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Originalist 10-12-2013 08:14 PM

Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
A copy of a sermon by a Unitarian pentecostal who does worship Jesus as God. If more Unitarians held to this view, I would not have a big problem with them.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Quote:

I'd like us all to turn to Acts chapter eight, and read verses 26-35. This is the very familiar story of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch.

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”

27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,

28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet.

29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[b]

34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.



I've often wondered what I would have said to this man had I been in Philips's shoes. Yet we do see that Phillip preached Christ to this man, in part at least, using the same passage he was reading that Isaiah had penned so many hundreds of years previously. The following is a dramatized version of what Phillip might have said to him.....




"Notice that this passage in Isaiah begins with a question, “Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?”Let me tell you about the “arm of Jehovah”. Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. One God in One Person, with one Spirit and one image, the Angel of His presence As Job asked, “Will you accept His person? Will you contend for Elohim?”The Angel of Jehovah appeared to our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Moses saw Him at the burning bush and hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon Elohim. There he revealed His Name to be Jehovah forever, unto all generations. David has declared that the Name of Jehovah is excellent. This same Angel showed Himself to David, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc.

Hidden from us in the scriptures was God’s intent to add humanity to His divine image. Yet He left us clues. Abraham and Joshua saw Him in the form of a man. A man wrestled with Jacob and prevailed not against him. So he blessed him and changed his name to Israel. As it written, “And Jacob called the place ‘Peniel’: for I have seen God face to face.” As wrote that Jacob, “had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed."Abraham had to wait twenty five years for the son God had promised him, and through Isaac he became the father of many nations. He also made his the heir of all that he had. This is a figure of the eons that Jehovah waited for His Son, through whom He will become the Father of a multitude of born again sons and daughters.
He made His son the heir of all things and you can become a joint heir.

As Isaiah wrote, “therefore Adonai Himself will give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name ‘Immanuel’”. This was fulfilled many years ago when the Spirit of Jehovah overshadowed virgin girl named Mary, who conceived and gave birth to God’s only begotten Son. As the second Psalm has declared, “thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.” Jehovah became God the Father when His Son was born in Bethlehem, out which Micah prophesied that a ruler in Israel would come.

By His own decree His son was to be called Jesus, Jehovah-Savior. The father gave His only excellent Name of Jehovah to His only begotten Son. This baby was God with us, for he was God manifest in flesh. The angel of Jehovah was hidden in Him. Thus we now have Divinity covered by humanity, one God inside one man, the Father joined to and indwelling inside His son. This is the true tabernacle that Jehovah pitched., and not man. The Son is the arm of Jehovah, His own flesh.

Isaiah further spoke of this man when he wrote, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given……and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, and the Everlasting Father." The man without is the Prince of Peace, the Son of king Jehovah.

The child grew in stature and wisdom and in favor with God and man. At age thirty He was consecrated as a Priest and anointed with His Father’s Spirit before beginning His ministry. As it is written, “The Spirit of Adonai Jehovah is upon me, because Jehovah has anointed me.” He was now the Christ, the anointed of the second Psalm, the Messiah of Daniel. He went forth in the power of the Spirit to heal the multitudes, cast out demons, perform miracles, and preach the Kingdom of God. He said, “the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. And again, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” This fulfilled Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the temple when he asked, “but will Elohim indeed dwell with men on earth?”

But it pleased Jehovah to bruise Him”. As David declared, “Salvation is of Jehovah”. Jesus of Nazareth was without sin, and thus the perfect sacrifice for our sins. None else could redeem us. Thus Jehovah stretched forth His arm of humanity to save us, and that man freely died in our stead, the just for the unjust. Wicked men with cruel hands nailed Jesus to a tree. The Jews rejected their King. He was crucified as the Lamb of God to take away our sins, which the blood of animals could never do. He suffered the agonies prophesied in the twenty-second Psalm. "I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax: It is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and Thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and feet.

This also fulfilled Jehovah’s proclamation in Zechariah, “They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM”. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

Jesus gave up the ghost and died. But God raised him from the dead the third day, for David had prophesied, “Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy One to see corruption, “ He ascended into Heaven, as David foresaw, “Elohim is gone up with a shout, Jehovah with the sound of a trumpet.” This same Jesus shall return in like manner.

