?)

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At "Seek your own salvation..?"

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:highfive

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What if this is a test?

What if this is a test to see if we will blindly follow what they say, or if we will search out what we know isn't right and scripturally stand up against them?

This is the only logic I can see, for the bodies that make up this Church have more love than we've ever witnessed (and we've witnessed a lot).