Apostolic Friends Forum - Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

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Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

I am a member of a Church of God forum. My "signature" is a quote by Dr. Daniel Segraves which reads....

Quote:

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI

It appears at the bottom of any post I make.

This morning I started a thread concerning Tom Delay's conviction being overturned. That is when, out of the blue, one of the other members made this comment on the Tom Delay thread.......

Quote:

You have a statement at the end of each post that says;

Quote:
""It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do."

I believe in God the Father who had a Son.

I believe in Jesus his Son who was while on earth, God in the flesh, completely one in the spirit, yet separate from the Father. Example when he was baptized a dove appeared above Him and a voice from heaven spoke "This is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased". Now he sits on the right hand of God. He was on the earth the Father was in heaven. To me this settles this issue of "oneness".

I believe in the Holy Spirit of God who lives within me.

This to my count is three.

Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. NASB

1.) God sitting on His throne
2.) Jesus at His right hand
3.) Holy Spirit pouring forth this which you both see and hear.

Scripture says my wife and I are one. At times we sure do not act like it but Scripture says we are. That's good enough for me.

I relied to his comment thus....

Quote:

If you'll read the quote on my signature closely, it is a quote of a leading Oneness leader admonishing his Oneness brothers not to falsely accuse Trinitarians of believing in "three gods".

I assume by your comments that you are disagreeing with Dr. Segrave's comment, and that you do believe in three gods. If so, you are not a Trinitarian, but a Tritheist.

This was completely off the subject, and was really a rather strange thing for him to do. The operator of the board as basically banned lengthy Oneness/Trinity debates on that forum, and I try to respect his wishes.

The poster then replied....

From Dictionary.com:

Quote:

Quote:
"belief in three Gods, especially in the doctrine that the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are three distinct Gods, each an independent center of consciousness and determination."

One was distinctly in heaven speaking as another was distinctly being baptized.

One was distinctly sitting on His throne the other distinctly was at his right hand the other was distinctly pouring out blessings.

Now I still don't know if he was quoting the definition of Tritheism or Trinitarianism.

I continued....

Quote:

You really did not answer my point. My signature is an admonition from a leader within the oneness ranks who is correcting those in our movement who accuse Trinitarians of believing in "3 gods". I'm really surprised at your reaction to this. Most on this board would heartily agree with him and applaud him for pointing out that an unfair and untrue accusation has often been made by some oneness believers concerning Trinitarian theology. Your reactions seems to suggest that you disagree with him, and that Trinitarians do actually believe in three gods.

I was merely pointing out how your words are coming across, and trying to get some clarification of your remarks. Do you disagree with Dr. Seagrave's remarks?

Concerning the definition of Trinitarianism you posted from the dictionary, that can mean a thousand different things to a thousand different Trinitarians.

Trinitarians are divided into different schools of thought. Let's look at two, very radically differing views of the Trinity......
Quote:

“What we mean by divine trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead , each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul and personal spirit in the same sense that each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul and spirit. We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and spirit. That soul is that which feels and the spirit is that which knows (Dake, 489).”

Regarding the his view of the trinity, Dake explains further:

Quote:
“As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word like sheep.” (Dake, 489).

The problems inherent in this idea might not be readily apparent to all, but it clearly demonstrates the problem with those who view the godhead as composed of three separate and distinct "persons," with three separate centers of consciousness.

Contrast this with the words of the late Dr. W.A. Criswell, former pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas and past president of the Southern Baptist Convention. In his book, Expository Sermons on Revelation, Criswell, a Trinitarian, shares his understanding of the nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ in radically different terms than those of Dake....

Quote:
“I often wonder at people who think that in Heaven they are going to see three Gods. If you ever see three Gods, then you are not a monotheist, you are a polytheist. You believe in a multiplication of God’s—plural. ‘Hear O, Israel, the Lord our God is One.’ We know God as our Father, we know God as our savior and we know God by His Spirit in our hearts. But there are not three Gods. The true Christian is a monotheist. There is one God. ‘I and my Father are one.’ ‘He that has seen me has seen the Father.’ The Lord God is He that speaks. It is He that John saw when he turned around.
The only God you will ever see is the Lord God whom John saw in the lampstands. The only God you will ever feel is the Lord God’s Spirit in your heart. The only God there is, is the great Father of us all, the one Lord God, Christ. In the Old Testament we call Him Jehovah. In the New Testament, the New Covenant, we call Him Jesus, the One Great God…Never persuade yourself that in glory we are going to look at God No. 1 and God No.2 and God No.3. No! There is one great Lord God. We know Him as our Father, we know Him as our savior, and we know Him as the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
There is one God and this is the great God, called in the Old Testament, Jehovah, and, incarnate, called in the New Testament Jesus, the prince of Heaven, who is coming.” (Criswell. 1961-66. pp238-239).

