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The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence
I’ve been studying on the Gift of Tongue as Paul mentions in 1 Cor 12. In verses 29-30, Paul asks questions in which he expects the answer to be “no”:
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret ? If all are not expected to speak in tongues, how do we validate the “Tongues Initial evidence” doctrine? In chapter 14, Paul continues about tongues… he references speaking to God (in tongues) for private prayer, and speaking to others in tongues (as long as there is an interpreter). In my opinion, Paul does not differentiate between speaking to God in tongues and speaking to others in tongues. When I read about tongues in Acts 2 and subsequent chapters where people speak in tongues when they receive the Holy Ghost, it seems to reflect the Gift of Tongues… which Paul says not everyone will speak in Tongues… |
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Obviously there is a contradiction...
A contradiction in the understanding not the bible. Read the passage of John 3 and pay attention to what Jesus says concerning the wind. There is a sound that comes with the wind - so is everyone that is born of the Spirit. On the day of Pentecost that sound was revealed as tongues. Thus, there are two types/purposes of tongues. 1) They build up the individual. 2) When the "gift of tongues" is used they are intended to build up the church. How did the Jews know the gentiles received the Holy Ghost (Acts 10)? Because they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. In Acts 8 we are not told specifically what happened but it is apparent that something miraculous took place. Simon would never have offered money unless it was truly a remarkable event. Though it does not say specifically it certainly is more than plausible that he heard them speak with tongues. The "gift of tongues" is to be by one or two only. Contradicts Acts except when understood that they are two separate things. Paul also said forbid not to speak with tongues. He also said that he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than ALL of them, indicating that all of them speak with tongues. As I mentioned earlier tongues builds up the individual's faith. Therefore, every individual should speak in tongues and yield themselves to the Holy Ghost. The gift of tongues is intended for the purpose of edifying the body so should be done by relatively few because it is the interpretation that matters in that instance. |
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The gift of tongues is for congregational use,the usage of the gift of tongues differs from initial evidence tongues.
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One could say that when the folks in Acts 2, 8 and 10 received the Holy Ghost, they simply began exercising the Gift of Tongues (1 Cor 12-14). What's also critical to note is that they also "prophesied" which is another Gift of the Spirit. Are you going to say there is a difference between Acts 2 "prophecy" and the gift of the Spirit (prophecy)? You'd have to, if you differentiate between the tongues. |
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I'd say that it is definitely "initial evidence" in that it served as the initial evidence in Acts. However, something can be present without evidence of it's reality. It's the first thing we might look for... but not the only thing. In ancient times "Christians" who were seeking God experienced spiritual "ecstasy" wherein they received visions, were visited by angels, and worked healings and miracles. Some spoke unintelligibly. However, record doesn't show that all did. Therefore, I argue that it is the "initial evidence" we should look for... but not the only evidence. We must be discerning.
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In Acts 2:4 all who received The Holy Ghost baptism spake with tongues,there also is several meanings of the word prophesying. Prophesying can also mean speaking under inspiration or it can be fore telling if you will.In a church service all would not give messages in tongues,that is Paul what meant in 1.Cor.12.
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Justin, I go into this more thoroughly in the Debate Room under Salvation Issues. “The difference in Other Tongues and Unknown Tongues.
The main difference is---Other Tongues is a foreign language. And anyone close by the speaker that understands that language, can interpret it. The purpose? As evidence when a person receives the Holy Ghost. And we are never told of any other evidence of the Holy Ghost, in the Bible. Unknown Tongues---no man understands, unless God gives the interpretation. I believe that Unknown Tongues is God's language. The purpose,... It is our prayer language, in private prayer at home. (It is easier to pray in Unknown tongues than it is to pray in English, or whatever a persons native language is.) It edify's the speaker. Builds up their spirit. We are praying directly to God, and we are speaking mysteries. (It has been my experience, when I spend a lot of time in unknown tongues (Privately) I can write better. Think better. Keep my mind more on spiritual things easier.) When it is spoken at church, it should be one at a time and wait for the interpretation, and then, it becomes Prophecy. Whereas with Other Tongues (people receiving the Holy Ghost) can be by the hundreds if God so chose. Like the 120 at Pentecost. |
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When I PERSONALLY received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues I never doubted tongues after that.