This man is now seated on Heaven’s throne at the Father’s right hand of power, presence, and favor. All power has been given to Him in Heaven and Earth. The image of the Father dwells in Him, for in Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. God has highly exalted Him, made Him head over all things, and given Him a Name that is above every name. At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, as Jehovah swore by Himself, “That unto ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear”. Again, as it is written, “The Stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner.”After Jesus was glorified, Jehovah joined the Son’s human spirit to His divine Spirit. Now the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of the Father and the Son, is poured out on all flesh, as Joel prophesied.


We look for the return of the great God, even Jehovah, and our Savior, Jesus Christ, even a man born of a virgin and God. Then, as it is written, “One shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in thy hands? Then He shall answer, I was wounded in the house of my friends.” Behold the man Christ Jesus! He’ll be your Savior and Judge! He’s the arm of Jehovah, God’s only Son. Believe on him and you will be saved, for he is God’s provision. Repent and be baptized in his Name, and your sins will be forgiven. Then you shall receive the gift of His Spirit, breathing into you everlasting life. "

And all of god's people said Amen!

seekerman 10-12-2013 08:23 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
A Unitarian pentecostal?

Originalist 10-12-2013 08:49 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281364)
A Unitarian pentecostal?

I hope this article helps you and other Unitarians see the truth concerning the glorification of the son and your great error in not giving him the worship his Father demands.

seekerman 10-12-2013 08:52 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281371)
I hope this article helps you and other Unitarians the truth concerning the glorification of the son and your great error in not giving him the worship his Father demands.

Oh, I reverence Jesus the Son of God. I just don't worship Him as God, I worship the same God that He and His brethern worship.

Originalist 10-12-2013 09:06 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281372)
Oh, I reverence Jesus the Son of God. I just don't worship Him as God, I worship the same God that He and His brethern worship.


I hope this article helps you and other Unitarians see the truth concerning the glorification of the Son and your great error in not giving him the worship his Father demands.

seekerman 10-12-2013 10:07 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281375)
I hope this article helps you and other Unitarians see the truth concerning the glorification of the Son and your great error in not giving him the worship his Father demands.

I just worship the God Jesus worships.

renee819 10-13-2013 05:04 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Originalist, That is a great Oneness message.

I wonder why that preacher is a Unitarian? Is it because that he believes that every one will be saved?
Is a Unitarian and a Universalist the same?

Originalist 10-13-2013 06:42 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by renee819 (Post 1281385)
Originalist, That is a great Oneness message.

I wonder why that preacher is a Unitarian? Is it because that he believes that every one will be saved?
Is a Unitarian and a Universalist the same?


Not all Unitarians are of the universalist mindset.

Originalist 10-13-2013 06:42 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281377)
I just worship the God Jesus worships.


You don't understand how the God of Jesus wants to be worshiped.

seekerman 10-13-2013 07:04 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281389)
You don't understand how the God of Jesus wants to be worshiped.

Following Jesus' example is the best way.

Originalist 10-13-2013 07:32 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281390)
Following Jesus' example is the best way.

Following the directives of his Father would be best.

seekerman 10-13-2013 09:08 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281392)
Following the directives of his Father would be best.

He only says what His Father says. He and His Father are one.

Originalist 10-13-2013 10:59 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281396)
He only says what His Father says. He and His Father are one.


So when his Father said "Thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee", did Jesus repeat those words?

Get real, Seekerman. why not do something novel, like actually reading this sermonette I posted and see where this guy is coming from? Then ,point by point, tell us where you agree or disagree.

Praxeas 10-13-2013 02:01 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281372)
Oh, I reverence Jesus the Son of God. I just don't worship Him as God, I worship the same God that He and His brethern worship.

You reverence Jesus the Son of God as what? a man? an angel?

seekerman 10-13-2013 03:39 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281402)
So when his Father said "Thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee", did Jesus repeat those words?

He spoke the words His Father directed Him to speak.....

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I'm not sure if His Father told Him to speak those words or not, there's no record of Him speaking them.