Professor Alister McGrath is the Principal of the Hall, and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. He studied at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and served in a parish in Nottingham before joining the staff at Wycliffe. He is one of the most widely read and influential Christian writers in the world, and travels extensively to speak at conferences and missions.

Quote:
If you look at the doctrine of the early church during the first two and a half centuries or so, you find that the doctrine of the Trinity has yet to be developed....That development took place in the third or fourth centuries.8
... the New Testament tends to think of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ as much as of God. The Spirit is understood to stand in the closest of possible relationships to Christ, so that his presence among the people of Christ is equivalent to the presence of Christ himself, just as the presence of Christ is treated as being that of God himself. In other words, to encounter the Son is really to encounter the Father and not some demigod or surrogate. To encounter the Spirit is really to encounter the Son and hence the Father. ... To affirm the divinity of Father, Son and Spirit is not to suggest that there are three gods, but simply that the one God can be encountered in these different ways, all of which are equally valid.11

It is not the doctrine of the Trinity which underlies the Christian faith, but the living God whom we encounter through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit ... when we think of God, we don’t think of three individual gods, but of one God whom we experience and encounter in a three-fold manner.18

When you’re trying to explain Christianity to someone, the last thing you’d want to talk about is the trinity. Instead, you might begin by talking about Jesus Christ, about his death on the cross and resurrection, or you might talk about the possibility of encountering or experiencing God here and now.20

I'd like to point out that I did not start this thread, and I'm not trying to have a Oneness debate. Rather, I'm simply trying to get this thread's author to clarify his initial remarks, and to point out that Trinitarian views do differ widely.

That's when another poster jumped in and tried to crash the party. He starts bashing the UPC and tried to hijack the thread. I'll keep you posted. I did check Dictionary.com and he did quote the definition of tritheism!! I bet he got confused and thinks he quoted the definition of 'Trinity'! or perhaps I just encountered my first, real tritheist.

Dictionary.com defines "trinity".......

Quote:

Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

I got in discussion with strict reformist about Baptism, he was insulting the Jesus Name Baptism folks.

I told him that is how I was Baptized and after I gave him my view of the Godhead I was told to repent for holding a Oneness view of the Godhead.

Because I was going to a Trinitarian church that needed to go to the Elders and get counseling.

I can only imagine what he would have said if I told him that I speak in tongues. :heeheehee

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Lol. For the guy bashing the UPCI. Tell him u think COG folk are wonderful people who love God. Ll

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1276665)

Lol. For the guy bashing the UPCI. Tell him u think COG folk are wonderful people who love God. Ll

don't encourage him to lie

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

1.God The Father
2.God The Son
3. God The Holy Spirit

This looks like three Gods to me.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1276659)

I can only imagine what he would have said if I told him that I speak in tongues. :heeheehee

Obviously, he would have rent his garments, gnashed his teeth, and burned you at the stake because you are a witch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1276696)

1.God The Father 2.God The Son 3. God The Holy Spirit This looks like three Gods to me.

1. Spirit
2. Soul
3. Body

Looks like 3 different things, but it's what you are. Are you 3, or 1?

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1276665)

Lol. For the guy bashing the UPCI. Tell him u think COG folk are wonderful people who love God. Ll

:thumbsup

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

I've seen explanations of the Trinity that affirm a basic "oneness" with regards to God's being. I've also seen explanations of the Trinity that are very tritheistic and define the "modes" or "personae" as distinct "beings". We shouldn't paint them with such a wide brush. Many Trinitarians agree with the theological points of Oneness... yet they don't want to abandon the traditional "theological terms".

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Some Trinitarians can be "Oneness" in their logic. For example, I was listening to a Trinitarian explain that the Father is God in transcendence, the Son (Logos) is God expressed within time and space, and that the Spirit is God's very own Spirit working in the spiritual plane. He went on to explain that God never changes and has always existed in this manner. Therefore, there are three distinct centers of consciousness. Each can technically be called a "person" with relation to distinction... yet they are also the same person with relation to being... because they are each the very same being revealed in three ways.

Thus according to Him... God is a single person... yet revealed in three distinct personas/persons that eternally emanate from His being in relation to time, space, and spirit.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

My wifes Mom is Oneness and to this day I try to explain to her our AOG view on the Godhead and that we are oneness also, but she get so hungup by the word "Trinity" that no matter how simple I make it she just cannot get it...

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Seems like some have posted that they have, in fact, heard Trinnies say they believe in three Gods.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Most Trinitarians I've spoken to don't even know what their view of the Godhead really is. They confuse themselves trying to explain it.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1276721)

Most Trinitarians I've spoken to don't even know what their view of the Godhead really is. They confuse themselves trying to explain it.