Whether it was another person receiving the Spirit, praying in the Spirit or it was the gift of tongues and interpretation. It always just blesses me way down deep. |
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I also don't see the Disciples embracing the terminology - "prayer language". The instructions do give the idea that the person is speaking to God and not the church body, edifying themselves alone in a quiet and personal manner: "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." I Corinthians 14:4 Again, nothing here indicates the person is not with the church body. I also find that Paul is showing that the speakers involved in tongues and interpretation (I Cor. 14:28) were very well able to control themselves, indicating that they could or should be able to identify between edification of the church body and personal edification. Anyone who has been around Pentecost, for any length of time, knows the difference as well. |
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I am just glad I speak in tongues more than you all. :highfive
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Pressing On, No there is no terminology such as "prayer language." but putting the scriptures together we see that Paul is talking about prayer, as well as edifying the church. " Quote:
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If Paul 'spoke in tongues more than them all, yet didn't speak much in the churches, where did he speak in tongues? I would say, in private, and it would be a prayer language. |
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In I Corinthians 14:5, Paul says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied:" Notice that in the Greek, "rather" is defined to mean, "more, in a greater degree". Paul is saying, "I would that you spoke with tongues, but in a larger degree, that you would prophesy." We, therefore, cannot come to the emphatic conclusion that speaking in tongues is nixed in a church body, other than tongues and interpretation. "More" or "in a greater degree" implies that you are or should be doing more than something else. I Corinthians 14:19, "had rather" is defined differently. It means, "to will, wish" - "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,...", In essence, Paul is saying, "I wish to speak with five words of my understanding." Paul wouldn't give instructions that would contradict each other. He ends the instruction with - 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (40) Let all things be done decently and in order. Earnestly desire to prophesy more, don't forbid anyone to speak in tongues. Let everything be done decently and in order. |
Re: The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence
Originally Posted by renee819
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__________________ Pressing On wrote Quote:
Right! And I don't mean that he did. The Gifts of the Spirit was a new surprise from God to the church. And it seems that many didn't know how to control or handle the gifts. Therefore Paul wrote 1 Cor. 12-13-14 as instructions on how they were to be in self control and yet desire and use the Gifts that God gave. I believe that many were trying to speak in tongues all at the same time, as we see in many Charismatic churches and on TV. They were abusing the Gifts. He wanted them to use them in the church, all of them, including speaking in tongues, because when it is interpreted, it is Prophecy and will edify the church. But he wanted them to speak one at a time and to keep order in the church. The disorder that is reported in some churches, is not of God. But when He told them that he spoke in tongues more than them all. If he did it in the churches, they would have known it, and he wouldn't have had to tell them. Then he told them in the church he would rather speak five words of understanding than to speak in tongues. I believe he was also telling them, to pray in tongues at home. Who doesn't need constantly to have their spirit edified? |
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Again, I Cor 14:5, says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather/more; in a greater degree that ye prophesied:" "More" or "in a greater degree" cannot mean nix it and only pray in tongues at home. Unless we are handing out duct tape at the door, I don't see how someone is going to stop a move of God during a service. |
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I pray many prayers in church that are not audibly discernible in public assembly. This may be with or without tongues. This should be included in this discussion of Paul's admonition of publicly speaking in tongues.
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If we are instructed to speak in tongues in church only in the event of tongues and interpretation, than anyone initially receiving the Holy Ghost wouldn't be able to do that either. |
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I'm not advocating stopping people from speaking in unknown tongues at church. Or anything to stop the flow of the Spirit. But I don't think that all should be speaking in tongues at the same time. We must take the Word for what it means, an not what is popular today. Quote:
When I pray in church, as I said before, it is easier to pray in tongues than in my normal language, but I pray quietly to myself, because, Paul wrote, Quote:
It is evident, is it not, that Paul didn't want them all speaking at the same time. Nor did he pray, in church, in tongues. Therefore you have to ask, where did he pray in tongues more than all of them? And then we look at he scripture that you gave, Quote:
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You appear to be saying: 1) I'm not advocating people stop speaking in unknown tongues in church. 2) When I pray in church, it is easier to pray in tongues than my normal language. 3) Paul never prayed in tongues in church. I think you are using the English translation of "rather" as meaning "to prefer that to", but the Greek is using "more/in a greater degree". Whatever is being said, I want to know what the Greek is saying. |
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Pressing On wrote
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Pressing On wrote, Quote:
I believe it is the latter---”or I am misunderstanding you completely. “ I really don't know how it is confusing. Pressing On wrote Quote:
Pressing On, are you going to a Charismatic Church where all speak in tongues at the same time? Quote:
Renee wrote “but I pray quietly to myself, because, Paul wrote,” 1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. :16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? :17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified To paraphrase, Paul isn't saying that he prays in church, but when he prays n the spirit, he doesn't understand what he is saying, so he will pray with the understanding also. But if he prayed with the Spirit, (since he doesn't know what he is saying and those that hear him don't know either, then how could anyone bless that “seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? “ People were using tongues for Religious Pride, as I've seen many do today. “See, I'm holier than you, because I speak in tongues.” and especially on TV. I can't stand to watch any of those preachers. Quote:
If Paul prayed in tongues in the churches, he could not have written the 16th and 17th verse. Maybe I shouldn't say, he never. Because he may have prayed as I do, quietly to myself. A person sitting next to me, wouldn't even know that I was praying in tongues. Pressing On, what is confusing? Are you saying that all should be speaking in tongues at the same time? |
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The difference is, These Christians in 1 Cor., had already received the Holy Ghost. And now Paul is instructing them, on how to use the Gifts of the Spirit, that God divides between those that are already saved. When people receive the Holy Ghost, whether 2 people or 120, they may all speak at the same time. Because the ONLY reason that they are speaking in Other Tongues---(NOT Unknown Tongues,) was to receive the Holy Ghost. And it does not need to be interpreted. It is the evidence. |
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If you say that Paul "may have" prayed quietly and that you shouldn't say, "never", you cannot also say that Paul only prayed in tongues at home. You cannot say that the chapter stresses that we can only speak in tongues at home. It's not possible that could happen in a spirit filled church. I don't go to a Charismatic church. I do know that if I speak quietly to myself and to God, the person in front of me and beside me are, more than likely, going to hear some utterance. A whisper can still be heard to those close by. Unless, of course, I put my head in a paper sack. The person sitting behind me might hear me. Someone a few rows back probably wouldn't. I do believe we should teach and encourage more to pray that they would be used in the gift of prophecy. From my experience, many don't feel special, worthy, anointed enough or solely inadequate. God can use anyone who is willing. But, also from experience, you can teach that until the cows come home and not get it through a person's head that God desires they would obtain that gift. |
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Forbid not to speak in tongues. Paul just wants order and he wants the gifts to be in evidence. He doesn't want everyone standing around - all the time - every service - edifying themselves and not ministering to the body. That is all he is saying, IMO. |
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How about teaching people to pray in English???
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But bringing this topic back around to its origin...since your understanding of 1 Corinthians 14 seems to line up very closely with my own...how DO we explain Paul's passing comments that insinuate not every believer speaks in tongues? |
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It's apparent that you must have the Spirit to operate in the gifts. And it is apparent in Acts that the evidence was tongues. You can't read in Acts 10:45-46 with Peter and the others being "astonished" that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles stating, "for they heard them speak with tongues." I mean, I could go to the bank with that one passage alone. I could win a court case with that passage. :heeheehee |
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I apologize. I was addressing PO.
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Re: The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence
Originally Posted by renee819
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. Pressing-on wrote, Quote:
Other Tongues----evidence of the Holy Ghost---which is Foreign Languages. If there just happens to be someone there that understands the language, they can interpret. Which is usually praises to God. But no where in the Bible does it say that Other Tongues has to be interpreted. Unknown Tongues---is a gift from God, after a person has received the Holy Ghost. The language is UNKNOWN---- it takes another Gift, the gift of Interpretation for the message to be known. Quote:
“No man understandeth him'----it doesn't matter how many foreign languages, there are among the crowd, NO MAN can understand him. There is one reason to speak in Other Tongues, and that is to receive the Holy Ghost. And should be simple and easy to explain, using Acts 2:4 I see 4 reasons to speak in Unknown Tongues, in 1 Cor. 14. One----You are speaking mysteries. Meaning when you pray in tongues, you are praying the perfect prayer, because it is the Holy Ghost praying thru you. Quote:
Two ----When tongues are interpreted, it becomes Prophecy, and will edify the church. Three---For the unbeliever, when it is interpreted, he sees the mighty power of God. As well the interpretation may even show the secrets of his heart and therefore cause him to repent. Four----For individual edification. It strenghtens the spirit of the one speaking in Unknown Tongues. Pressing-on wrote Quote:
However, the way that a church service is set up, does not leave much room for the Gifts to operate. I would NEVER—NEVER , discourage anyone from using their gifts or to forbid anyone from speaking in tongues, as God directs. However I would discourage a room full of people all speaking in tongues all at the same time. As Paul did also. Unless it was a room full of people all receiving the Holy Ghost. And this is not a contradiction, if you understand the difference. Quote:
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Re: The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence
well said my sister.
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I don't believe I am getting them mixed up. Acts 2:4 (other tongues) and I Cor 14:2;4;13;14;19 and 27 (unknown tongues) use the same Greek definition - G1100 γλῶσσα glōssa gloce'-sah Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue. It would be the same interchangeability as using Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost - same difference. |
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