Quote:

Get real, Seekerman. why not do something novel, like actually reading this sermonette I posted and see where this guy is coming from? Then ,point by point, tell us where you agree or disagree.
I'll certainly respond to your personal posts, but as I've said many times on the forum, I'm not going to respond to someone else's thoughts and beliefs. If you wish to post whatever you consider important in the sermon, point by point, I'll respond to them.

seekerman 10-13-2013 03:40 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1281418)
You reverence Jesus the Son of God as what? a man? an angel?

Didn't we have a veryyyyyyyyyy long discussion on this not long ago?

To refresh your memory, I view Jesus as a type of angelic being for lack of a better description. Remember?

Praxeas 10-13-2013 03:42 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281428)
Didn't we have a veryyyyyyyyyy long discussion on this not long ago?

To refresh your memory, I view Jesus as a type of angelic being for lack of a better description. Remember?

So Originalist, Seeker is not a Unitarian. He is an Arian.

seekerman 10-13-2013 03:47 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1281429)
So Originalist, Seeker is not a Unitarian. He is an Arian.

I thought y'all knew that.

Originalist 10-13-2013 03:59 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman (Post 1281430)
I thought y'all knew that.

Even if he is, he is still not worshiping the Son as the Father commands. You could be a Unitarian or even an Arian and give the Son the worship the Father wants him to have.

seekerman 10-13-2013 04:00 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281431)
Even if he is, he is still not worshiping the Son as the Father commands. You could be a Unitarian or even an Arian and give the Son the worship the Father wants him to have.

Scripturally speaking, what worship does the Father want Jesus to have?

votivesoul 10-16-2013 12:55 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
It doesn't seem to me that this preacher worships Jesus as God. He never calls Jesus God (though he did say God added to His divine nature). He didn't say God became human, either. Rather, he stated that God indwelt the man Jesus Christ, and that this man now sits at the right hand of the Father.

What makes him a Unitarian is that he believes God is uni-personal, but not in the way most Oneness believers do. He may or may not be a Universalist.

Unitarians do not believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father, or is divine in any other way.

They believe that God is one, but that He did not trans-substantiate His nature in order to become human (i.e. divine eternal Spirit into human temporal flesh).

That is, what was, is, and will be about God never changes. God was in Christ, but God was not Christ. Basically, the man Christ Jesus is only that, a man (sinless, yes, and born of a virgin without a human father, as well), and God the Father is only that, God, completely distinct from one another.

Praxeas 10-16-2013 01:42 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
How do we know this person is a Unitarian?

votivesoul 10-16-2013 02:19 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
I guess we are taking Originalist's word for it. Maybe he can supply a link for proof?

Originalist 10-16-2013 05:01 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1281815)
It doesn't seem to me that this preacher worships Jesus as God. He never calls Jesus God (though he did say God added to His divine nature). He didn't say God became human, either. Rather, he stated that God indwelt the man Jesus Christ, and that this man now sits at the right hand of the Father.

What makes him a Unitarian is that he believes God is uni-personal, but not in the way most Oneness believers do. He may or may not be a Universalist.

Unitarians do not believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father, or is divine in any other way.

They believe that God is one, but that He did not trans-substantiate His nature in order to become human (i.e. divine eternal Spirit into human temporal flesh).



That is, what was, is, and will be about God never changes. God was in Christ, but God was not Christ. Basically, the man Christ Jesus is only that, a man (sinless, yes, and born of a virgin without a human father, as well), and God the Father is only that, God, completely distinct from one another.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Rather than believing that God became a man, this brother taught that God added the Son to his own divine being. Thus when we worship the Son, we worship the Father automatically.



Quote:

The image of the Father dwells in Him, for in Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. God has highly exalted Him, made Him head over all things, and given Him a Name that is above every name. At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, as Jehovah swore by Himself, “That unto ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear”.
Quote:

We look for the return of the great God, even Jehovah, and our Savior, Jesus Christ, even a man born of a virgin and God. Then, as it is written, “One shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in thy hands? Then He shall answer, I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

Praxeas 10-16-2013 12:40 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Can we have a link to the source please? Name?

Originalist 10-16-2013 12:58 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1281874)
Can we have a link to the source please? Name?

Truthfully, that is not possible. The message above is from the notes of a manuscript of a book that was never printed. The author died more than 12 years ago. I never actually met him. A mutual friend gave me a copy of the rough draft of the manuscript.