Yep. A lot of them (us, back in the day) don't even know there is an issue. I never heard of Oneness until I heard about it on the radio. The Bible Answer Man, probably.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

When I was growing up I was told how "nasty" guacamole is. My mother and father both wouldn't touch it. When I got older and I tried it with a TON of relucantcy but guess what, I loved it! It is literally one of my favorite foods or condiments. My point is that anyone can be trained to think and feel something is wrong. However, once they are old enough to actually examine all the evidence and even taste the product it could potentially change one's "taste."

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1276721)

Most Trinitarians I've spoken to don't even know what their view of the Godhead really is. They confuse themselves trying to explain it.

as with most oneness

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976 (Post 1276710)

dude if you would just baptize right we wouldnt care! LOL!

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1276708)

about 20 years ago, I was listening to the Radio and I heard this guy going down a pretty solid Oneness doctrinal explination. I actually sat in my car and was late for a class listening to him. It was pretty much what is generally taught in most Oneness churches. When he got to the end he said something along the lines of "and that's the Trinity"!

LOL! I just about fell out right there. He was the pastor of the largest AOG church in Lake Charles La. and he is/was certainly Trinitarian but beyond a handfull of catch phrases, he wasnt far from what most Oneness preachers teach!

at the end of the day, it just almost boils down to how one baptizes and if one thinks baptism even matters.

For me, it matters. It is vastly more important that most folk think.

Now I will certainly sharpstick AFF Trinitarians with little poems and all that but seriously there are more Oneness Trinitarians than i can shake a stick at! LOL

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1276742)

dude if you would just baptize right we wouldnt care! LOL!

:heeheehee

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Ferd, we baptise in Jesus Name believe it or not...lol

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1276696)

1.God The Father
2.God The Son
3. God The Holy Spirit

This looks like three Gods to me.

The trinitarian view on the godhead makes little to no sense and is unbiblical. God the father God the son God the holy spirit are not biblical terms. Either is co-equal co-eternal. Either is trinity.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1276708)

Person in relation to GOD is not a biblical term.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Alexander Campbell on the Trinity: (Campbell started what would later be the church of Christ groups)

Quote:

But we shall go on to specify a sample of those Babylonish terms and phrases which must be purified from the Christian vocabulary, before the saints can understand the religion they profess, or one another as fellow disciples. I select these from the approved standards of the most popular establishments; for from these they have become current and sacred style. Such are the following: "Trinity. First, second, and third person in the adorable Trinity: God the Son; and God the Holy Ghost. Eternal Son. The Son is eternally begotten by the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. The divinity of Jesus Christ; the humanity of Jesus Christ; the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This he said as man; and that as God.
...

For instance, the terms Trinity, first and second person of--Eternal Son, and the eternal procession of the Spirit, are now the fixed style in speaking of God, his Son Jesus Christ, and of the Spirit, in reference to their "personal character." Now this is not the style of the oracles of God. It is all human, and may be as freely criticized as one of the numbers of the Spectator.

...

These terms originate new doctrines. Thus the term "trinity" gives rise to the doctrine of the trinity. And what fierce controversies have originated out of this doctrine! How many creeds and martyrs has it made! Courteous and pious reader, would it not be as wise, as humble, and as modest, too, for us, on such topics, to prefer the words of the Holy Spirit, and to speak of God, his Son, and Spirit, as the apostles did. Moreover, these terms do not help our conceptions of God at all. They rather impede than facilitate our understanding the divine oracles. It is more difficult to conceive of an eternal Son eternally begotten, and of a Spirit eternally proceeding, than to understand anything God has ever spoken to men. And see on what a slender thread those distinctions hang! Because Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would send them the Spirit, which Spirit would or was to proceed from his Father, or to be sent forth by his Father as well as by himself; therefore the schoolmen affirm that the Spirit eternally proceeded, or was eternally coming from the Father!! This is the whole thread on which this "doctrine" hangs.

From The Ancient Order of Things, "Extract from the Minutes of the Baptist Missionary Association of Kentucky, began and held at the Town-Fork
Meeting House, in Fayette county, on Saturday, the 11th September, 1824."

http://www.outrageouscampbellite.com...-of-Things.pdf

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by odooley6985 (Post 1276769)

Person in relation to GOD is not a biblical term.

Actually it is -

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:3

Of course, it speaks of Christ being the image of HIS person, and thus the term person (hypostasis) is used in the singular in regard to God, not the plural.

:icecream

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976 (Post 1276749)

Ferd, we baptise in Jesus Name believe it or not...lol

Fantastic! That is awsome!

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by odooley6985 (Post 1276769)

Person in relation to GOD is not a biblical term.

True. But I think you get the point.

Re: Strange dialog with a Trinitarian (L)

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