I would describe this brother as a Oneness/Unitarian hybrid. He did not believe that "God became a man", but that God fully incarnated himself in someone else, namely his human Son, and that the only God one will ever encounter is in the person of Jesus Christ.

Esaias 10-16-2013 01:47 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281879)
Truthfully, that is not possible. The message above is from the notes of a manuscript of a book that was never printed. The author died more than 12 years ago. I never actually met him. A mutual friend gave me a copy of the rough draft of the manuscript.

I would describe this brother as a Oneness/Unitarian hybrid. He did not believe that "God became a man", but that God fully incarnated himself in someone else, namely his human Son, and that the only God one will ever encounter is in the person of Jesus Christ.

Luther, a trinitarian, believed the only God anyone will see is Jesus Christ, did he not?

If he was a unitarian, he could not believe 'God incarnated himself', it would seem.

Originalist 10-16-2013 01:50 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1281887)
Luther, a trinitarian, believed the only God anyone will see is Jesus Christ, did he not?

If he was a unitarian, he could not believe 'God incarnated himself', it would seem.

Sometimes it is hard to find the right term.

Praxeas 10-16-2013 02:03 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281879)
Truthfully, that is not possible. The message above is from the notes of a manuscript of a book that was never printed. The author died more than 12 years ago. I never actually met him. A mutual friend gave me a copy of the rough draft of the manuscript.

I would describe this brother as a Oneness/Unitarian hybrid. He did not believe that "God became a man", but that God fully incarnated himself in someone else, namely his human Son, and that the only God one will ever encounter is in the person of Jesus Christ.

I have no idea what "fully incarnated himself in someone else" means. To incarnate is to become human

Originalist 10-16-2013 02:18 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1281890)
I have no idea what "fully incarnated himself in someone else" means. To incarnate is to become human

Again, I'm probably not using the right term. What do you call a doctrine that teaches that God ADDED the man Christ Jesus to his own being, adding humanity to his deity?

Esaias 10-16-2013 05:30 PM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1281893)
What do you call a doctrine that teaches that God ADDED the man Christ Jesus to his own being, adding humanity to his deity?

Hypostatic union, which most Oneness and Trinitarian believers adhere to.

Definition of chalcedon, essentially - God added to himself a complete human nature, fully human, a complete human being - yet in such a way as not to create two persons, rather one person subsisting in two natures.

If by 'added the man' he means God (one person) added another person - albeit human - then he seems to be 'Nestorian' - the idea that God added a complete human nature person and all to himself, thus two persons in one Christ.

Personally, I think most of these disputes are the result of excess philosophical baggage from the Nicene era. We box ourselves into a paradigm and then have to explain things and we wind up sounding like a bunch of ignorant bishops glorying in our 'theological exactness' while missing the whole point.

Seems to me the bible is pretty clear - God is one, and God was manifested in the flesh, became flesh - ie human. And 'without controversy' this is a 'great mystery'. The man Jesus Christ is our 'great God and savior.'

votivesoul 10-17-2013 01:11 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
I've seen two definitions of incarnation, incarnate, incarnated, etc.

I've seen the "become/became flesh" view (usually based off of John 1:1, 14), but I've also seen the "located within flesh" view (usually based off of John 14:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17), but not actually flesh, i.e. the same way your soul is incarnated but not actually flesh.

Personally, I tend to lean toward the second view when I think of the word.

votivesoul 10-17-2013 01:13 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Esaias said,

Quote:

Personally, I think most of these disputes are the result of excess philosophical baggage from the Nicene era. We box ourselves into a paradigm and then have to explain things and we wind up sounding like a bunch of ignorant bishops glorying in our 'theological exactness' while missing the whole point.
Here, here! I like this. :)

seekerman 10-17-2013 01:43 AM

Re: Unitarians who worship Jesus as God
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1281935)
Seems to me the bible is pretty clear - God is one, and God was manifested in the flesh, became flesh - ie human. And 'without controversy' this is a 'great mystery'. The man Jesus Christ is our 'great God and savior.'

If the bible was pretty clear there'd not a plethora of Christian denominations teaching different things but all using the same scripture to prove they're right.


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